Open Theism

[servant4ever]

OK everyone,

Since this thread is going no where, we are just going back and forth with the same verses, I have another question for you guys. I have to admit I attend the church where Greg Boyd is Senior Pastor, that is not why I am an open theist, I attended there last year while I was in the middle. Do you think it is wrong for a, let's just say, a Calvinist to attend the church, even though Boyd is an Open Theist? Boyd does not talk about Open Theism at all, He just talks on how we should live the Christian life. Right now he is doing a series on Racial Reconciliation. Do you think it is alright for a non-open theist to attend a church with an open-theist pastor that does not talk about Open Theism? I personally think it is alright (I already feel the responses) because it is a Christian Church, and they are showing the love of Jesus Christ to the community, they are reaching the inner-city people. The doctrine of the church doesn't have one standing on the foreknowledge debate. I like the atmosphere of the church, I have never felt so welcomed at another church, some people offered to give up their seat for me (the whole worship center was packed, people were sitting in the aisles) the first time I attended there.

servant4ever

 

[Breetai]

Servant, I completely agree with you. If the gospel about Jesus Christ is preached, and you feel comfortable and welcome there, then by all means attend. No church is going to agree 100% with someones beliefs. All that matters is that Christ is at the center of the church.

 

[rnmomof7]

OK everyone,

Since this thread is going no where, we are just going back and forth with the same verses, I have another question for you guys. I have to admit I attend the church where Greg Boyd is Senior Pastor, that is not why I am an open theist, I attended there last year while I was in the middle. Do you think it is wrong for a, let's just say, a Calvinist to attend the church, even though Boyd is an Open Theist? Boyd does not talk about Open Theism at all, He just talks on how we should live the Christian life. Right now he is doing a series on Racial Reconciliation. Do you think it is alright for a non-open theist to attend a church with an open-theist pastor that does not talk about Open Theism? I personally think it is alright (I already feel the responses) because it is a Christian Church, and they are showing the love of Jesus Christ to the community, they are reaching the inner-city people. The doctrine of the church doesn't have one standing on the foreknowledge debate. I like the atmosphere of the church, I have never felt so welcomed at another church, some people offered to give up their seat for me (the whole worship center was packed, people were sitting in the aisles) the first time I attended there.

servant4ever

Personally I believe Christ should be preached not social topics. We will be conformed to the image of Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit.
We are changed from the inside out.




Having said that , as a Calvinist there are many Arminian pastors that I love to hear preach like Chuck Swindol , Mcgee, etc. We share the same basic doctrine and they preach Christ .

I live in the "burned over " district. There are very few reformed churches, but I did make the decision to leave my Wesleyan church and to go to a Reformed church .Our Soteriology does sometimes influence the way certain scriptures are preached , but if that was not a choice I would be very comfortable in a Baptist church .I attended a Pentecostal Bible school for some classes . The professor always called me the token Calvinist and he would sometimes look at me just waiting for a response ..we ended up friends. He is my brother in Christ.

When I am away, I go to church with my Baptist son or with my other son to his seeker friendly church .

But would I go to a church that teaches Open Theism ? No not even on a visit . I consider it a heresy of the first degree , I will not attend a church that steals the glory from God by redefining His nature and attributes, no matter how good the music or friendly the people..

I am not making any judgments on their salvation , I am sure that there are saved people their , but out of the mouth the heart speaks ..so I am very cautious what goes into my ears :>))

 

[servant4ever]

Hello rnmomof7,

Personally I believe Christ should be preached not social topics. We will be conformed to the image of Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit.
We are changed from the inside out.

That is what the church is being taught, we need to realize that Christ loves all, so should we.

Having said that , as a Calvinist there are many Arminian pastors that I love to hear preach like Chuck Swindol , Mcgee, etc. We share the same basic doctrine and they preach Christ .

I live in the "burned over " district. There are very few reformed churches, but I did make the decision to leave my Wesleyan church and to go to a Reformed church .Our Soteriology does sometimes influence the way certain scriptures are preached , but if that was not a choice I would be very comfortable in a Baptist church .I attended a Pentecostal Bible school for some classes . The professor always called me the token Calvinist and he would sometimes look at me just waiting for a response ..we ended up friends. He is my brother in Christ.

When I am away, I go to church with my Baptist son or with my other son to his seeker friendly church .

But would I go to a church that teaches Open Theism ? No not even on a visit . I consider it a heresy of the first degree , I will not attend a church that steals the glory from God by redefining His nature and attributes, no matter how good the music or friendly the people..

I am not making any judgments on their salvation , I am sure that there are saved people their , but out of the mouth the heart speaks ..so I am very cautious what goes into my ears :>))

I am not saying that the church he is pastor at teaches Open Theism. He does not talk about Open Theism constantly. Of all the times I have attended there, every week since late August, I have only heard of him talk about it for 5 minutes in a message on God's love. He also didn't state it as you have to believe this or your going to hell, he stated it as that is what he believes. The doctrine of the church states that they have no standing on God's foreknowledge. (http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_151.htm)

Have a blessed day,

servant4ever

 

[rnmomof7]

Hello rnmomof7,



That is what the church is being taught, we need to realize that Christ loves all, so should we.

I could present scripture that God does not love all men , but that does not address the point. We are under no obligation to love Hitler or Jeffery Dalmher , however we are to treat all men with respect as creations of God

I am not saying that the church he is pastor at teaches Open Theism. He does not talk about Open Theism constantly.

No one can not teach in accordance with their basic beliefs and principles.He believes that God does not know everything .
That causes him to approach salvation and prayer very differently than a Protestant that believes God is immutable.
As an example..his theology in the end means that God does not see our sin , because our sin affects the outcome of many events.
I on the other hand believe not a bird falls from the sky without Gods permission. I would remind my children that nothing they do is out side the sight of God. He could not honestly teach that as it is contrary to his theology . He would also have a problem with miracles

This all reflects in his teaching.

Of all the times I have attended there, every week since late August, I have only heard of him talk about it for 5 minutes in a message on God's love. He also didn't state it as you have to believe this or your going to hell, he stated it as that is what he believes. The doctrine of the church states that they have no standing on God's foreknowledge. (http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_151.htm)

Have a blessed day,

servant4ever

The statement is very typical of too many churches today ..they would rather compromise than to take a stand .

We affirm the omniscience of God with regard to the past, present and future.*


No they do not..it is deceptive because they do not believe that God has perfect knowledge this means God is not Omniscient.


We also recognize the current disagreement among evangelical Christians about the biblical data regarding the content of the future that God perfectly knows.* All views hold that God is omniscient, but some interpret this to mean that God knows all things that shall come to pass, while others hold that the future is not completely there to know.*

He robs Gods sovereignty with this statement making man the author of history and prophecy. It make for a God that reacts to man.
He makes all prophecy a lie.


Within the bounds of the whole-hearted affirmation of God's omniscience, we recognize both positions as legitimate evangelical options.*

This is an impossibility , only one can be true. There is no compromise on this . Either God is sovereign over His creation or He is not .
He has distorted the definition of Omniscience that historical Christianity has held


As a local church, we hold no single position on this issue.* As with many issues within the church today, we encourage ‘unity in the essential things, freedom in the non-essential things, and agape-love in all things.

Compromising the word of God to fill pews will never be blessed.

It is essential to have agreement on the word of God , there are not two positions , There is only one way ,not many .

BTW That statement "unity in essentials ..etc " comes from the restoration movement where churches decided to choose what ever doctrine they wanted..It ranged from denial of the divinity of the holy Spirit to the necessity of Baptism to be saved.It was based on Unity so they had no creeds. Several cults like the Christadelphians grew out of that Theological disorder .

If you have never heard of it here is a basic overview. I get very nervous when I see their theme used in a faith statement

http://www.abc-coggc.org/COGGC/gcpublications/jrad/JRAD 10-1-3.htm

Servent just remember the only saying ..the only thing in the middle of the road is road kill :>))

 

[Breetai]

Found in Matthew 26
I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."
But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you."
And all the other disciples said the same.

Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said.
But he denied it before them all. "I don't know what you're talking about," he said.
Then he went out to the gateway, where another girl saw him and said to the people there, "This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth."
He denied it again, with an oath: "I don't know the man!"
After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, "Surely you are one of them, for your accent gives you away."
Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!"
Immediately a rooster crowed. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.

There is NO WAY that God, as he is preached about in open-theism, could have known that Peter would deny him three times. Only an omniscient God would be able to have accurately predicted that.

 

[Dan1824]

Do you think it is wrong for a, let's just say, a Calvinist to attend the church, even though Boyd is an Open Theist? Boyd does not talk about Open Theism at all, He just talks on how we should live the Christian life. Right now he is doing a series on Racial Reconciliation. Do you think it is alright for a non-open theist to attend a church with an open-theist pastor that does not talk about Open Theism?

Open Theism is another gospel, and should be turned away from by all those who hold dear the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As say the scriptures:

Exodus 23:2 - Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil;

Psalm 1:1 - Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Psalm 119:63 - I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

Proverbs 24:1 - Be not thou envious against evil men, neither desire to be with them.

Prov 4:14,15 - Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.

Proverbs 13:20 - He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.


Isaiah 1:16 - Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Jer 4:14 -O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved.

Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Ephesians 5:6,7 -Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Hebrews 13:9 - Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

2 John 1:10 - If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Revelation 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[servant4ever]

Hello Dan,

Open Theism is NOT teaching another gospel. It is a Christian belief. The main focus is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the truth that we all need to focus on. Since you assume that Open Theism is different from what your specific beliefs, then it is false, and evil. It is shown in the Bible, you CAN NOT deny that. The Holy Bible, the scriptures all of us Christians use, shows that God does change His mind, He does regret things (2 Kings 20 & Genesis 6). It also shows that God does predistine things, so both doctrines are shown within the Bible, so it is NOT another Gospel. This is near the same thing as the "once saved, always saved" and the "lose your salvation" debate. If you believe in once saved, always saved, is it is different gospel if a person believes a person can lose their salvation? No, of COURSE NOT! It is the same thing with this, since you don't believe this, so what, the main thing to get right is calling on the name of the Lord, which is Jesus Christ. Open Theism is not a cult, it is a Christian belief. I do not claim I am following Greg Boyd, I am following Jesus Christ. I do not consider the book God of the Possible part of the scriptures. I believe in Jesus Christ, the author and perfector of MY faith.

Have a great evening,

servant4ever

Have a great evening,

servant4ever.

 

[rnmomof7]

Hello Dan,

Open Theism is NOT teaching another gospel. It is a Christian belief. The main focus is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the truth that we all need to focus on. Since you assume that Open Theism is different from what your specific beliefs, then it is false, and evil. It is shown in the Bible, you CAN NOT deny that. The Holy Bible, the scriptures all of us Christians use, shows that God does change His mind, He does regret things (2 Kings 20 & Genesis 6).

Did you ever read my post? I pointed out that if it was not they God was lying to David and the prophecy of the Messiah coming from the line of David was a lie and so was the covenant with Abraham.

So you have your choice was God lying to them and breaking His covenants with them? Or was it always a plan of God that Hezekiah should live and produce an heir to the throne of David..

Think this through again .


Look at the prayer of the King

2Ki 20:3**
I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done [that which is] good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

He did not beg to be spared at all.He begged to be remembered by God .

Perhaps we could liken this prayer to the prayer of the thief.."remember me when you come into your kingdom". He was frightened to die as are most men, He had no heir (thus the admonition to put his house in order.)


If you look through the OT you see that prophets were to warn, and to get people to change their ways. This illness brought the king to prayer.

Think of the result of His prayer . He asked for a sign , God gave him a miraculous sign that was seen by the Babylonians .

The sun cast would go backwards instead of forwards . The son of the King of Babylon had heard of Hezekiah's illness and healing, and the "scientists" of Babylon observed the sun changing directions , so Babylon sent messengers with a gift and instructions to find out what happened to Hezekiah's God. Hezekiah was feeling so good about his recovery and the interest of the Babylonians that he decided to show them all the wealth of his country.

Was that sign preordained?

During these extra 15 years the seeds for the ultimate destruction of Judah are planted and Hezekiah's evil successor is born. This led to a plundering of Judah and their captivity .

Now look at the lineage of Jesus.

Remember that Hezekiah had NO Heirs , NO son . If he had died at the time of the prophecy he would have ended the line of David from which the savior came.

See the prophecy of Christ

Luk 1:32**
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

**
*
Luk 1:33**
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.



Without those 15 years (and the son born during that time ) there would have been no Kingdom without end

Mat 1:10**
Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, and Amon the father of Josiah.

Mat 1:11**
Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon


So was this an ordained work of Mercy and grace?

I think it clearly was as it was a part of the fulfillment of the prophecies an not coincidental or the act of a fickle God that has no set plan .

On Genesis 6 Matthew Henry notes this

. It does not imply any change of God’s mind; for he is in one mind, and who can turn him? With him there is not variableness. But it expressed a change of his way. When God had made man upright, he rested and was refreshed (Ex. 31:17), and his way towards him was such as showed he was pleased with the work of his own hands; but, now that man had apostatized, he could not do otherwise than show himself displeased; so that the change was in man, not in God. God repented that he had made man; but we never find him repenting that he redeemed man (though that was a work of much greater expense), because special and effectual grace is given to secure the great ends of redemption; so that those gifts and callings are without repentance, Rom. 11:29.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown says this


5, 6. God saw it .*.*. repented .*.*. grieved--God cannot change ( Mal 3:6 Jam 1:17 ); but, by language suited to our nature and experience, He is described as about to alter His visible procedure towards mankind--from being merciful and long-suffering, He was about to show Himself a God of judgment; and, as that impious race had filled up the measure of their iniquities, He was about to introduce a terrible display of His justice ( Ecc 8:11 ).

There can never be an ultimate truth

hn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It also shows that God does predistine things, so both doctrines are shown within the Bible, so it is NOT another Gospel.

Unfortunately it is another gospel , it removes from God his immutability and His omniscience.
Do you know what anthropomorphism is ? Many cults have been formed because they do not understand them and pick and choose what ones are true and what is literature.

This is near the same thing as the "once saved, always saved" and the "lose your salvation" debate. If you believe in once saved, always saved, is it is different gospel if a person believes a person can lose their salvation? No, of COURSE NOT! It is the same thing with this, since you don't believe this, so what, the main thing to get right is calling on the name of the Lord, which is Jesus Christ.

That is not a debate about the nature of God .
Open theism is

Open Theism is not a cult, it is a Christian belief. I do not claim I am following Greg Boyd, I am following Jesus Christ. I do not consider the book God of the Possible part of the scriptures. I believe in Jesus Christ, the author and perfector of MY faith.

Under Boyds theology the author of your faith might erase the chapter that
offers men salvation and decide to destroy the world by a flood..(forget the rainbow..that covenant means nothing ) . You can have no confidence in your salvation because according to Boyd. The author of Boyd's salvation writes in pencil

At any time God could change His mind and break covenants or promises .
It is a very sad thing that one that calls himself a christian does not believe in an ultimate truth ..what a hopeless pessimistic faith

Either God is faithful to His word or he is not.

Did he lie here ?

1Sa 15:29**
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he [is] not a man, that he should repent.

or here?



Mal 3:6**
For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed

or here?

Mic 7:20**
Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, [and] the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

or here?

Hbr 6:18**
That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

or here?


Jam 1:17**
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

or here ?

**
*
Luk 21:33**
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

or here?

Rom 11:29**
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

or here?

Tts 1:2**
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

[Crazy Liz]

Did you ever read my post? I pointed out that if it was not they God was lying to David and the prophecy of the Messiah coming from the line of David was a lie and so was the covenant with Abraham.

Open theism never argues that God is not able to carry out God's covenant promises. This is a straw man argument.

Also, it does not help your case. Was God lying to Hezekiah or to Jonah?

Clearly in the OT God states God's intention on some occasions and later does not carry out that intention. On other occasions, God states God's intention and promises (using several different kinds of words) that this intention will surely be carried out - i.e. that God will definitely not change God's mind about this particular intention.

 

[Breetai]

RnMomof7, those were awesome points about Hezekiah and the line of David.

 

[rnmomof7]

Open theism never argues that God is not able to carry out God's covenant promises. This is a straw man argument.

I did not say UNABLE , I said not BOUND to .IF God is not immutable then all promises and covenants are up to review by God at any time. You can not take seriously any promise that is in scripture ..including your own salvation

Also, it does not help your case. Was God lying to Hezekiah or to Jonah?

To neither
The Book of Jonah is a good example of two things

1) That God sent prophets to warn people , They heard the prophecy and rent their clothes (repented) so they were spared.

2) If God ordains a man to speak for Him. He will MAKE SURE that his ordained will is fulfilled


This is the only case of a prophet being sent to a heathen nation . Jonah, is sent to Nineveh, not only for Nineveh's good, but to shame Israel, by a heathen city repenting at the first preaching of a single stranger, Jonah, whereas God's people will not repent, though preached to by their many national prophets.

This was a preordained event

In Jeremiah 18:8, the Bible says that "and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned." (NIV). The people of Nineveh had turned away from their sin after Jonah gave them the prophecy in Jonah 3:4.

BTW
According to the KJV Concordance that is available through www.blueletterbible.org, the Hebrew word "haphak" is used about 90 times in the Old Testament.

That concordance shows that the word "haphak" is most often translated into English as "turn" or "turned" or "transformed," or "changed," or "turned away," or "turned from."

Most of the time, the word "haphak" refers to some sort of a change or transformation. And, if you look at how the word is used in various Bible passages, you will see that most of the time, "haphak" refers to a transformation that does not involve a physical destruction.

The role of a prophet is to warn , and rebuke people
This was obviously a warning to Hezekiah intended to have him turn to God (as he did )
If that warning indeed it was the plan of God to have Hezekiah die then God would have broken the covenant He had made with both Abraham and with David .
God had promised to keep both sides of the covenant with Abraham .

As I told sergeant If God had intended to have Hezekiah die ..that would have been the end of the line of David .

So then all previous "prophecy " on a Messiah coming from the line of David would have been moot..there would no longer have been a line of David for Jesus to come through.

Clearly in the OT God states God's intention on some occasions and later does not carry out that intention. On other occasions, God states God's intention and promises (using several different kinds of words) that this intention will surely be carried out - i.e. that God will definitely not change God's mind about this particular intention.

So you get to pick and choose what scripture is true and what is not?
God made a DEFINITE covenant with Abraham , but according to you he had intended to break that covenant , He also made a covenant with David.

A covenant is a solemn promise so you think that God was going to violate that ? Then God is free to violate your salvation promise too.
Open theology is denied and look at as somewhat heretical by most professing Christian faiths. They take God at His word when He says He is not a man that he should lie.

 

[Crazy Liz]

However, it seems clear that God sometimes says God is going to do something and then doesn't do it. One explanation for these instances is that God changed God's mind. Another is that God was lying. You have said it was a warning. If so, how can you distinguish a warning from a covenant promise?

I can suggest that you can always means what God says when God says something good is going to happen, but does not always mean it when God says something bad is going to happen.

Do you find this a satisfactory explanation?

 

[Dan1824]

However, it seems clear that God sometimes says God is going to do something and then doesn't do it. One explanation for these instances is that God changed God's mind. Another is that God was lying. You have said it was a warning. If so, how can you distinguish a warning from a covenant promise?

His warnings are certain. Whatever judgment He has promised most certainly comes to pass.

God has said, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ez 18:4. This is absolutely certain.

We know that all men have sinned (Romans 5:12). Hence all men shall die.

However, John 11:26 says that those who believe on Jesus Christ shall never die. This is absolutely certain.

Here we have two absolute certainties that are seemingly contradictory. However, they are not contradictions. They are both absolutely true.

They can both be true because of imputation.

The sins of all those who shall never die were imputed to Jesus Christ so that they, in Him, died to sin, and with Him, they are raised to eternal life.


God promised to destroy the city of Nineveh for their sins (as it is God’s law that sinners must die). Nineveh repented, and God was merciful to them.

Did God lie? No. Did God change His mind? No.

The sins of the people of Nineveh were imputed to Jesus Christ, and hence, the repentant Ninevites were redeemed of the judgment that God promised them. Christ was judged in Nineveh’s place.

One explanation for these instances is that God changed God's mind.

You still make God a liar, for if He really did “change His mind” about some things, then He cannot be trusted to not “change His mind” about other things. How do you know that He won’t “change His mind” concerning the promises that all who believe on Him shall be saved? How could you rest on any of His promises of salvation if tomorrow He might “change His mind” about saving repentant sinners?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Personally, I don't find resorting to legal fictions a very satisfactory resolution to the paradox. God sometimes warns of something that is going to happen, then does not do what God said when people change their behavior.

 

[kel32]

God created all men. Each and every one of us. If He knew beforehand who would worship Him and who wouldn't, why would He even bother to create the non-believers? Why would He not create all men to accept Him, submit to Him, and live their lives through His will? He creates us all with the knowing that He has given us a chance for salvation. It is then up to the individual to accept Him into their lives, and have a chance to enter the Kingdom of God. Or we may turn our back on Him, through our own will, and thus give up that chance. ~peace and love to all~

 

[rnmomof7]

God created all men. Each and every one of us. If He knew beforehand who would worship Him and who wouldn't, why would He even bother to create the non-believers? Why would He not create all men to accept Him, submit to Him, and live their lives through His will? He creates us all with the knowing that He has given us a chance for salvation. It is then up to the individual to accept Him into their lives, and have a chance to enter the Kingdom of God. Or we may turn our back on Him, through our own will, and thus give up that chance. ~peace and love to all~

Is God waiting in heaven rooting all of us on? Is Gods plan dependent on men ? Or is God sovereign over the affairs of men?

God knew that Adam and Eve would rebel. He could have made them differently but He did not.

Ws anyone saved at the cross?

God is glorified in all His attributes. God is glorified in His love ,but He is also glorified in His Justice and Mercy and Grace.

Will we have free will in heaven or will God take that away from us and make us puppets ?

 

[kel32]

"Is God waiting in heaven rooting all of us on? Is Gods plan dependent on men ? Or is God sovereign over the affairs of men? "


Then why would God create a man that He knew was not going to follow His laws or worship Him?

 

[rnmomof7]

"Is God waiting in heaven rooting all of us on? Is Gods plan dependent on men ? Or is God sovereign over the affairs of men? "


Then why would God create a man that He knew was not going to follow His laws or worship Him?

Why did He create Adam and Eve? He knew they were going to fail the test..and break the covenant .

We need to understand that God is glorified in His Love and His Holiness and Justice and Judgment. He created even the wicked for His glory

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Think of the Bible stories we teach our children..the fall , the flood, Sodom, the death of the Egyptian soldiers pursuing Israel .

He is glorified in his judgment ...If it were not for his judgment, His mercy would be meaningless.

 

[kel32]

So, are you telling me that when somebody is raped, it was God's desire? All part of His "Master plan"? Or murdered? The God that I bow down to is a loving God, one who gave me a chance to form a relationship with Him, through the blood of Christ. And if I chose to turn my back on Him, then I will suffer the consequences. ~Peace~