Open Theism - ?? what definition for it?

[Derf]

Yes to all your questions.

Then, wouldn't agree that A is a type of determinism, just not all determined by God?

And if determinism, defined as the idea that "all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will", then all your human actions were determined before you were born (they had to be, since God knew about them way back then), and therefore you played no part in determining those actions (you didn't exist when they were determined)?

 

[Gary K]

Then, wouldn't agree that A is a type of determinism, just not all determined by God?

And if determinism, defined as the idea that "all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will", then all your human actions were determined before you were born (they had to be, since God knew about them way back then), and therefore you played no part in determining those actions (you didn't exist when they were determined)?

Yes.

I will. however give you evidence for my position.

Jer_31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Do you think open theism is compatible with this evidence of the love of God?

Edit:

The Psalms contain 22 separate instances of the word lovingkindness to describe God.

 

[Derf]

Yes.

In C, the determination is made by God. In A, the determination for your actions is made by an un-named entity who exercises control over your destiny, and God knows all of that entity's plans for you, but can't change your destiny. I'll explain. If God can see your future inerrantly, then if He changes anything about your future, He obviously didn't see your future, He saw something false, because He changed it. If He was able to change it, that means your future that He knew wasn't the real future. Therefore God at one time believed something false about your future, which makes God fallible.

What this does, to avoid His believing something false, is to drive the settled future in all aspects, so that He never believes anything false, which drives us away from A and back toward C, which we both reject. If, between position 1 and position 2, only #1 is tenable, and we reject #1 because it makes God the author of sin, that makes us have to behind category 1 and move to category 2--that the future is NOT settled, but open.

I will. however give you evidence for my position.

Jer_31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Do you think open theism is compatible with this evidence of the love of God?

Yes. But please explain why you think it isn't.

Edit:

The Psalms contain 22 separate instances of the word lovingkindness to describe God.

Ok. But I don't see any problem with His loving us even if the future is open.

 

[Gary K]

In C, the determination is made by God. In A, the determination for your actions is made by an un-named entity who exercises control over your destiny, and God knows all of that entity's plans for you, but can't change your destiny. I'll explain. If God can see your future inerrantly, then if He changes anything about your future, He obviously didn't see your future, He saw something false, because He changed it. If He was able to change it, that means your future that He knew wasn't the real future. Therefore God at one time believed something false about your future, which makes God fallible.

What this does, to avoid His believing something false, is to drive the settled future in all aspects, so that He never believes anything false, which drives us away from A and back toward C, which we both reject. If, between position 1 and position 2, only #1 is tenable, and we reject #1 because it makes God the author of sin, that makes us have to behind category 1 and move to category 2--that the future is NOT settled, but open.

Yes. But please explain why you think it isn't.

Ok. But I don't see any problem with His loving us even if the future is open.

Because if God determines everything we do we are nothing but automatons and God is the author of all sin. That makes God evil and incapable of love as well as we humans.

 

[Derf]

Just so we're clear about what the subject is, you said:

Do you think open theism is compatible with this evidence of the love of God?

To which I replied:

Yes. But please explain why you think it isn't.

And this was your answer:

Because if God determines everything we do we are nothing but automatons and God is the author of all sin. That makes God evil and incapable of love as well as we humans.

Because this doesn't fit with any description of Open Theism I've ever heard, it makes me wonder if I have erroneously connected the above conversation. Can you confirm that the above all fits together including your most recent answer is to the request for explanation I've copied here?

 

[Gary K]

Just so we're clear about what the subject is, you said:

To which I replied:

And this was your answer:

Because this doesn't fit with any description of Open Theism I've ever heard, it makes me wonder if I have erroneously connected the above conversation. Can you confirm that the above all fits together including your most recent answer is to the request for explanation I've copied here?

You have stated that God cannot know the future for if He does we have no actual power of choice. A question I've never seen you answer is why that has to be? God is infinitely greater than we are in intelligence, wisdom and power. How is it that you have to speculate on things we cannot possibly understand about His capabilities and as a result limit His infinite abilities. To me that is an insult to Him as He is infinitely beyond us. We have no possible chance of knowing the extent His abilities. All we can ever see up to is the limits of our abilities. Seems to me to speculate about something we cannot know is really dumb as we have no chance of being right.

 

[Derf]

You have stated that God cannot know the future for if He does we have no actual power of choice.

No, only if He knows our future before we exist, THEN there's nothingv to choose, because all the choices have already been made for us by someone.

A question I've never seen you answer is why that has to be? God is infinitely greater than we are in intelligence, wisdom and power. How is it that you have to speculate on things we cannot possibly understand about His capabilities and as a result limit His infinite abilities. To me that is an insult to Him as He is infinitely beyond us.

Can you define what "infinitely beyond us" means? Or are you just using it as a way to say we can't know anything about God?

We have no possible chance of knowing the extent His abilities. All we can ever see up to is the limits of our abilities. Seems to me to speculate about something we cannot know is really dumb as we have no chance of being right.

All I've said is that if God knows everything about our futue from the foundation of the world, our future must already be determined, otherwise He might be wrong about some aspect of our future. I haven't suggested yet how He knows. However we don't have to speculate on how He knows when His word tells us how He knows things about us.
Psalm 139:1-4 KJV — To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

These descriptions only work after we exist, because God is searching us, not searching the future. If God knows all about us before we exist, then He has no need to search us.

Notice it doesn't say, "Before the foundation of the world, you knew everything that would ever be on my tongue."

To assume there's some mysterious means of knowing, when God has told us how He knows, is telling God we know better than He does. Now, we don't know how God searches us, or how often, but that He searches us is assured.

But you haven't answered my question. Do you think Open Theism is a deterministic theology? If you do, I'd like to know why you think that.

 

[Gary K]

No, only if He knows our future before we exist, THEN there's nothingv to choose, because all the choices have already been made for us by someone.

Can you define what "infinitely beyond us" means? Or are you just using it as a way to say we can't know anything about God?


All I've said is that if God knows everything about our futue from the foundation of the world, our future must already be determined, otherwise He might be wrong about some aspect of our future. I haven't suggested yet how He knows. However we don't have to speculate on how He knows when His word tells us how He knows things about us.
Psalm 139:1-4 KJV — To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

These descriptions only work after we exist, because God is searching us, not searching the future. If God knows all about us before we exist, then He has no need to search us.

Notice it doesn't say, "Before the foundation of the world, you knew everything that would ever be on my tongue."

To assume there's some mysterious means of knowing, when God has told us how He knows, is telling God we know better than He does. Now, we don't know how God searches us, or how often, but that He searches us is assured.

But you haven't answered my question. Do you think Open Theism is a deterministic theology? If you do, I'd like to know why you think that.

God is not a man. He is not finite. He has no beginning and no end. He can speak worlds into existence with entire biospheres. Can you explain how He does this? Can your finite brain grasp all that entails? My puny mind sure can't. Can you grasp the size of the universe? I can't. With the esistence of the new James Webb telescope and it's ability to gather light evolutionists are shaken to the core as the extent of the universe is coming to be known every time they point that telescope at what they thought was a blank price of the sky. Everything they thought they knew about star formation and galactic formation has been proven false. God is beyond mankind's ability to imagine His greatness and power. What will they see if they create an even better telescope? Who knows? I think they will finally have to admit God is infinite as the Universe is infinite as God has been busy creating for eternity.

 

[Derf]

God is not a man. He is not finite. He has no beginning and no end. He can speak worlds into existence with entire biospheres. Can you explain how He does this? Can your finite brain grasp all that entails? My puny mind sure can't. Can you grasp the size of the universe? I can't. With the esistence of the new James Webb telescope and it's ability to gather light evolutionists are shaken to the core as the extent of the universe is coming to be known every time they point that telescope at what they thought was a blank price of the sky. Everything they thought they knew about star formation and galactic formation has been proven false. God is beyond mankind's ability to imagine His greatness and power. What will they see if they create an even better telescope? Who knows? I think they will finally have to admit God is infinite as the Universe is infinite as God has been busy creating for eternity.

I agree with most of that, but it's a non sequitur in relation to what God tells us. In fact, God tells us He created for 6 days, then rested, having created everything in the earth and sea and heavens in 6 days, and that the things that were made, were made from things invisible. So whatever God might have been creating for all eternity before that is likely invisible to our telescopes.

So too He tells us how He knows stuff. He either had created stuff a particular way, or He observes. The first is C (and A), the second is O. The bible tells us it's O.

 

[Gary K]

I agree with most of that, but it's a non sequitur in relation to what God tells us. In fact, God tells us He created for 6 days, then rested, having created everything in the earth and sea and heavens in 6 days, and that the things that were made, were made from things invisible. So whatever God might have been creating for all eternity before that is likely invisible to our telescopes.

So too He tells us how He knows stuff. He either had created stuff a particular way, or He observes. The first is C (and A), the second is O. The bible tells us it's O.

I am really surprised by this answer. Are you an evolutionist to think God didn't create the entire universe? I know you aren't so your answer is basically a shock to me as the only alternative to God creating the universe is evolution. Or do you think that God would have some reason to hide His greatness from us?

The Bible is the story of how the earth was created and the history of sin. So why would the creation of the universe be included in it? Nobody had telescopes back then so all everyone knew about the universe was could be seen with the naked eye. None of that knowledge was needed to explain how God and the devil have been at war here on earth so there was no need of including extraneous info. I'm sorry but I just can't follow your logic.

 

[Derf]

I am really surprised by this answer. Are you an evolutionist to think God didn't create the entire universe? I know you aren't so your answer is basically a shock to me as the only alternative to God creating the universe is evolution. Or do you think that God would have some reason to hide His greatness from us?

The Bible is the story of how the earth was created and the history of sin. So why would the creation of the universe be included in it? Nobody had telescopes back then so all everyone knew about the universe was could be seen with the naked eye. None of that knowledge was needed to explain how God and the devil have been at war here on earth so there was no need of including extraneous info. I'm sorry but I just can't follow your logic.

I feel like we're getting way off topic, but in my mind the "heavens", where God put the stars (Gen 1:16-17), was included in the creation account, and that's usually synonymous with "universe".

The bible does not deal just with earth, but also with "the heavens" often rendered merely "heaven"), as indicated in the very first verse:
Genesis 1:1 NKJV — In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

And we are told that everything in the heavens and in the earth and in the sea was made in 6 days... along with the heavens and the earth in the same 6 days:

Exodus 20:11 NKJV — For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I'm a little surprised you have a different view, since that's one of your Sabbath verses.

If "all that is in them" means only "some that is in them" to you, then we might have a hard time understanding each other.

But I maintain that this is a rabbit trail.

 

[Gary K]

I feel like we're getting way off topic, but in my mind the "heavens", where God put the stars (Gen 1:16-17), was included in the creation account, and that's usually synonymous with "universe".

The bible does not deal just with earth, but also with "the heavens" often rendered merely "heaven"), as indicated in the very first verse:
Genesis 1:1 NKJV — In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

And we are told that everything in the heavens and in the earth and in the sea was made in 6 days... along with the heavens and the earth in the same 6 days:

Exodus 20:11 NKJV — For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I'm a little surprised you have a different view, since that's one of your Sabbath verses.

If "all that is in them" means only "some that is in them" to you, then we might have a hard time understanding each other.

But I maintain that this is a rabbit trail.

So you hold to evolutionist beliefs? That God did not create the universe but it came about by evolution? This is a very important idea that needs to be cleared up before there can be any forward progress on open theism as your belief seems to be anti Biblical to me..

 

[Derf]

So you hold to evolutionist beliefs? That God did not create the universe but it came about by evolution? This is a very important idea that needs to be cleared up before there can be any forward progress on open theism as your belief seems to be anti Biblical to me..

Can you point to anything I wrote that says anything but that God created the heavens and the earth?

 

[Gary K]

Can you point to anything I wrote that says anything but that God created the heavens and the earth?

You have said if God created the entire universe He hid it from us, and that the Bible only explicitly mentions the heavens so the only other option is evolution for the existance of so vast a creation that evolutionists are shaken to their core and having to examine their own beliefs. You believe in a small god, not God, by what you have said repeatedly.

 

[Derf]

You have said if God created the entire universe He hid it from us, and that the Bible only explicitly mentions the heavens so the only other option is evolution for the existance of so vast a creation that evolutionists are shaken to their core and having to examine their own beliefs. You believe in a small god, not God, by what you have said repeatedly.

I can see why JR banned you.
God does sometimes hide things from us.
Proverbs 25:2 KJV — It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[Gary K]

I can see why JR banned you.
God does sometimes hide things from us.
Proverbs 25:2 KJV — It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Yeah. Believing differently than he and the rest of the MADists do is a crime. I am now absolutely hated because I believe people need to be treated kindly and not have unfounded allagations made against them just because they think differently politically. BTW, JR deleted posts of mine that contained truth he couldn't refute. My thread on sanctification disappeared as well as posts that showed that the Reformers of the Reformation would not believe in dispensationalism.

I have a hard time understanding why any Christian would be OK with supporting what is basically an evolutionist position. It's something that I as a SDA have a major problem with as defending the character of God is very important as the devil's strategy to deceive the world is to attack His character and has been since he he sinned in heaven. He lied about God successfully enough to deceive 1/3 of the angels. As I love God with everything within me telling the truth about God is my #1 priority and I can't support anything that denigrates Him as it bolsters the devil's accusations against God. Jesus came to show us who the Father is swo cooperating with the devil in any way shape or form is actually working against His purposes.

 

[Derf]

I have a hard time understanding why any Christian would be OK with supporting what is basically an evolutionist position.

Me too. So why is it you are supporting what is basically an evolutionist position?

Does that sound weird that I would say that to you? Yeah, it sounded weird when you said it to me, too.

What it's lacking, you might notice, is any sort of argument as to HOW your position is basically evolution, so we definitely have THAT in common. What that's called is "guilt by association fallacy". You can do better than that, Gary.

Since this is a definite rabbit trail, if you want to continue the creation part of this rabbit trail, please start another thread and tag me in it.

Meanwhile, can we get back to the thread topic, and you can explain why the determinism of A is any better than the determinism of C?

 

[Gary K]

Me too. So why is it you are supporting what is basically an evolutionist position?

Does that sound weird that I would say that to you? Yeah, it sounded weird when you said it to me, too.

What it's lacking, you might notice, is any sort of argument as to HOW your position is basically evolution, so we definitely have THAT in common. What that's called is "guilt by association fallacy". You can do better than that, Gary.

Since this is a definite rabbit trail, if you want to continue the creation part of this rabbit trail, please start another thread and tag me in it.

Meanwhile, can we get back to the thread topic, and you can explain why the determinism of A is any better than the determinism of C?

Why do you say I gave no evidence for my position? I did you just reject my evidence. That is not a two sided discussion. You're sounding like JR and Clete. You have said repeatedly that God hid evidence from us. Why and where did He do so? You deny that the evidence in front of our eyes is of God's doing but give no rational reason for basically taking the evolutionist's position that God didn't create the universe.

 

[Derf]

Why do you say I gave no evidence for my position? I did you just reject my evidence. That is not a two sided discussion. You're sounding like JR and Clete. You have said repeatedly that God hid evidence from us. Why and where did He do so? You deny that the evidence in front of our eyes is of God's doing but give no rational reason for basically taking the evolutionist's position that God didn't create the universe.

You gave no evidence that I was taking the evolutionist's position.

I never said God was hiding evidence from us. But I said He could, and it wouldn't change whether I believe He created the universe.

And I stated that God created everything in 6 days.

What else can I possibly do to not be taking the evo's side?

 

[Gary K]

You gave no evidence that I was taking the evolutionist's position.

I never said God was hiding evidence from us. But I said He could, and it wouldn't change whether I believe He created the universe.

And I stated that God created everything in 6 days.

What else can I possibly do to not be taking the evo's side?

I guess my main objection to open theism is that finite beings think that they can impose human limits upon God. By that I mean an infinite God has abilities far beyond our imagination, That means we are incapable of uderstanding how he can know the future and still leave the human free to make his own decisions. The only reason for someone to say that is because they limit God to what humans think is possible, God broke countless rules humans think possible by speaking worlds into existence.. You insist that God can't know the future and we are still free moral agents. I can't explain it, but I can't explain how He makes matter out of nothing either. Both are far beyond the abilities my puny mind and I expect yours too, but I accept both as true because God is infinitely greater than I am, but you will not. You limit God to your level of imagination. You desire to impose human limits upon Him.