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sorry GuysI spent a large part of the night and morning in prayer over this and I believe I'm being directed to hang in a little longer. There's got to be a way to make this work.
There were differences in the various "sects" of Judaism before the advent of the Messiah, there were divisions in the 1st. cent., and we see from all of the Ecumenical Councils, the Great Schism, all the wars, the divergence and divisions following Luther among the Reformed protestants, and of course, the various groups that are represented here in this forum. The realism of the situation is if we went to sleep for 25 years, then returned to CF the groups and denominations could look very different than they do today. Why? Differences.There are two MJ's really, and this is what happened in the first century, and one won out and called the others heretics. This same thing is happening here.
What we have here, right now, is what God has given us to work with. What we are working with here, today , at this moment is what it is.
While we must always heed the lessons which history gives us, lest we commit the same errors, we must live with the result of what the past gives us as well.
We can not hit the reset button and go back to day one; if we could we would give both Adam and Eve a wake up slap and a good talking to saying... "don't even think about it"; and while we were at it whack the head off of the serpent before he had the chance to utter a single word; but we can't. As much as we are the spiritual citizens of the eternal kingdom of God, we are also inhabitants of mortal bodies living within the bounds of our time, the present. Our temporal heritage is something that we all share, and therefore it's our responsibility to work within the bounds of time
I do not pray enough; I guess it's the "old Adam" in me. I forget who wrote it, it may have been St. Francis, but who ever it was said our whole life should be a prayer; they were right. Unfortunately the "world" often get's in the way, and our (my) pride as well. We (I) often spend so much time striving to follow God's will, that I often forget to submit to His will.
May God have mercy on me, a poor sinful being.
God bless you!
Thank you for your observations, thoughts, and the references that you provided, both Biblical and the links as well. You have reflected many of my thoughts, and those of many here!
I thank you again for your comments, I am unworthy, it is you and the others here who are doing all the work, guided by the hand of God!
Indeed, what's happened in the first Century, continues yet today; and not just here either!
Keeping things "in the family" may seem like an honourable thing to do; and it often is, but sometimes when things are left to fester families can become very dysfunctional, and family members can become alienated. Like with families outside CF, our spiritual families can often benefit from some "outside" help.
For those "in the family" issues can become clouded with emotion; those slightly removed can often see through the haze.
Easy G (G²);59012294 said:Originally Posted by MarkRohfrietsch
I thank you again for your comments, I am unworthy, it is you and the others here who are doing all the work, guided by the hand of God!
Originally Posted by MarkRohfrietsch
Indeed, what's happened in the first Century, continues yet today; and not just here either!
I Corinthians 11:17-31 seems to speak to the dynamic
Believers often forget that a rigorous search for truth necessitates that "there must be also heresies among you" (I Corinthians 11:19).
There is a very real dynamic to consider when it comes to heresies and seeing the many ways in which differing views/thoughts contrasting (or conflicting) with each other is something that was designed by the Lord. And of course, those differences were not meant to be taken in the sense of allowing anything denying the nature of the Lord/His Deity or Message to be go without being examined...nor does it mean that bickering/quarreling (condemned in scripture) is to become a virtue. But differences of opinion were not something the Lord wasn't prepared for.
Jesus essentially taught the same about the reality and necessity in general of division (Matt. 10: 34 )....And as another said best:
A group united in the "same mind and the same judgment" (I Corinthians 1:10) and only such a group can take to the world a message of hope and peace.
This is not to say that division is good in any absolute sense. It quite obviously is not, and Jesus prayed fervently that his disciples would be one (John 17:11). He made it quite clear that Christian division would be a source of confusion to those who were not disciples. But if religious unity among all men of good will is desirable, the Bible never intimates that it is a practical end to be expected by Christians in history.
It is true that a Christian is obliged to work with both a love of the truth and a desire for unity. It is true also that Romans 14 teaches that under some circumstances two can walk together who do not agree and that a Christian is always ready to engage in dialogue about what is "essential" as a basis for doctrinal unity. There is no easy formula which answers all of the questions one must face in a lifetime. A Christian will take the issues one at a time, day by day, person by person, and weigh the respective tugs of truth and unity.
Easy G (G²);59012377 said:Families have tension and sometimes, things do blow up---but they don't stop being brothers or sisters because of it. The way they go about dealing with issues may make relationship with siblings feel more strained than need be, but the links are there regardless. And unless there're to be threads made where all of us come out and say directly who we may hate with a passion and deem to not be our "brother" in any way, I think all of us are a family in many ways.
Just so you have both sides of the equation Mark, there are Messianic Gentile 'Rabbis' in the movement as well. Many Messianic congregations are run by Gentiles. If you've been here long enough you will remember Pastor George, who is a Messianic minister, with accreditation from the CTOMC. They define themselves as such:
First Fruits of Zion which many here adhere to their teachings is run by a Messianic Gentile. T. Lancaster. I'm a Messianic Gentile
Here is one group for instance that has a completely different view of MJ
How The OMJRA Defines Messianic
This is the Messianic Judaism that those who are Hebrew Christians are fighting against, this was the Judaism of the early first century and some are trying to get back to.
As you can see if you read this and followed the few links I gave (there is much more) it is more diverse than some here are letting on.
They refer to us a Hebrew Christians and Church in a kippah in a derogatory way. Implying we are not Jewish because we don't believe their interpretation of Yeshua's commands.
No argument there.. you are.. I suppose this jealousy is prophetic...Yep, and we are the Messianic Jews! Born Jewish, raised Jewish...but not Jewish enough for the Gentiles, who want to "out-Jew" us. LOL
andRomans 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
No argument there.. you are.. I suppose this jealousy is prophetic...and
God's truth is to be shared... anyone who doesn't want another to walk in the Way.. must be jealous of the other trying to.When it comes to this forum...who is jealous of whom?
When it comes to this forum...who is jealous of whom?
Indeed, we are all Children of the Father; brothers and sisters!
First off, Shimshon, pleas do not be offended that I snipped your post down, it's not my intend to discount what you have written; the point you made in that first paragraph speaks volumes and ties into what Lulav posted so well!
The best advice I can give to these observations is... "Get ready, this is only the beginning; and a fore-tast of things to come".
Like Lulav posted:
There were differences in the various "sects" of Judaism before the advent of the Messiah, there were divisions in the 1st. cent., and we see from all of the Ecumenical Councils, the Great Schism, all the wars, the divergence and divisions following Luther among the Reformed protestants, and of course, the various groups that are represented here in this forum. The realism of the situation is if we went to sleep for 25 years, then returned to CF the groups and denominations could look very different than they do today. Why? Differences.
What we have here, right now, is what God has given us to work with. What we are working with here, today , at this moment is what it is.
While we must always heed the lessons which history gives us, lest we commit the same errors, we must live with the result of what the past gives us as well. We can not hit the reset button and go back to day one; if we could we would give both Adam and Eve a wake up slap and a good talking to saying... "don't even think about it"; and while we were at it whack the head off of the serpent before he had the chance to utter a single word; but we can't. As much as we are the spiritual citizens of the eternal kingdom of God, we are also inhabitants of mortal bodies living within the bounds of our time, the present. Our temporal heritage is something that we all share, and therefore it's our responsibility to work within the bounds of time.
Yep, and we are the Messianic Jews! Born Jewish, raised Jewish...but not Jewish enough for the Gentiles, who want to "out-Jew" us. LOL
...we are the Messianic Jews! Born Jewish, raised Jewish...but not Jewish enough for the Gentiles, who want to "out-Jew" us. LOL
... Messianic Jews! Born Jewish, raised Jewish...but not Jewish enough for the Gentiles, who want to "out-Jew" us. LOL
AND26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for The Poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Epiphanius of Salamis in the 4th century gives the most complete but also questionable account in his heresiology called Panarion, denouncing eighty heretical sects, among them the Ebionites.10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember The Poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Is it wrong to want to get back to what is described above as Jewish Christianity or does the persecution still continue?.After the end of the First Jewish-Roman War, the importance of the Jerusalem church began to fade. Jewish Christianity became dispersed throughout the Jewish diaspora in the Levant, where it was slowly eclipsed by gentile Christianity, which then spread throughout the Roman Empire without competition from "judaizing" Christian groups.
Once the Jerusalem church, still headed by Jesus' relatives, was eliminated during the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135, the Ebionites gradually lost influence and followers. According to Hyam Maccoby (1987) their decline was due to marginalization and "persecution" by both Jews and Christians
Can I quote this in the Messianic History thread.. .or could you.. This is another keeper.It is interesting to note that in the 2nd century, the man called Irenaeus (c. 180) was probably the first to use the term "Ebionites" to describe a heretical judaizing sect, which he regarded as stubbornly clinging to the Law.
Origen (c. 212) remarks that the name derives from the Hebrew word "evyon," meaning "poor." They have been known as the poor or the Poor ones.
Paul mentions them but it is usually dismissed as having another meaning.
AND
Epiphanius of Salamis in the 4th century gives the most complete but also questionable account in his heresiology called Panarion, denouncing eighty heretical sects, among them the Ebionites.
80 in the 4th century?
Is it wrong to want to get back to what is described above as Jewish Christianity or does the persecution still continue?.
The Ebionites were not originally heretics. Their characteristic was the more or less strict insistence upon the observance of the Jewish law; a matter of cultus, therefore, not of theology, separated them from Gentile Christians. Among the early Jewish Christians existed all shades of opinion, in regard to the relation of the law and the Gospel, from the freest recognition of the uncircumcised Gentile Christian to the bitterest insistence upon the necessity for salvation of full observance of the Jewish law by Gentile as well as by Jewish Christians.
With the latter Paul himself had to contend, and as time went on, and Christianity spread more and more among the Gentiles, the breach only became wider. In the time of Justin there were two opposite tendencies among such Christians as still observed the Jewish law: some wished to impose it upon all Christians; others confined it to themselves. Upon the latter Justin looks with charity; but the former he condemns as schismatics (see Dial. c. Trypho. 47).
It is interesting to note that in the 2nd century, the man called Irenaeus (c. 180) was probably the first to use the term "Ebionites" to describe a heretical judaizing sect, which he regarded as stubbornly clinging to the Law.
Origen (c. 212) remarks that the name derives from the Hebrew word "evyon," meaning "poor." They have been known as the poor or the Poor ones.
Paul mentions them but it is usually dismissed as having another meaning.
Indeed, Wiki had some good material on them that would be interesting to develop discussion on...even if one may not agree with all of the conclusions or the ideology of the group. For if nothing else, I think it'd open up doors for discussing dynamics within history on why groups are viewed as they are and how movements today can learn from that---and within the Messianic movement, I'd think history would offer some excellent lessons on how interaction in the present isn't always divorced from what occurred already in the past.Epiphanius of Salamis in the 4th century gives the most complete but also questionable account in his heresiology called Panarion, denouncing eighty heretical sects, among them the Ebionites.
80 in the 4th century?
After the end of the First Jewish-Roman War, the importance of the Jerusalem church began to fade. Jewish Christianity became dispersed throughout the Jewish diaspora in the Levant, where it was slowly eclipsed by gentile Christianity, which then spread throughout the Roman Empire without competition from "judaizing" Christian groups.
Once the Jerusalem church, still headed by Jesus' relatives, was eliminated during the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135, the Ebionites gradually lost influence and followers. According to Hyam Maccoby (1987) their decline was due to marginalization and "persecution" by both Jews and Christians
Read the whole thing in the side bar on this page. It is copyrighted, but you can put a link to it in your thread with an introduction about what it says.The Ebionites were not originally heretics. Their characteristic was the more or less strict insistence upon the observance of the Jewish law; a matter of cultus, therefore, not of theology, separated them from Gentile Christians. Among the early Jewish Christians existed all shades of opinion, in regard to the relation of the law and the Gospel, from the freest recognition of the uncircumcised Gentile Christian to the bitterest insistence upon the necessity for salvation of full observance of the Jewish law by Gentile as well as by Jewish Christians.
With the latter Paul himself had to contend, and as time went on, and Christianity spread more and more among the Gentiles, the breach only became wider. In the time of Justin there were two opposite tendencies among such Christians as still observed the Jewish law: some wished to impose it upon all Christians; others confined it to themselves. Upon the latter Justin looks with charity; but the former he condemns as schismatics (see Dial. c. Trypho. 47).
That goes back, IMHO, to the question asked earlier when it comes to disagreements---and that is "Was it right that certain groups lost influence?". A question to consider alongside that is one asking "Is all disagreement to be taken as persecution?" or "Was a persecuted group innocent at all points/never persecutors themselves?"Is it wrong to want to get back to what is described above as Jewish Christianity or does the persecution still continue?
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