[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

[RoseofLima]

Anyone read either of these books:

Siblings Without Rivalry: How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

[FONT=&quot]How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish[/FONT]

How to Talk..... is an amazing, amazing book. I am so thankful for it!!

Haven't read the sibling book--because we don't really have any sibling issues. They all really get along well for the most part--as much as anyone I can imagine who have not chosen to be together- but are are together 99% of their lives

However- after I assimilate what I have been reading and doing-- perhaps I will read it because I can always use more help!

 

[RoseofLima]

I'm reading "How To Talk..." and it is a really amazing book. I'm already trying to put these principles into practise although Meg is only 9 months old.

I will order "Siblings..." once I get pregnant with the next one!

Addressing Jazzbird and the pulling hair while nursing and biting issue.
Meg has only bitten me twice. The first time, I DID pull her into my breast and she stopped immediately- but I want her to know why it's wrong so I did the OW that hurts and put her on the floor the next time. I will continue with that if necessary.
A nursing necklace seems like a good idea- she will pull on anything she can, my bra, my shirt, my hair, but she seems to prefer things that don't give as easily like hair and necklaces. She also pulls her own hair while nursing sometimes and that concerns me because I am a recovering hair-puller. She seems to do it most when she is tired.
She doesn't just pull hair when nursing though, it's when I'm carrying her or while she's sitting on my lap facing me. She goes for hair everywhere.

I have just been implementing Rose's suggestion so far and have told my husband and best friend (the people she sees most) to do the same.
When she pulls I tell her "pulling hurts honey. Mummy likes a gentle soft touch." then I take her hand and stroke my hair with it and say "soft, gentle" over and over. When she seems to get it I say "that's right Meaghan, very good!"
I don't know if I'm kidding myself but I may be seeing a difference. Could just be wishful thinking. I'll give an update when I know I see a difference.

Right now Meaghan is sick with croup, poor baby and poor mummy too. Heck, poor daddy who has to do all the neglected housework after working for 8 hours.
Yesterday was the worst day so far- she doesn't seem as bad today. Pretty gross yesterday though- I got puked on and it was all the snot she swallowed since she doesn't know how to blow her nose yet!
yuck times ten! If you all wouldn't mind saying a prayer for her, I'd really appreciate it! She's such a little trooper!

Ugh!!! Croup is the pits--- it sounds so, so scary!! Praying, for sure!

 

[RoseofLima]

New Creation - I hear you with the biting and hair pulling. Jonas is 9.5 months and just got his bottom teeth a few weeks ago. There have only been a couple occasions where he's bit me while nursing, and I say "OW! That hurts mama." He always looks so shocked. I resume nursing with him, and he doesn't do it again at that time. I think I read in one of Dr. Sears' books that if you have a biter, you should pull the babe in toward your breast (rather than off) and they'll let go because they can't breath. I've never tried it because Jonas doesn't clamp down, he just bites once. He is always pulling my hair when he nurses too - even when it's in a pony tail, he seems to find a way to grab it. I got him a nursing necklace a couple months ago, but still prefers my hair. I guess I haven't been very consistent about taking it away from him. He doesn't pull it so it hurts, but I'm sure it's not a good habit.

So, more experienced, wiser mamas.....I need some advice about some behavior I'm seeing from my friend's 4 (5 in July) year old whom I babysit. She is a very smart little girl - very verbal, creative, great imagination - she seems a lot older than most kids her age. Except for the occasional tantrum when she doesn't get what she wants, she has been pretty easy to take care of, but the last few weeks I'm seeing some things that have surprised me. (Sorry this is long).

I'm concerned about her interactions with Jonas - very aggressive lately. She has a sister who is two months younger than Jonas, and she'll play a bit rough with her sometimes, but she's always loving towards her. With Jonas, on the other hand, she's just been plain mean. Anytime he crawls anywhere near her, she whines "no, get him away from me." He doesn't touch her stuff or do anything to her. When I ask why, she just says she doesn't want him by her.

I don't usually leave the babies alone with the two older kids, but occasionally it happens. Last week, I was helping Jonathan in the bathroom. Jonas was standing at the furniture in the livingroom and I was keeping an eye on him, while at the bathroom door. Grace did not know I was watching, and she went over to Jonas, stood over him in a very domineering posture with her hands on her hips and got right in his face making growling type noises. She wasn't just being silly; she had a mean look in her face. I said her name rather sharply and then I asked her why she was doing that. She said that he was bothering her, and I told her that I saw what happened and that he wasn't even near her. She tried to come up with some other excuses, and I just told her that she's not to be mean to any of the kids in the house. I wasn't sure what else to do.

Yesterday, the baby was waking from her nap upstairs. Jonas was again standing at the furniture because that's his favorite thing to do lately, and Grace was sitting on the couch. I ran upstairs and was gone for less than a minute. When I came back, I found Grace with her foot on Jonas' chest as though she were about to push him down. Again, I was rather sharp, and I asked her why she was doing that, and she said rather lamely, "I want to stand there.""

I don't know what to do, other than to always take Jonas with me. I do wear him a lot while I'm there, but if he's not already in a carrier when I need to carry Ella somewhere, I don't take the time to put him on, and it's very difficult to carry both babies, especially up and down the stairs.

I'm going to talk to her mom about what I'm seeing this week, but I'm hoping to have some ideas for helping this situation. They are not gentle discipline. Pretty mainstream: time outs, the occasional spanking, removing privelages.

How do I handle this?

That's a hard one jazz-- I always have a much harder time with other peopl'es kids-- because I have God given authority with my own children, and the necessary grace---but I don't always feel that with other people's kids.

Are there ways/times that you could let Grace play with Jonas? While you are right there and you can show her what to do? Are there ways for you to give her some one on one attention while Jonas is safely contained somewhere--an exersaucer or asleep for a nap or something? It seems like some emotional disconnect for her-- like she wants more attention or feels like baby is taking over her 'space'. Four year old girls are hard!! They seem to be always have overflowing emotions!

 

[Leanna]

"Reflux is most often the result of a weak or fluky esophageal sphincter, the valve connecting the esophagus to the stomach. It's not a common affliction; only about 3 percent of infants get it. But you won't miss it. If your baby has reflux you will likely feel like you're being driven to the very rim of sanity with her crankiness and squalling."

Yes, I feel that way. I feel nearly insane today. I am really sick of not being able to go anywhere for fear that my baby will cry unconsolably and then when I do people start giving me advice because they assume I must have no clue what I am doing.

 

[RoseofLima]

"Reflux is most often the result of a weak or fluky esophageal sphincter, the valve connecting the esophagus to the stomach. It's not a common affliction; only about 3 percent of infants get it. But you won't miss it. If your baby has reflux you will likely feel like you're being driven to the very rim of sanity with her crankiness and squalling."

Yes, I feel that way. I feel nearly insane today. I am really sick of not being able to go anywhere for fear that my baby will cry unconsolably and then when I do people start giving me advice because they assume I must have no clue what I am doing.

Hang in there Maya is so lucky to have a mommy who is willing to work so, so hard to try to meet her needs.

 

[jazzbird]

"Reflux is most often the result of a weak or fluky esophageal sphincter, the valve connecting the esophagus to the stomach. It's not a common affliction; only about 3 percent of infants get it. But you won't miss it. If your baby has reflux you will likely feel like you're being driven to the very rim of sanity with her crankiness and squalling."

Yes, I feel that way. I feel nearly insane today. I am really sick of not being able to go anywhere for fear that my baby will cry unconsolably and then when I do people start giving me advice because they assume I must have no clue what I am doing.

I remember being there - being afraid to go anywhere - hours of crying. I'm sorry, Leanna. It will get better, but I know when you're in the middle of it, it can seem hopelessly never ending.

Is she doing any better on the medication?


Thanks everyone for the input about Grace. I'll have to get back to you when I have some time.

 

[Leanna]

She's not better on the medication even after a dose increase, we have another appointment Monday. I am hoping for prevacid now.

 

[DonnaB]

(((HUGS))) Leanna! Our DD had this as well, and I was so tired of unsolicited advice from perfect strangers I thought I was going to scream!

If it helps, she will be 2 on Tuesday and is extremely easygoing!

 

[DonnaB]

This is kind of a while, I guess, but does anyone else feel like the only gentle dicipline parents in their area? Among my friends and family, we are the only ones who practice it. The responses we get are varied and run from "Oh, well, it's easy for you, Olivia is so good," to, "I could never let my DD run around like yours does."

It is true that DD is pretty calm and good natured much of the time, but she has a lot of mini-tantrums, bad days, sleep resistance, etc...like every two year old. What do you say to these comments? Also, my best friend and I differ wildly on child care issues and as our girls (the same age) get older, we have more conflicts. Has anyone else dealt with this? (ex--she puts her DD in bed when she "misbehaves", where she screams at the top of her lungs like her heart is breaking. My DD has to be restrained from going into the room because she wants to bring her favorite blanket in to share. It causes a lot of tension, because DD (mine) doesn't understand why her friend is in the room, and she gets very concerned)

Anyway, I'll gladly take advice

 

[Jemma]

This is kind of a while, I guess, but does anyone else feel like the only gentle dicipline parents in their area? Among my friends and family, we are the only ones who practice it. The responses we get are varied and run from "Oh, well, it's easy for you, Olivia is so good," to, "I could never let my DD run around like yours does."

It is true that DD is pretty calm and good natured much of the time, but she has a lot of mini-tantrums, bad days, sleep resistance, etc...like every two year old. What do you say to these comments? Also, my best friend and I differ wildly on child care issues and as our girls (the same age) get older, we have more conflicts. Has anyone else dealt with this? (ex--she puts her DD in bed when she "misbehaves", where she screams at the top of her lungs like her heart is breaking. My DD has to be restrained from going into the room because she wants to bring her favorite blanket in to share. It causes a lot of tension, because DD (mine) doesn't understand why her friend is in the room, and she gets very concerned)

Anyway, I'll gladly take advice

I feel like we're the only one who gentle discipline too. I found it best to distract DD and either take her out of the room or outside until her friend was allowed back out to play. It's hard to keep quiet when you disagree with someone's parenting methods, but we have to. This isn't an issue for us as much anymore because we've recently moved away. We don't know any other toddlers yet in this area.

 

[Leanna]

So I keep hearing the key with 3 year olds is to have structure or a schedule and thats why preschool works so well at that age. We aren't doing preschool though since we are homeschooling. Did you have a certain structure at home?

 

[JulySheMustFly]

3 years old is about when I started a schedule at home. It isn't determined by time but routine.

Breakfast
Free play while mommy does house stuff or help mommy
snack
organized activity
read books
lunch
rest
snack
outside play
some tv time while I make dinner
dinner
clean up
story time
pjs
bed

I should add that I am not the type of person who thrives on a schedule. It is a sacrifice I had to make for my children. I'm really praying that they will outgrow this need for structure so I can go back to being spontaneous without crashing down their world order.

 

[BananaCake]

I've been reading this thread since it started and have what may seem like a random question. I'm really not sure how to word it actually, but here goes. What do you do when a child is just downright rebellious? I believe the Bible teaches we are all sinful from conception (Ps. 51:5), and that every inclination of the thoughts of our hearts are only evil all the time (Gen. 6:5). How do you handle this in gentle parenting? Or in parenting at all, for that matter

 

[Leanna]

I've been reading this thread since it started and have what may seem like a random question. I'm really not sure how to word it actually, but here goes. What do you do when a child is just downright rebellious? I believe the Bible teaches we are all sinful from conception (Ps. 51:5), and that every inclination of the thoughts of our hearts are only evil all the time (Gen. 6:5). How do you handle this in gentle parenting? Or in parenting at all, for that matter

If anyone wonders about some of my problems with Christianity, here's one... sinful from conception.... *shakes head* ... these poor babies
Read here:
http://aolff.com/?page_id=28

There is much about Bible and verses although I confess to having skipped those parts. (after 10 years as a conservative fundamentalist I'm all versed out)

 

[BananaCake]

If anyone wonders about some of my problems with Christianity, here's one... sinful from conception.... *shakes head* ... these poor babies
Read here:
http://aolff.com/?page_id=28

There is much about Bible and verses although I confess to having skipped those parts. (after 10 years as a conservative fundamentalist I'm all versed out)

God's not singling out the babies; we all fall into that category

I didn't get a lot out of that article because it doesn't really address my question. I actually found it kind of condescending, especially statements like this:

This is where I challenge you to go to the Scriptures and look for words like “love”, “grace”, “kindness”, “forgiveness”, “joy”, “patience”, “peace”, “goodness”, “gentleness”, “faithfulness”, “self-control”. Where are these principles in your relationship with your children? Are they even present in your parenting?

I don't need to be convinced that I need to behave in a Christ-like manner, no matter what parenting methods I choose. That's a given.

This is why Paul teaches Timothy to look to a possible leader’s family and see how they are before giving someone a position of authority over the Church. Their family is a reflection of who they are and how they conduct their lives.

The majority of the leaders I know and deeply, deeply respect spanked and still have amazing kids. In fact, I don't know a single "gentle parenting" family. So based on the examples of the people around me, what they are doing works. I don't say this to debate AT ALL - I'm just saying for me, it's not a very helpful point.

Leanna, I do appreciate that you pointed me to that article. It had some good points. I have already thought a lot about the difference because "discipline" and "punishment" because as followers of Jesus Christ, the punishment that brought us peace was upon Jesus. Therefore, I don't believe we are punished in the same ways the Israelites were pre-Jesus' death and resurrection.

I guess I'd also like to hear from people who are Christians and believe what the Bible teaches when it comes to having a sinful nature.

 

[Leanna]

God's not singling out the babies; we all fall into that category

I was at least lucky enough to attend a congregation that believes in an age of accountability. I do not believe and have never believed that babies are born defiant, sinful, and out to get you. That is adversarial relationship at its worst.

 

[Leanna]

I will ask the Christian ladies at GCM.

 

[Katydid]

I am a Christian, and I believe that we all sin, but I do not believe that children are sinful. Not that they don't sin, I guess, I don't know what it is called, you know, the concept that we are born sinners. I believe we are born with the personality to sin, but not that we are born with sin. Does that make sense?


Now, beyond that, you really cannot hold that a child is being JUST rebellious. There is always a reason, whether it is developemental, or they have reasons that we don't understand. The point isn't WHY they are misbehaving, but how WE handle the misbehavior. Our reaction is what determines our parenting style.


I.E. If I tell my child it is time to get in the car, and she refuses, then I will restate my request, then help her. Now, she may hate my help, because it will consist of me picking her up, putting her in, in spite of her kicking and screaming, strapping her in and closing the door. So it gets done, she knows that her "rebellion" was useless and it is more effective than spanking her because she KNOWS what she is being disciplined for. Her nature, whether you are right and it is sinful all the time, or not, is not important to consider while disciplining a child. OUR reaction, OUR actions (and according to your beliefs, our actions are also always sinful) are what we control. Trying to control others actions is like trying to control the tides. You can't. All you can do is control your actions. And the way you control your actions, and your reactions. Finding ways to react and act that teach your child is the most important part.

 

[RoseofLima]

I've been reading this thread since it started and have what may seem like a random question. I'm really not sure how to word it actually, but here goes. What do you do when a child is just downright rebellious? I believe the Bible teaches we are all sinful from conception (Ps. 51:5), and that every inclination of the thoughts of our hearts are only evil all the time (Gen. 6:5). How do you handle this in gentle parenting? Or in parenting at all, for that matter

I heartily disagree- I believe we are all born with the stain of original sin- we are a fallen people-- but that we are inherently good-- created in the image and likeness of God. God's grace wipes away that original sin, but our concupiscence remains. However, immersion and cooperation in God's grace allows us to grow in perfection- to be ever more transormed into Christ.

I think if children are appearing rebellious, they are just really seeking out boundaries and trying to make sense of their world. It is my firm belief that children appear rebellious when there are specific scenarios present- either parents are too permissive, or parents are too perfectionistic---or if parents are switching back and forth between the two, or if they are inconsitent.

For me grace is not a covering over of our sin, we are not heaps of dung....grace is a transformation into Christ, a participation in the divine life, a catharsis into the fullness of humanity, of which Jesus is the embodiment.

This is in essence, why I had to reject Protestantism and return to the Catholic Church--I cannot believe that we are created in anything other than inherent goodness.

(So not a criticism-- just sharing my feelings, beliefs, and journey )

 

[Leanna]

I quoted your question, asking for what they think and here are some reponses and I hope they help .... they give me hope, somehow.... I don't know how to explain this but part of what really bugged me about the original question was it makes it out like children are evil (and adults are not) and you are somehow responsible for removing that evil. Just because the fall of man means that everyone is born with a need for redemption does not mean that children are "every inclination of the thoughts of our hearts are only evil all the time" and .... which I believe is an incorrect usage of that scripture, taking it out of context to begin with-- and just because my icon doesn't say Fundamentalist doesn't mean I don't know how to look at scripture in context, I had Bible College for that

We are all born sinners in the sense that we are all born needing Christ. But I don't believe a little child really sins on an *indvidual* active level. My job as I understand it is to keep my children's heart softened so that when they come of age, their hearts will be open to Christ.

Rebellion isn't something I can determine, because I can't see my children's hearts or know what's going on in their minds. I work on the behavior but I don't try to assume I know what my children's motives are; God knows the heart.

I think we are born with a sinful nature in that no matter how we parent, our children will still sin. There is no way to catch them early enough with the perfect parenting method to make them grow up as blameless as Jesus. That doesn't mean we give up, we still teach them what's right and tell them about the love of God and his forgiveness through Christ and so forth.

I don't think that Psalm 51 is really teaching that we are born sinful from conception. It is a Psalm about repentence, and I think David is just making a point of how sinful he is, like a hyperbole.

We tend to face this question as if this "just downright rebellious" child is in a vacuum. The question is intended to say, forget the child's developmental stage, his relationships, his circumstances, you happen to know the child is just plain rebellious for no other reason than sheer orneriness. Sin nature.

I don't like the question because it seems to gang up on the child as if the person who asked the question doesn't function with a certain amount of well-disguised rebellion simmering beneath the surface at least part of the time, herself. It is the human condition, after all. (That is why Christians thank the Lord for Jesus.)

Meanwhile, to parent a rebellious child, I would take the behavior as a barometer of what is happening with the child in terms of his relationships, circumstances and/or developmental phase. While setting boundaries and helping the child face consequences from his rebellious actions, I'd be working to heal the relationships and circumstances and/or to understand the developmental phase. (I.e., twos and teens are working on individuating which can sometimes be channeled as rebellion.)

On a very practical side: rebellion REQUIRES understanding of what you are rebelling against. It means you must understand something and reject it. It's quite ridiculous to accuse an infant, or even a toddler, or even a child of rebellion. They lack the mental development for that level of understanding and the maturity to rebel.