[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

DonnaB · May 29, 2007

latebloomer said:
I'm new to this part of CF. I have an adopted 4-year-old son who came to us when he was 16 months old. He had a lot of developmental delays and he's had a lot of catching up to do. Then he was diagnosed with leukemia just after his 3rd birthday. He's doing very well and is finally looking and acting like a normal little boy. He's very stubborn, strong willed, and just plain strong. Lately, when he doesn't get his way, he kicks, hits, and throws whatever is handy. Time outs don't work if he's out the door and I have to chase him all over the neighborhood. I'm going to try some of the suggestions above. I'm willing to try whatever works. Last night he got out of bed to go potty and dumped soap into daddy's aquarium while he was up. He knows he's not supposed to touch the aquarium. Goldfish don't like bubble baths. Today he helped daddy bury the fish (they were BIG fish) but we don't think he understands what he did, even though he saw the sick and later dead fish. We're trying to figure out if he did it because he was mad at daddy because daddy wouldn't let "Dennis" go visit "Mr. Wilson", our neighbor, after supper last night.

My mom had a 3-bite rule. We had to eat 3 bites of whatever was served. If we were still hungry and didn't like what was served (we were a bunch of picky eaters), she said you know where the peanut butter is. But also, if we didn't eat what was served, no dessert and no snacks until the next meal. We learned to eat what was on the table. She used that rule when we were a little older, when we had started school. With my son, I try to give him small portions, but right now he's in the "do it myself" and likes to serve himself. I refuse to fix him something different, but I do often ask him what he'd like to have when planning a meal. When we had foster kids (school age), each child was assigned a night of the week to choose what was for supper. We gave them guidelines so the meal would be reasonably healthy, and they had to decide what they wanted so we'd have whatever in the house--no last minute trips to the grocery store or menu changes.

I feel like I'm learning my parenting skills out of order, because we had school age kids (I've been through learning-to-read 4 times in the last 3 years), then toddlers, but pre-schoolers are a whole 'nother story. No other kids, adoption was the only option--long story. My son's a delight, but he's also making me crazy.

latebloomer

This must be so hard. My first thought is that some of this hostility might have to do with the leukemia. Your little guy probably has a lot of emotions about that--fear, frustration, powerlessness and rage. I say this because our DD (two) has had some hospitalizations because of her disorder (nothing like what you've gone through). Even at a year old, there were emotions to express. I think she gets over it quickly because she is still young, but we're preparing ourselves for longer-term effects later on.

It seems like whenever DD goes though something like this, she responds well to extra attention--lots of random hugging, etc. For your son, you might want to start using the "books" like what we do with DD to help her process. Basically we make these little books (2-4 pages) and trust me, I'm no artist. The books help her to process "big feelings". They're extremely simple, we read them together, and sometimes she pulls them out on her own. We've made books about me being in school and having to take more time to study (done in response to a sudden hitting streak, and between the book and lots of extra cuddles she was over it in three days), about her hospitalizations (we break it up into different aspects--fear, anger, fatigue, and use concrete examples like needle pokes and IV's), DH being gone for work, etc...

A lot of this is probably normal kid stuff, magnified because he has been through so much. Hugs to you and your little guy--you've found a good place to be

Leanna · May 29, 2007

annaapple said:
Mine have started fighting occasionally. The younger one can beat up the older one though! Partly that's a psychological victory - older DS is sensitive and will cry if he gets hit, younger one is more bulldozer like! I feel I am entering an extra-hard work stage right now, as I try to teach them both how to be nice to each other.

Sorry, that's just how I feel right now. DH is about to start work abroad, I'm staying to finish the school year so I have to manage my work during hectic exam time and the kids and I just have this sense that all pro-activity, patience and other good things are about to fly out the window. Especially if they don't listen. Boy, does that drive me up the wall!!!

Do any of your kids fight each other? Like over toys? What do you do?

I'm on my way out the door, but have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? Its a bestseller and all, and I have it over there on my table waiting to be read.... I'm excited

BananaCake · May 30, 2007

Random question - do any of you on this thread have older kids? I hear a lot of suggestions for infants, toddlers, and younger kids, so I was just wondering.

I think I have a difficult time distinguishing between a boundary, a consequence, and a punishment as it relates to non-punitive parenting. Are most of the consequences for misbehaving or disobedience just natural consequences (though this isn't disobedience, I think of Rose's example of going on a walk and having to leave your backpack behind because you chose to bring and now you no longer want to carry it - the natural consequence being you no longer have a backpack) or imposed consequences? I guess an "imposed consequence" could be looked at as a punishment. Isn't taking books away when the child misuses them a punishment?

I'll wait till I hear this clarification before I ask my next question

Leanna · May 30, 2007

I would like to quote Crystal on this,

"The removal of a privelage[sic] for misbehavior is punitive. A punishment is something intended to inflict suffering of some type on the child because of misbehavior. It's conditional acceptance. Behavior earns you privelages; misbehavior loses you privelages. That's the foundation for reward-based conditioning.

Logical consequences within a GBD/PD paradigm need to be related, respectful, relevant, and helpful for preventing the problem in the future and are better called (Jane Nelson's term) Solutions. IOW, they are not a reactive punishment; they are a proactive solution for it not happening again. The taking away of screen time for speaking rudely ONLY fits these criteria if the screen time is the reason that the child is being disrespectful (and that is the case for some children)."

This is why taking away books, when he is destroying books is not punishment but a proactive solution. Does that make sense?

BananaCake · May 30, 2007

Leanna said:
This is why taking away books, when he is destroying books is not punishment but a proactive solution. Does that make sense?

No I'm really not trying to be argumentative - I honestly don't understand the difference. To me, you removed a privilege, the privilege being free access to his books. It's also a proactive solution, I guess.

For instance, if I found out one of my kids was doing something inappropriate with the computer or other electronic device, would restricting or completely banning access to that device be considered punitive? What would be some other proactive solutions?

Leanna · May 30, 2007

BananaCake said:
No I'm really not trying to be argumentative - I honestly don't understand the difference. To me, you removed a privilege, the privilege being free access to his books. It's also a proactive solution, I guess.

For instance, if I found out one of my kids was doing something inappropriate with the computer or other electronic device, would restricting or completely banning access to that device be considered punitive? What would be some other proactive solutions?

Taking away the computer would be a wise decision not a punishment. It is related to the issue, it solves the problem. The difference is also that even though the parent has authority its not me-versus-you and how many priviledges can I take away to get you to Conform. I would say this-- don't feel like you need to know all the answers now. I don't need to know how to parent a 10 year old, I have never had a 10 year old, but when I get there I will know the right thing to do because I am connected to my kids and I am their mother. I don't know how to explain this, but as I reach each age we just find our way.... its not always easy... but that's what its all about, learning as you go and as you grow with your individual children you know what is right for them. I won't have all the answers now for what I will need to do later. I do have some general ideas about things I do or do not consider important but the nitty gritty I will understand as they grow. I know how I thought I would parent before I had kids and how I do parent is different.... ugh I am so tired, goodnight for now!

DonnaB · May 30, 2007

BananaCake said:
No I'm really not trying to be argumentative - I honestly don't understand the difference. To me, you removed a privilege, the privilege being free access to his books. It's also a proactive solution, I guess.

For instance, if I found out one of my kids was doing something inappropriate with the computer or other electronic device, would restricting or completely banning access to that device be considered punitive? What would be some other proactive solutions?

Punitive punishment is generally not a natural consequence of the behavior--i.e. "you wrote in crayon on the wall, so you don't get to have dessert". It is a way of trying to remove something that is "fun" or "priviledged" in order to cause "hurt" so that the behavior can be modified.

A proactive solution recgonizes that there may be more going on--i.e. maybe they aren't developmentally ready to have full access to the books or crayons (or computer, what have you), so they are no longer readily accessible. Another example, DD likes to try to climb over the back of the sofa--yikes! A consequence of that is that she has to get off the sofa and find something else to climb.

If a child is doing something inappropriate on the computer, for example, then they are not ready to have free reign--it should be moved to a public place, maybe. (My tot is only two, so I'm just making this up. We're still on crayons over here.) Does that help?

I still have a hard time with this. I was raised with the notion (as were many people) that it is the parent's job to "make them obey" and "make them behave", so when DD does something I don't want her to do my first impulse is to punish, get angry, and make her pay, that type of thinking. The reality is, though, that her behaviors are so developmentally motiviated and my job is really to create an environment where she can do those things in an acceptable manner.

(We've just started "quiet yelling" when she gets too riled up. She thinks it is hilarious and my ears get a break. It is also helpful in situations where she wants to be loud but it is not appropriate (Mass, the library).)

annaapple · May 31, 2007

Let me try to explain the way i see it. Emphasis on TRY!

We still run one complete no-no from a NP point of view, and this will be changed when we move; new house, new rules etc. That is that when oldest DS doesn't eat what I consider to be enough to stay healthy, he gets his 10 min tv privilege removed. It's a no-no because there is no logical link between dinner and TV, it is complete stick and carrot behaviour modification. In the long run, it is unhelpful because it teaches all the wrong things e.g. food is an ordeal to get through, tv is a reward

I guess that kind of sums up the key to it all: as a NP parent you are always aksing yourself, what is my reaction teaching my child? Lots of punishment may lead to fear and stealth anger, and then secretive behaviour to avoid punishment in the future. Logical consequences, esp. when explained means they slowly start to be able to think through the consequences of their own actions, and hopefully this will lead to them making appropriate choices in the future.

Rose gave an example of giving toys away that kids aren't careful with. Depending on the way the parent handles it, this can be either a logical consequence or a punishment. With the former, the child is warned before and has a chance to adjust their behaviour; if it has to happen, the actions are explained fully, it is done calmly and in proportion to the 'crime' committed. If the parents gets angry and starts taking the toys away in a kind of battle field scenario the same action becomes a punishment, and leads to resentment and little learning.

Does that make more sense?

latebloomer · Jun 1, 2007

Thanks, DonnaB, for the little book suggestion. I've tried some of the other suggestions in this thread and so far they have worked. He tends to lose his ability to verbalise when he gets upset or angry.

My little Tiger has so many friends. He came home from his last day of school the other day with a beautiful Relay For Life bracelet that someone had left at the school for me. We have much to be grateful for. He has the type of leukemia that is the easiest to treat, 90% survival rate. If he gets sick, a normal kid might be kept home from school a day or two, but he has to go to the hospital. He's finally in the maintenance phase, which means doctor once a month instead of once a week. His doctor is 3 hours away. We made that drive every week for 9 months. He was diagnosed early, on a fluke, so he wasn't as sick starting his treatments as he would have been if it had been discovered a month later. He had a pretty miserable summer last year, and I think he's determined to make up for it this summer. He had a blood test this week, and his numbers were the best they have ever been. It's been hard, but this has been the first time in my life I've really been able to "Let go and let God".

latebloomer

BananaCake · Jun 1, 2007

Anna, Donna, Leanna, that really helps A LOT! Thanks for taking the time to try and explain it a different way.

Leanna · Jun 1, 2007

What is NP?

Wouldn't you know David has taken to a new destructive behavior towards books.... peeling the back cover.... we may have to put the books away again unless he is supervised

annaapple · Jun 1, 2007

NP = my abbreviation for Non-Punitive

DonnaB · Jun 1, 2007

Leanna said:
What is NP?

Wouldn't you know David has taken to a new destructive behavior towards books.... peeling the back cover.... we may have to put the books away again unless he is supervised

lol--For some reason every time I give advice to another parent, DD starts to do that behavior too. A couple of weeks ago, there was a topic here about toddlers eating. We've never had a problem, DD loves to eat, eats almost everything, etc. Of course, for the last two days eating has turned into such a trial--it's like she is hardly hungry.

Keeps me humble!

Leanna · Jun 1, 2007

Yeah David is my picky eater, although I have started seeing the glass as half full.... he IS picky but he does eat veggies and fruits which many toddlers don't..... but it does still make mealtime an issue since he doesn't eat any "normal meals" like I tend to make for dinner.....

Leanna · Jun 9, 2007

Oh my goodness, I wish GCM was open to share this, but David was refusing to brush his teeth for bedtime with his daddy and started a "tantrum" and crying and suddenly David says "I got frustrated!!!" and then he pulled himself together and complied.... he's learning to use his words really well ..... that's neat, lol....

annaapple · Jun 10, 2007

Excellent!!! Way to go - that's so encouraging for the rest of us.

annaapple · Jun 10, 2007

Looks like I can't rep you either ;-)

JulySheMustFly · Jun 10, 2007

Leanna said:
Oh my goodness, I wish GCM was open to share this, but David was refusing to brush his teeth for bedtime with his daddy and started a "tantrum" and crying and suddenly David says "I got frustrated!!!" and then he pulled himself together and complied.... he's learning to use his words really well ..... that's neat, lol....

Isn't it cool when you see them processing their actions. JJ & Conny have had times like that lately. They'll be crying and I'll encourage them to use their words so we can work together on the problem. JJ's started to say, "Ok, I need alone to find my words." She walks away then comes back with her thoughts and we work through it.

Mama_Piadosa · Jun 12, 2007

OK-if I admitt to reading the first 4 pages and the last one- can I still join you guys?

I really struggle with the medium kiddos- the 2 year old and the teen- the ones that are suppossed to be hard- really aren't all that challenging for me right now.

My 10 yo dd- is being disrespectful and outright refusing to do stuff- oh and she is pushing he brother's buttons on purpose all the time.

My 8 yo ds has emotional issues and I am just tightrope walking trying to avoid a rage.

anyway- glad to see this thread.

RooMama · Jun 15, 2007

We had a kind of positive thing yesterday! The day started off pretty badly. I was nursing the wee baby in another room and my husband had left the boys alone in the family room. Well, C sat on P's back. P was clearly hurting so my husband sent C to his room while he checked P out. He was okay, nothing broken or out of place. DH went back to talk to C and instead of punishing him told him that he would not be allowed to be alone in the same room as P for the rest of the day. He was thinking that C would stay in his room whenever I couldn't be with both boys, but instead, I made C follow me around all day. He came with while I did laundry and changed diapers and made lunch, etc. and didn't fuss about it at all. We would talk about being gentle and not hurting P and had much less fuss in general for the rest of the day.

[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

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