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[OPEN] Should we Circumcise or not? [split from "Searching for a Messianic Mohel"]

Wags

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The text says that one of the signs of the new covenant is that ALL will know and no more will there be a need to teach others to "know the Lord."

To say that the New Covenant is already in place, and that it only applies to believers just doesn't make sense, and doesn't agree with the plain meaning of the text.

Yeshua said that the gospel was to be preached to ALL the world - so obviously He thought that there was a need for people to be taught.
 
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Charles YTK

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I do not believe the torah was done away with. It was fulfilled. And the parts of it that pertain to us in the New Covenant remian as eternal instructions to be observed. Obviously since Yeshua is the High piest something that the law does not allow, there was a change in the Torah. The New Covenant is not administered by the Levites. It is administered by the spirit of Messiah in us.

All Gentiles who wanted to follow God were allowed to do so. Circumcision of the Gentiles was not required except to kill and eat the Passover, because the Passover was given only to blood sons of Israel, before the Sinai covenant. Circumcision and the Passover take place under the Abrahamic covenant before the Sinai covenant is made.

In all other matters including offering a sacrifice the stranger is treated the same as the native born. There was no court for Gentiles in the Tabernacle or in the first temple. The requirement of Gentiles to convert and be circumcised did not take place until the time of the Hasmoneans in 165 BCE. It s a Rabbinical law, not a Torah command.

And now circumcision means nothing and uncircumcision means nothing. What means something is being a new creature. Gal 6:15
 
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Yovel

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Wags,
here is the scripture you were quoting.

Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
I agree with you. The new covenant that Jerermiah is quoting hasn't happened yet.
 
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Charles YTK

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The text says that one of the signs of the new covenant is that ALL will know and no more will there be a need to teach others to "know the Lord."

To say that the New Covenant is already in place, and that it only applies to believers just doesn't make sense, and doesn't agree with the plain meaning of the text.

Yeshua said that the gospel was to be preached to ALL the world - so obviously He thought that there was a need for people to be taught.


The only way a person can have this personal knowledge of God, this intimate experience, is through faith in Yeshua and receiving his spirit. It is the spirit who brings us before God in the spiritual realm.

All men will know God yes, when they accept Messiah. Does a Satanist have intimate knowledge of God? Certainly not! No one who rejects Yeshua will have this kind of intimacy. And one day when the full harvest takes place perhaps there will be none left on earth who have not received the spirit and therefore every man will know God. But until that happens, those who are first-fruits of the New Coveant do know him.

People do need to be taught. We are to preach to them concerning Yeshua. We are commissioned to be his witnesses. He did not send us out to preach Torah. That has been done since Moshe. We are to preach Yeshua. And when a man accepts Yeshua he receives the spirit and then comes to know God in a new way. Isn't this exactly what we see happening over and over in the book of acts? Isn't that what happen to you? Did you come to know God only through Torah. Or did the spirit in you teach you about God and open your yes to how Torah was speaking about Yeshua? Isn't the Torah about Him? And can you understand scripture correctly without the spirit to guide you? Does all the common men receive the spirit under the Sinai covenant? No! Only prophets and kings received this anoiting and it was conditional. It could be taken away. But we who believe receive the Spirit, everyone of us and he never leaves us. This is only New Covenant.

Wags, don't fight it. The scriptures are clear. All he new Testament is about living in the New Covenant. That is what new Testament means. New Covenant. Hebrews was written to comfort the Jews who saw the temple system ending and didn't understand what to do. Hebrew explains how the New Covenant and new priesthood is the fulfillment of that which was projected in the Old Covenant. Read it. Savor it.
 
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HaNotsri

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I agree as well Wags.

The requirement of Gentiles to convert and be circumcised did not take place until the time of the Hasmoneans in 165 BCE.

Not true, read the book of Tobit. It talks about converts who attached themselves to Israel during the time of the exile. Conversion is a well-established custom by the time Hasmoneans were around (I would argue that it has been around since the time of Abraham)
 
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Charles YTK

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Wags,
here is the scripture you were quoting.

I agree with you. The new covenant that Jerermiah is quoting hasn't happened yet.

If it hasn't happen yet Yovel then NONE of it has happened. You have not had your sins forgiven, you have not had the law written on your heart, you have not received a new heart, and you have not received the spirit. I'm betting that you have recived these things. And if you have you did so under the New Covenant. For that is the only place they are given.

You have to make up your mind. Are you receiving and experiencing these things? If you are then you are in the New Covenant because they were not given to men in the Sinai covenant. If you have not received these things then you are still in the old covenant and are not His, not messiahs, because he says unless you receive the spirit you are none of his.

Let me ask you a few questions to see if you are in the old covenant or the New?

Are your sins cleansed by the blood of Messiah or by the blood of an animal?

Do you receive your blessing form a Levite or from Messiah?

Are you filled with God's Spirit or are you relying upon the word of the Levite?

When you sin do you go to God in repentence or do you take two turtle doves to the Levite in the temple?

Are you made clean by the washing of Yeshua or do you get sprinkled by the ashes of the red heifer?

Has the Torah been written upon your hearts or do you only seek to obey the letter of the Torah?

Do you know God on a personal basis or do you relate to him through the Levite?

Are you one in faith with all who believe both Jew and Gentile, or are you exclusive to God as a Jew?

The answer to these and many more is that you are not under the Levites and not under the administration of a covenant which was broken and replaced by a New one. You are living as first-fruits of the New Covenant, now as sons and daughters of God, members jointly with all of faith, part of the Kingdom of God.. This is all New Covenant.
 
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Charles YTK

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New Covenant already here.

Hebrews 12[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. [25] See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: [26] Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.


Hebrews 8: [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

RO 15: [8] Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: [9] And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. [10] And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. [11] And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him all ye people. [12] And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

2 Cor 1: [20] For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. [21] Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Cor 6: [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2CO 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.



Gal 3: [21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


HEB 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [2] For by it the elders obtained a good report. [3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


Ro 8: [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


Heb 8: [6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


1 Cor 15: [20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. [21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

James 1: [18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. [19] Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: [20] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. [21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:


 
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ChazakEmunah

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If you are not living in the New Covenant then you do not have the spirit living in you or have the Law written upon your heart. You do not have a persoanl relationship with God. This all happen through the rebirth in the spirit as part of the New Covenant. It did not take place in the Sinai covenant.
First, I do have the Torah written on my heart, just as it is written in D'varim 6:4-9. "And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart." Second, I do have the Shekhina upon me, if not, I would not be able to keep Torah with all my heart. And third, I have a very personal relationship with HaShem. I would challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

So again, I say that Yirmeyahu was restating the covenant. What you are missing is what I've been saying all along. And that is that the covenant transcends Har Sinai, in fact it precedes it. All Yirmeyhau did was restate it. Speaking of which, let's take a close look at this "New Covenant."


Behold, the days come, says HaShem, I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a fresh covenant,not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, as much as they broke my covenant, although I was master over them," says HaShem.

This is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says HaShem, I will put My Torah within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people;and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying: 'Know HaShem,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says HaShem; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.
Yirmeyahu 31:31-34


Okay, let's look at a couple things here.

One, we see that HaShem plans to make a fresh (renewed) covenant with Beit Yisrael and Beit Y'hudah. Did that happen while Rabbi Y'hoshua was alive? No? Let's move on.

Two, we see that HaShem would write his Torah upon our hearts. This is an exact verbatim quote of the Sh'ma. See D'varim 6:4-9.

So what changes are made if it is just a restatment of the Sh'ma? We get our answer in verse 34.

So point number three is that under the "Fresh (Renewed) Covenant" no one will have to teach anyone about HaShem. Why? Because in that day, everyone will already know him. Now, you have to ask, has that happened yet? Do we no longer teach people about HaShem? No? Then we are not living under the "Fresh (Renewed) Covenant."


The New Covenant is with Judah and Israel. Yes it was offered to them first. And then they are reunited as one Israel and the covenant is made with them. This is faithful Israel those who accepted Yeshua as Messiah and have received the New Covenant. And it includes faithful Gentiles..
No, nowhere does the Tanakh say that it would only be offered to them "first." It specifically says "Beit Yisrael and Beit Y'hudah." How is there provision for Goyim then? Righteous Goyim are permitted into the Olam Haba only by joining themselves to Am Yisrael.


Shalom,
Chazak Emunah
 
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Wags

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So Abraham, Moses and David didn't have a personal and intimate relationship with the Most High? Agian that doesn't make any sense.

Sins were never cleansed by the blood of animals - scrpiture is quite clear on that. And it is quite clear on the rest of it too.

I would say to you Charles, "don't fight it, the scriptures are clear".
 
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stone

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No, nowhere does the Tanakh say that it would only be offered to them "first." It specifically says "Beit Yisrael and Beit Y'hudah." How is there provision for Goyim then? Righteous Goyim are permitted into the Olam Haba only by joining themselves to Am Yisrael.


Shalom,
Chazak Emunah


maybe this is missing the mark, but:

Isaiah 25:6-8 6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. 7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

***


Now, i see here the words, "all people" followed by removeing tears from "all faces" and then, "the rebuke of his people" which of course is Israel, is written last.

It appears to me that the light that Israel was to be for the nations, failed to be that light.

***

Isaiah 5:1-7 1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: 2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. 3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. 4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
 
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Charles YTK

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Why do you think there was so much excitement about the events of Shavuot when the spirit came. And again when people heard the Gospel and blieved there was evidence of the spirit being poured out. The apostles treat this as a new thing not as something that had always been happening from the beginning. And why would Joel and Jeremiah speak of these things as being future, to take place in the days ahead if they were already a part of the covenant through Moshe. That is what does not make sense.

And what does Jeremiah say about the New Covenant?, It will not even be like the covenant of Sinai when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt. So how cold this be a renewal of the covenant if it is not going to be anything like the old covenant. That is what does not make sense. Jeremiah says "Behold the days are coming (Future not now) when I will make a new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel". And then after that he says, "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days." What happened to Judah was he left out after all? Certainly not. This change represents the reunification of Israel as a single nation. They were two kingdoms when the prophecy was given, but they will be one kingdom when the covenant is made. Was Israel all one nation in the days of Yeshua? Yes according to the sriptures, JAS 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
James considered them all represented at that time.

So now lets look at Joel:

JOEL 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: [29] And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. [30] And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.


The spirit is to be poured out in the future after Joels day. It had not been poured out on the general populace at that time. Only prophets and kings had the spirit. But look at Shavuot and Peter under the direction of the spirit identifies that day as the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel.

[15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. [16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Peter connects these two. This is the beginning of a new thing, something that had never happened before. And when does it end? At the end of the tribulation when the Lord comes for the faithful. We see it at the 6th seal, which is the end of the tribulation:
First from Joel: [30] And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. [32] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Rev 6[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This outpouring of the spirit never happened in the way it has since the Shavuot of the year of the resurrection, and it continues all through this time until Messiah returns.It is a New Covenant event, not an Old Covenant provision.
 
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MattyJames

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Once again Charles - as a Third party I find your personal comments to ChazakEmunah very afronting. To say that one doesn't have an intimate relationship with HaShem is very, very derogatory.

I'm finding your attitude to be rather pitiful. To be blunt.

ChazakEmunah - I find some of your ideals in this thread contradicting Scripture. It is late - so I don't have time to elaborate. But one scripture I'd like to throw in the mix.

Luke 22:20 'Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, 'this cup is the New Covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.'

In my reading of the Brit Hadasha there seems to be a definate 'New Covenant' made. Afterall, the Testator had died, and therefore there must be a 'New Testiment' drawn up.

Another point. When the Covenant at Sinai was made, the people of Israel hadn't entered the Promise Land, the which was/is integral to the effectual running of that Covenant. It wasn't untill 40 years after, that the Conditions of that Covenant were met.

So likewise with the 'New Covenant', the conditions haven't been met, there are future conditions that will be met. This doesn't 'undo' the effectual working of the Covenant. Much like Daniel and Ezra - while they were unable to see the fulfillment of the Conditions - the 'Covenant' still stood.

Am I makeing my thoughts clear??

Just my two bobs worth.

regards,

MJ
 
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Charles YTK

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Once again Charles - as a Third party I find your personal comments to ChazakEmunah very afronting. To say that one doesn't have an intimate relationship with HaShem is very, very derogatory.

I'm finding your attitude to be rather pitiful. To be blunt.


regards,

MJ

Matty,

My comments to Chazak were an expression of the scriptures and the words of Messiah. Would you prefer I distort the Gospel and tell him that it's OK he does not need Yeshua as his Savior, his messiah that all he needs to do is be keeping Torah the best he can? Is this what the Aposltes and Paul told the Jews? Did they tell them, yes you are all fine just go to the synagogue and study Torah and you will have eternal life and Gentile will only get Eternal life if they become part of Israel. Is that the Gospel?

I care enough for Chazak to share the Gospel with him. As a Messianic I believe in the Messiahship of Yeshua and our need for him to provide us with the new birth through the spirit. I believe his words. Yeshua died for Chavak as well as he rest of us and he needs to know that. Who is going to tell him if we who believe are unwilling to? This is our commission from Yeshua to make disciples of all men, starting with the Jewish brothers in Judea. I share the Gospel and the words of Messiah to us. And if they are offensive to anyone then know this, the Gospel has always been an offence to the Jews who trust in Moshe and not in Yeshua. I will not distort the truth nor praise the rejection of Yeshua in order to maintain some social graces, not when we are in a debate over the validity of the Person and authority of Yeshua and his word. I will stand for Messiah. I am his disciple not Moshes.
 
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Wags

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Luke 22:20 'Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, 'this cup is the New Covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.'

In my reading of the Brit Hadasha there seems to be a definate 'New Covenant' made. Afterall, the Testator had died, and therefore there must be a 'New Testiment' drawn up.

Another point. When the Covenant at Sinai was made, the people of Israel hadn't entered the Promise Land, the which was/is integral to the effectual running of that Covenant. It wasn't untill 40 years after, that the Conditions of that Covenant were met.

So likewise with the 'New Covenant', the conditions haven't been met, there are future conditions that will be met. This doesn't 'undo' the effectual working of the Covenant. Much like Daniel and Ezra - while they were unable to see the fulfillment of the Conditions - the 'Covenant' still stood.

Am I makeing my thoughts clear??

Interesting point MJ. At first blush it makes sense. But of course I will have to do a bit of study before I can formally agree.:)
 
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Tishri1

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Howdy folks, our new friend Chazak has changed his Icon from MJ to Jew and I dont quite understand why but I would just like to say that it does cause some confusion with his posts in this thread.....just know that when these posts were made every comment was addressed to someone who was suppose to be MJ and now they may seem strange at best....Charles was the first to notice this morning and I think he suspected it before the Icon change too.....anyway all that to say misunderstandings erupt when we are thrown a bone like this, and lets just proceed with grace, love and Truth (now that we also have a clearer Truth about this poster too)

Thanks, love you all,
Tish

PS I just got a PM from Chazak and he didnt mean to confuse us and is sorry if he did....
 
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Charles YTK

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In my reading of the Brit Hadasha there seems to be a definate 'New Covenant' made. Afterall, the Testator had died, and therefore there must be a 'New Testiment' drawn up.

Another point. When the Covenant at Sinai was made, the people of Israel hadn't entered the Promise Land, the which was/is integral to the effectual running of that Covenant. It wasn't untill 40 years after, that the Conditions of that Covenant were met.

So likewise with the 'New Covenant', the conditions haven't been met, there are future conditions that will be met. This doesn't 'undo' the effectual working of the Covenant. Much like Daniel and Ezra - while they were unable to see the fulfillment of the Conditions - the 'Covenant' still stood.


MJ

Matty,

This is a good point and one that I have been trying to demonstrate from the New Covenant. But you are correct that it existed also in the Sinai covenant. It is the principle of the first-fruits. The folks in the wilderness for 38 years were to live within the terms of the covenant even though all the conditions and it's provisions would not be realized untill they became established in the promised land. Not just crossing the river, but when the Pagans were dealt with and they actually took posession of the lands of Israel. Many points in the Sinai covenant are addressed as "When you shall enter the lands which I am giving you , you shall . . . .. So those have to wait until it is time for that.

So also in the New Covenant. We have not seen the final harvest yet, and all the nations have not been brought under Gods footstool, which does not happen until after the return of Messiah, and the nations are not yet required to come up every year to Sukkot, but these will come in their time. So will every man knowing the Lord. For now beginning with the Apostles we are first-fruits of the New Covenant and are already living in the Kingdom way even though the rest of the world does not see it yet. Yeshua is already our King and we obey him. The Aposltes understood this principle that those who first believed were first-fruits and not the final harvest.

Ro 16: [5] Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

James 1: [18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We go before the others and prepare the way. When the Sinai covenant was made Israel was a nation of slaves. When they are finished with their trek in the wilderness they have become an army for God and a nation of priests. They have trained and prepared for the time of taking posession of the promise. We do the same in ths age as we wait for Messiah's return.

Yeshua was the first-fruits of all those who will be raised from the dead. Notice that there are others like Lazzarus and the womans son, and the many at the tme of the resurrection, but they are not part of the general resurrection of the righteous. They did not receive Glorified bodies that are immortal. They only received a reprieve from death and were a sign for Gods power. Those who are resurrected at His return receive the glorified body and are part of the first resurrection. I point this out so that no one become confused. There are first fruits of the Covenant, firstfruits of the resurrection and firstfruits of the special ministers to God, seen in the 144000 in revelation. First fruits is the early harvest from each group or field.

1 Cor 15: [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
 
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MattyJames

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Matty,

My comments to Chazak were an expression of the scriptures and the words of Messiah. Would you prefer I distort the Gospel and tell him that it's OK he does not need Yeshua as his Savior, his messiah that all he needs to do is be keeping Torah the best he can? Is this what the Aposltes and Paul told the Jews? Did they tell them, yes you are all fine just go to the synagogue and study Torah and you will have eternal life and Gentile will only get Eternal life if they become part of Israel. Is that the Gospel?

I care enough for Chazak to share the Gospel with him. As a Messianic I believe in the Messiahship of Yeshua and our need for him to provide us with the new birth through the spirit. I believe his words. Yeshua died for Chavak as well as he rest of us and he needs to know that. Who is going to tell him if we who believe are unwilling to? This is our commission from Yeshua to make disciples of all men, starting with the Jewish brothers in Judea. I share the Gospel and the words of Messiah to us. And if they are offensive to anyone then know this, the Gospel has always been an offence to the Jews who trust in Moshe and not in Yeshua. I will not distort the truth nor praise the rejection of Yeshua in order to maintain some social graces, not when we are in a debate over the validity of the Person and authority of Yeshua and his word. I will stand for Messiah. I am his disciple not Moshes.

Charles - once again - in Chazak's defence - you've twisted his words. I too have faith in Yeshua, but I also belive in the neccesity of the observance of Torah for salvation. I know some might find that rather 'heretical' - but I must stand by my convictions.

I am not a disciple of Moshe, but I believe that all who keep the Torah will see eternal life.

I do not find this view to be in conflict with Messiah or the Brit Hadasha.

MJ
 
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MattyJames

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Matty,

This is a good point and one that I have been trying to demonstrate from the New Covenant. But you are correct that it existed also in the Sinai covenant. It is the principle of the first-fruits. The folks in the wilderness for 38 years were to live within the terms of the covenant even though all the conditions and it's provisions would not be realized untill they became established in the promised land. Not just crossing the river, but when the Pagans were dealt with and they actually took posession of the lands of Israel. Many points in the Sinai covenant are addressed as "When you shall enter the lands which I am giving you , you shall . . . .. So those have to wait until it is time for that.

So also in the New Covenant. We have not seen the final harvest yet, and all the nations have not been brought under Gods footstool, which does not happen until after the return of Messiah, and the nations are not yet required to come up every year to Sukkot, but these will come in their time. So will every man knowing the Lord. For now beginning with the Apostles we are first-fruits of the New Covenant and are already living in the Kingdom way even though the rest of the world does not see it yet. Yeshua is already our King and we obey him. The Aposltes understood this principle that those who first believed were first-fruits and not the final harvest.

Ro 16: [5] Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

James 1: [18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We go before the others and prepare the way. When the Sinai covenant was made Israel was a nation of slaves. When they are finished with their trek in the wilderness they have become an army for God and a nation of priests. They have trained and prepared for the time of taking posession of the promise. We do the same in ths age as we wait for Messiah's return.

Yeshua was the first-fruits of all those who will be raised from the dead. Notice that there are others like Lazzarus and the womans son, and the many at the tme of the resurrection, but they are not part of the general resurrection of the righteous. They did not receive Glorified bodies that are immortal. They only received a reprieve from death and were a sign for Gods power. Those who are resurrected at His return receive the glorified body and are part of the first resurrection. I point this out so that no one become confused. There are first fruits of the Covenant, firstfruits of the resurrection and firstfruits of the special ministers to God, seen in the 144000 in revelation. First fruits is the early harvest from each group or field.

1 Cor 15: [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Despite our contentions, yes I see your point. And I think it is a valid one. I haven't studied it in too much depth - but from the surface it seems to be the obvious conclusion. BTW: We aslo see the same thing happeneing in the Abrahamic Covenant. The crux of that Covenant is yet to be implemented, but the Covenant is sure, it is established and it is in effect today.

MJ
 
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