[OPEN] Should we Circumcise or not? [split from "Searching for a Messianic Mohel"]

[Charles YTK]

Matty,

I too believe thre are things in the Torah given to Moshe that are also found in the New covenant Torah which is written on the heart. I am assured of it because Yeshua taught it, or the Apostles taught it or it is given by the prophets who are speaking about the Millennial (Messianic) Kingdom. These things we can and should do whether Jew or Gentile.

There is no call for us to observe Jewish traditions. For example weaing Kippot; many Messianics do. But why? It is not even a biblical command for the Jews to wear Kippot. It is a cultural tradition. So the only reason for me to wear one is out of respect for my Jewish brothers when visiting their synagogue or function that would require me to.

Nowhere does the bible tell us to light the Sabbath candles even though the Baracha says God commands it, it is not a Torah command. It is a Jewish cultural tradition and a fine one. But it was not given to anyone by God and not to the gentiles for sure.

There are many things that Messianics have taken upon themselves believing they are commanded by God when really they are Rabbinical or cultural traditions.

Most Messianics might find they are closer to God and his righteousness if they stopped doing things from the Christian traditions that are actually against God's laws and instructions, like their Holy Statues and idols, or Iconography, and Sunday instead of Sabbath, and eating the suposed flesh and blood of Yeshua and unclean food which God calls an abomination.

Paul said that the Gentiles who had no teaching or understanding of the Torah were doing the righteous requirements of the Torah and that demonstrated that they had the law written on their hearts. Paul praises them for doing exactly what God requires of us all. And they never had to study Jewish culture, or copy the Jewish practices, or their religion. They understood from their hearts what God requires. It is what the Lord called "The weightier matters of the law".

 

[MattyJames]

Matty,

I too believe thre are things in the Torah given to Moshe that are also found in the New covenant Torah which is written on the heart. I am assured of it because Yeshua taught it, or the Apostles taught it or it is given by the prophets who are speaking about the Millennial (Messianic) Kingdom. These things we can and should do whether Jew or Gentile.

There is no call for us to observe Jewish traditions. For example weaing Kippot; many Messianics do. But why? It is not even a biblical command for the Jews to wear Kippot. It is a cultural tradition. So the only reason for me to wear one is out of respect for my Jewish brothers when visiting their synagogue or function that would require me to.

Nowhere does the bible tell us to light the Sabbath candles even though the Baracha says God commands it, it is not a Torah command. It is a Jewish cultural tradition and a fine one. But it was not given to anyone by God and not to the gentiles for sure.

There are many things that Messianics have taken upon themselves believing they are commanded by God when really they are Rabbinical or cultural traditions.

Most Messianics might find they are closer to God and his righteousness if they stopped doing things from the Christian traditions that are actually against God's laws and instructions, like their Holy Statues and idols, or Iconography, and Sunday instead of Sabbath, and eating the suposed flesh and blood of Yeshua and unclean food which God calls an abomination.

Paul said that the Gentiles who had no teaching or understanding of the Torah were doing the righteous requirements of the Torah and that demonstrated that they had the law written on their hearts. Paul praises them for doing exactly what God requires of us all. And they never had to study Jewish culture, or copy the Jewish practices, or their religion. They understood from their hearts what God requires. It is what the Lord called "The weightier matters of the law".

Where in my post did I mention Jewish Traditions?

I mentioned 'Torah'. Not Jewish traditions. Yes, there are 'Weightier matters of the Law', but one does not undo the other. For eg: One cannot be called 'Righteous' if they don't steal - whilest not observing the Shabbat or Moedim. Gods commands are Gods commands. (Note: I'm not talking about Jewish Tradition - Tradition is not Gods commands).
Deut 6:25 'and it shall be our righteousness if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God as he hath commanded us.'

To make it clear - the Torah of Moshe is not Jewish Tradition. Wearing the Kippa and Lighting the Candles are Jewish Tradition. I do not do either.

I'm not sure as to what your last post was addressing? Me or Chavak?

Thanks,

Matt James

 

[Charles YTK]

Where in my post did I mention Jewish Traditions?

I mentioned 'Torah'. Not Jewish traditions. Yes, there are 'Weightier matters of the Law', but one does not undo the other. For eg: One cannot be called 'Righteous' if they don't steal - whilest not observing the Shabbat or Moedim. Gods commands are Gods commands. (Note: I'm not talking about Jewish Tradition - Tradition is not Gods commands).
Deut 6:25 'and it shall be our righteousness if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God as he hath commanded us.'

To make it clear - the Torah of Moshe is not Jewish Tradition. Wearing the Kippa and Lighting the Candles are Jewish Tradition. I do not do either.

I'm not sure as to what your last post was addressing? Me or Chavak?

Thanks,

Matt James

Matty,

Let's look at this one verse for a minute:

Deut 6:25 'and it shall be our righteousness if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God as he hath commanded us.'

I was curious about this verse in the past because the Torah does not teach observance of Torah as a way to become righteous in the same sense that Christians think of Righteous, which is to be justified, to be counted worthy or saved. To the Jew at the time of Deuteronomy righteous means to be lawful, to keep the law and follow God's commandments. And when you read this verse in its origin language with its meaning adjusted for context what it says is,

"It will be a good thing to do and rightful thing for us to keep all these commandments the Lord has commanded."

It is an affirmation that "we would be doing ourselves a favor to obey God." The promise of the Sinai covenant is not eternal life in heaven, it is prosperity in the land and freedom from wars and plagues. The payoff of keeping the Sinai Covenant is here and now, in this lifetime, not pie in the sky by and by.


Now being called righteous means to be law abiding, not holy, not saved, not guaranteed heaven. And when we look at Abraham we see his faith is counted to him as righteousness. His trusting God is counted as if he knew and kept all the laws of God, and he did not have all the laws of God. Because he believed God and followed his little nudges and direction on what to do on a moment by moment relationship, not because he had a codice of law that he kept.

So the idea that keeping the commandment makes you righteous is a faulted idea. Faith is what counts. Keeping the commandments is a smart thing to do. Don't be fool and resist God.

You say a man who does not steal but does not keep the moedim or sabbath is not righteous. Well then there are none righteous. For no one on this earth since 70 CE has been able to keep the Moedim. read the scriptures and it is easy to see that we are not and can not keep them. Without temple, priest and sacrifice it is impossible. So none are righteous by the law.
Gal 2: [16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Unless you are walking in faith and not trusting works of the old law and realize that Yeshua has become our final sacrifice and that we must trust in that then you ae not saved. He is our sin offering our peace offering, our passover and our fellowship offering and most importantly he is our atonement and our high priest who offers them all for us. We must attach ourselve to those through faith in him.

Heb 8: [6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9: [11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; [12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

[MattyJames]

Ok...Firstly its 2:35am here - so I really need to be heading to bed.

Charles. My interpretation of Deut 6:25 is not based on that one scripture. It is from the reading of all scripture.
IMO your interpretation is questionable.

Before I head off. Remember - Faith without works is dead.

I'll relpy in detail in the morning.

Shabbat Shalom to all,

Matt James

 

[Shimshon]

Very true, Faith without works is dead.

John 6:29 Jesus answered them, This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


But who is doing the working in us?

"This is the work of God"

Are we alive that we work ourselves for the Glory God gives us? Or are we dead to this world and alive 'only' in that Messiah lives in us and 'works' in us through the Spirit according to the will of Abba.

1 cor 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.


The work of God is to believe in the One who He sent. He who believes in the One who was sent has the Father dwelling within his soul because he has been immersed with the Spirit of Fire, the Holy Spirit. And in union with God the 'believer' does the work of God. To witness the gospel to all the world. The good news that states who Yeshua is and what he has done and why. We witness 'the words of this Life'. This is the work of God, to reveal His Glory to the world.

1 Tim 3:15 so that if I am delayed, you may know how one should behave in the household of God, which is the Messianic Community of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Did you know you were a pillar and a support of the truth within the household of God? If you 'believe in him' who was sent. This is the work of God, to believe in the One whom he sent. Mashiach!!!

Faith in Messiah is the work of God. It is a gift that only God can give. A work that only God can do. Cause you, a blind sinner to see and believe in the One whom the Father sent.

Without this work of God, faith is meaningless. Nothing at all, void. Without being caused to believe in Him through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we have nothing but words and empty deeds.

 

[MattyJames]

Very true, Faith without works is dead.

John 6:29 Jesus answered them, This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


But who is doing the working in us?

"This is the work of God"

Are we alive that we work ourselves for the Glory God gives us? Or are we dead to this world and alive 'only' in that Messiah lives in us and 'works' in us through the Spirit according to the will of Abba.

1 cor 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.


The work of God is to believe in the One who He sent. He who believes in the One who was sent has the Father dwelling within his soul because he has been immersed with the Spirit of Fire, the Holy Spirit. And in union with God the 'believer' does the work of God. To witness the gospel to all the world. The good news that states who Yeshua is and what he has done and why. We witness 'the words of this Life'. This is the work of God, to reveal His Glory to the world.

1 Tim 3:15 so that if I am delayed, you may know how one should behave in the household of God, which is the Messianic Community of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Did you know you were a pillar and a support of the truth within the household of God? If you 'believe in him' who was sent. This is the work of God, to believe in the One whom he sent. Mashiach!!!

Faith in Messiah is the work of God. It is a gift that only God can give. A work that only God can do. Cause you, a blind sinner to see and believe in the One whom the Father sent.

Without this work of God, faith is meaningless. Nothing at all, void. Without being caused to believe in Him through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we have nothing but words and empty deeds.

I haven't the energy to fully respond.

To sum up my thoughts - IMO you have gravely missunderstood scripture. Furthermore - this understanding makes light of the entire Tenach, and the prophets and the lives they lived.

Exo 32:33 And Jehovah said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Sorry if you find that offencive - but to me its plain commen sence.

MJ

 

[Charles YTK]

Did Yeshua come to enforce the Torah and return people to Moshe? Or did he come to fulfil the law, make a New Covenant and present the Kingdom of God?

The Tanakh and the Torah laws pointed to the coming of the Kingdom of God and salvation through Messiah ie the new covenant. The Tanakh has the promise of the New Covenant but is not itself that covenant. The New Covenant is made through Messiah. That is why the pages after the blank page in the middle of your bible is called "The New Covenant". That is what the back half of your bible is is about.

The Torah it says could not bring us to the Goal, so how could Torah BE the Goal if it was unable to bring us to it. All it could do is show it to us and prepare us for it. The reality of it is life in union with God through the spirit of Messiah living in us, which is provided in the New Covenant.

 

[MattyJames]

Did Yeshua come to enforce the Torah and return people to Moshe? Or did he come to fulfil the law, make a New Covenant and present the Kingdom of God?

The Tanakh and the Torah laws pointed to the coming of the Kingdom of God and salvation through Messiah ie the new covenant. The Tanakh has the promise of the New Covenant but is not itself that covenant. The New Covenant is made through Messiah. That is why the pages after the blank page in the middle of your bible is called "The New Covenant". That is what the back half of your bible is is about.

The Torah it says could not bring us to the Goal, so how could Torah BE the Goal if it was unable to bring us to it. All it could do is show it to us and prepare us for it. The reality of it is life in union with God through the spirit of Messiah living in us, which is provided in the New Covenant.

Charles..where within the NT (or OT) Text does God reherse the exact terms of the Covenenat?

MJ

 

[Charles YTK]

Charles..where within the NT (or OT) Text does God reherse the exact terms of the Covenenat?

MJ

Which Covenant?

The Old Covenant is specified in Exodus and Deuteronomy and repeated in Psalms and other places.

EX 19: [5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
EX 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. [9] And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

The New Covenant is specified in Deut 18, Deut 30, Jeremiah 31, EZ 11, 36, Joel 2, Daniel, to name a few and in the New Testament beginning in Matt and ending in Rev.

 

[Wags]

Nevermind, started a new thread to avoid further thread drift....

 

[MattyJames]

Which Covenant?

The Old Covenant is specified in Exodus and Deuteronomy and repeated in Psalms and other places.

EX 19: [5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
EX 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. [8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. [9] And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

The New Covenant is specified in Deut 18, Deut 30, Jeremiah 31, EZ 11, 36, Joel 2, Daniel, to name a few and in the New Testament beginning in Matt and ending in Rev.

I think this says a lot about why we disagree at length.

A covenant is made in a particular time and place. Just like God came down with Abraham and further along with the Children of Israel, in a certain place at a certain time, so the New Covenant is the Same. A Covenant has TWO parties, and is bi-lateral. I know your 'unilateral' stance on this, but think through it a little. 'Uni' means one. A Covenant (deal, agreement, contract) is not between one - its between two. And likewise there are also stipulation to both parties, regardless of how big or small. If it is 'Unilateral' is it of Promise, not Covenant.

Let me draw an example, Ananias and Sapphira. Both were in the Covenant (what ever that may be) untill they lied. At the time of they're sin they were out of the Covenant, it is evident in the way they died.
So likewise, Peter says (2 Pet 2:20)
2Pe 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire.

What is the crux - don't take to the plow and look back.
or as Messiah would say.
Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Mat 10:38 And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.
Mat 10:39 He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.

In short there is a cost. To both sides.

The point it this -
1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body, which is broken for you; this do in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also, after supping, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant in My blood; as often as you drink it, do this in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:26 For "as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you show" the Lord's death until He shall come.
1Co 11:27 So that whoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily, he will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he who eats and drinks unworthily eats and drinks condemnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Ok...I've rambled a bit from the point I was trying to make. But I thought I'd get it out there.

The original strain of thought was that to me - The Covenant was at a certain time and place. In common speech - Messiah cut a deal with the Disciples - and for everyone else who follows.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is My body.
Mat 26:27 And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of it.
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This was the deal meal. This is the terms of the New Covenant. The meal was Messiah, and the Sacrifice was His body. This is the place where we see the New Covenant established. Once seen from that light - it changes everything.

MJ