• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

[open] For those of us who are liberal, why?

Fish Catcher Jim

Radically Saved
Feb 19, 2015
562
490
SW MI for now
✟27,083.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Greetings,
I mean no disrespect and I am just asking because to me it sounds like liberal Christian is an oxymoron

open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

How can you justify this type of thinking against God's Word?

Again I am just asking because I don't get it as all.
Blessings
FCJ
 
  • Like
Reactions: razzelflabben
Upvote 0

SnowyMacie

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
17,008
6,087
North Texas
✟125,659.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Greetings,
I mean no disrespect and I am just asking because to me it sounds like liberal Christian is an oxymoron

open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

How can you justify this type of thinking against God's Word?

Again I am just asking because I don't get it as all.
Blessings
FCJ

Here's how I became liberal...

I grew up in a very conservative, Republican household. I first voted in 2010, and voted for Rick Perry, because Christians are Republican, or at least, conservative. I couldn't fathom how a Christian could be a liberal because they supported gays, abortion, and illegal immigrants. Just to give you an idea on just how conservative I was in high school, I asked my counselor to move me to a different Speech class solely because my teacher was gay. Anyway, when I graduated high school, also in 2010, I went to a Christian university that was full of other Christians like myself. During my freshman year, I heard a speaker in chapel one day say a quote I'll never forget "Christians who are Republicans can't fathom how you can be a Christian and Democrat, and on the other hand Christians who are Democrats can't fathom how you can be Christian and Republican." That was my first expose to the mere idea that someone can be a Christian and Democrat. Also, for reasons that I'm not 100% about, I slowly became more libertarian. I think my reasoning was "As a conservative, if I wanted the government to be small, why should they enforce our morality so much?"

I spent most of my time as a sophomore as a libertarian. I was having a conversation with a friend one day, who was talking about how he was a Christian and libertarian to someone else, and mentioned how while he did believe gay marriage was a sin, he didn't think it was the government's job to enforce who two consenting adults sleep with. I realized in that moment that only made sense in my libertarian mindset. It was also during this time that I took, like every other sophomore at my school, "Old Testament Survey." Growing up, I was taught the Israelites sinned against God, but never told why and so I assumed it was things like violence, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. However, when I actually read and studied the prophets, I realized their chief sin was, at best, ignoring the poor and needy, at worst, downright exploiting them. Those others were still there, but that didn't seem to be focus of God. This God actually fit with Jesus, and I realized the true scandal of the gospels isn't just that Jesus is God, but that God is like Jesus.

Over my years as an upperclassmen, I reflected on my views and realized that if I claimed follow Jesus, I couldn't not support thing like universal healthcare, welfare, livable wages, affordable education, etc. Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality* or even abortion, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity. There were some definite wrong things, like my parents teaching me that all homeless people were bums looking to rob you. That's not every detail of the story, but that is basically how I became a liberal Christian.

Here's more about how I interpret scripture on the more hot-button social issues.
*
Romans 1:26-27 - It's really about idolatry, and Paul is using Roman fertility cults as an example of humanity's fallen nature, where both heterosexual and homosexual sex rites occurred frequently. If you read the passage, homosexuality is not listed with the rest of sins at the end of the passage, but clearly related to those as he says "therefore" and "because of this." He's using a very specific (and very familiar in that day) example of it as the unnaturalness of turning from God in such a way where both Jews and Gentiles (a big reason for his writing of Romans was to reconcile the Jews and Gentiles in the church in Rome) can say "Yes, How immoral and disgusting!". Don't get me wrong, he clearly has nothing positive to say about it in this passage, at most he does call it a sin, and at the very least "shameful". It's also worth noting he uses the same word to describe homosexuality in this passage as he does men with long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, a passage we consider to be culturally applied.

1 Corinthians 6:9/1 Tim 1:10 - The only other mentions to homosexuality in the New Testament, besides in Jude, which is a misunderstanding/mistranslations of what actually happened in Sodom, but I'll touch on that in a second. In these passages, Paul mentions the "arsenokoitai", a sinful group. The thing is that we really don't know what the word actually means, which is why it has so many different translations. We don't know what it means partially because of how rare is it used in ancient writings. Anyway, he word, arsenokoitai, is a compound word in Greek that makes references to "male" and "bed", those same words appear in the Greek translation of the Leviticus passage. However, compound words in Greek work different than ours, for example "Cyclops" literally means "round eye". From what we do know, I think it's fairly safe to assume Paul was referencing some kind of homosexual behavior. The problem is that we really have no idea what kind of homosexual behavior, again we really don't know what the words means. I'd say it's likely talking about the practice of married men who would have sex with male youths on the side, a practice frowned upon by many Greeks even though it was publicly practiced. This would also explain why it's not listed with adultery, as according to Greek thought, a side-boy wasn't adultery, and why the "malakoi" (which many scholars think are referencing the young men in these relationships) is mentioned.

Leviticus 18-20 - The beginning of this section of rules in verses 1-4, God is saying he wants to keep the Israelites pure and separate from the cultures surrounding them. This is why people usually list the other things in this passage we look past today, such as getting tattoos, shaving, wearing mixed clothing, or having sex during a woman's period. There's less quoted ones about sacrificing children to Molech (18:21) and eating fruit too quickly from a tree (19:23). Outside of the context of keeping the Israelites separate, it's a very strange collection of rules.

Sodom - Ezekiel says what the sin of Sodom and Gomorra was "This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it" (EZK 16:49-50). You can definitely argue that "abominable things before me" is talking about their homosexuality, but you could also argue that he's referring to the rape (it's safe to assume they did it previously). It's a very big stretch to assume that all same-sex relationships are equal to that, especially when you look at what the mob is actually doing in this story. They've formed an angry mob and are threatening to gang rape the visitors, which isn't the only time it happens in scripture, it also happens in Judges 19. Does these mean that during Bible times, cities were full of gay people looking to rape others? No, it is a threat of humiliating violence, a way of saying "We are in charge around here and you are not welcome" in the worst imaginable way. If you were in prison and a group of large men threatened to rape you. You wouldn't assume they were gay men hitting on you, you would assume they were threatening you with the worst possible punishment. It's the same thing happening in this story and in Judges 19. Although these stories seem strange to us, they would have been readily understood by the earlier readers.


The problem with the view that homosexual relationships are sinful goes much deeper than how we interpret scripture. It says that not only are those referred to in scripture, as there is no reference to committed, monogamous homosexual relationships in scripture, but all gay relationships are sinful.

For example, you know two couples: one gay and one straight. These couples are both Christian, equally devoted to Christ. Both have made a commitment to stay together and be faithful to each other the rest of their lives. They both have a certain sense of balance. In every respect, they are completely identical with the only exception of one being gay and the other straight. We're supposed to celebrate one couple and condemn the other?

Here's another way of explaining that. Suppose my friend James meets and falls in love with a person named Sam. They spend years getting to know each other, and get closer to each other and Christ. They decide to promise to be together for the rest of their lives in marriage. So James comes to me about it, someone who condemns all homosexual relationships, I say "That's immoral! You and Sam are doing a sinful thing before God!" James replies, "Sam is short for Samantha". Suddenly, my opinion changes to "That's wonderful, the best to you! Blessings on your marriage!" The only thing that changed is that in my mind, Sam went from male to female. That one thing, changed the relationship from wrong and disgusting to holy and beautiful - even though literally nothing else changed about anyone's motivations. To me, that doesn't seem to be quite right. There's a discrepancy, and I think people even realize this and that's why they say it's God saying this and not me.

That view is based on the idea that we need to follow Biblical commands regardless of how much sense it makes to us, which people usually cite "Trust in the Lord and lean not on your own understanding" or "the heart is deceitful above all things" to support. There's nothing wrong with that, except, as I just showed you, the texts that condemn homosexuality, can, and have been explained other ways. Furthermore, they mention nothing about committed, monogamous relationships. There's also a big problem with interpreting scripture that way. For example, Romans 13:1, the passage about governmental authorities. We would have to claim that American revolutionaries, civil rights movements, the Nazi resisters, etc. were sinning. While there are those that claim that, the majority of us just know that can't be right. After all, God wrote his law on the hearts of men, and we just inherintely know what the Nazis did was evil. Furthermore, it also shows that no one consistently applies scripture in a literal, word-for-word direct application. Anyone is honest will admit some passages either 1) Don't apply at all today, 2) Still apply, but not what they mean on the surface, 3) Are overruled by other passages or themes. The third of which is where I believe God takes no issue with committed, loving, selfless homosexual relationships.

Romans 13:8-10 "Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law." This should sound like something Jesus said, because Paul is merely rewording/expanding what Jesus is said are the greatest commandments, and is a different wording of what the writer of 1 John is saying in chapter 4 of his. Paul is saying every commandment can be summed up to the rule of "love your neighbor". If we lived our lives in such a way with a truly loving spirit, in loving ways, we would automatically fulfill every one of God's laws. Jesus says the same in gospels, but with Jewish phrasing.

Adultery, murder, greed, etc. are all inherently unloving acts. If you loved your spouse, you don't cheat on someone. If you loved the poor, you wouldn't act greedy towards them. If you love someone, you don't covet what they have you, you are happy good things have come their way. We could literally do this for everyone single one of God's commands. How can you do this with two equally loving, selflessness, etc relationships? You cannot rule one of them sinful just based of gender because it completely contradicts this rule Paul gives here, Jesus says in the gospels - a rule that apply to every commandment.

This isn't just a random passage, Paul spends almost the entire book of Romans building an argument about law, grace, and sin. He uses the word 74 times, this is last time. It's the conclusion of his argument, one that goes back all of the way to the Old Testament "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." A passage, that Jesus references about the principle of the law and how we're supposed to read scriptures.

Jesus and Paul aren't saying we're allowed to break rules sometimes, nor that God is getting soft on sin. God, like us, also knows that mere rules and regulations are not always sufficient to actually define sin, the specifics make a huge difference. For example, killing is a sin and terrible crime, but there are situations, such as self-defense or even accidents, which we do not hold someone accountable, and neither does God, which is why he provided the "Cities of Refuge". As Jesus made clear in his incidents with Pharisees, God judges our actions on a case-by-case basis, taking into account our heart, motives, and specifics of the the situation, not just mindlessly applying a set of rigid rules.

Every one of God's laws has a purpose, and we can see in scripture, even outside of Jesus, when that purpose was no longer needed. Just compare Duet. 23:1-3 to Isaiah 56:3-8, Eunichs are excluded to demonstrate God's holiness, but later that command is no longer necessary to accomplish that purpose and becomes obsolete. Looking at the reasons behind each command rather than just the letter is exactly what Jesus' does with the Sabbath. It explains why God's standards seem to change even though God Himself does not change, and why Christians are getting inked, they don't serve the same purpose anymore as when they were first commanded. Jesus even takes us a bit further to point out the principle of the law actually holds us to a higher standard. That's the entire purpose of the Sermon on the Mount, and over and over again in the rest of the gospels Jesus reiterates that God is more interested in the underlying principles than rules themselves. To suggest a command that doesn't fit into God's underlying principle, love, is not only inconsistent, but unbiblical.

We have a great example left for us by the early church, circumcision. The only scriptures the church had were the Jewish scriptures which commanded circumcision as a sign of allegiance to God, and there was probably less wriggle room in scripture than this. The issue was over whether or not gentiles could become Christians without first being circumcised. The Gentiles in question knew two things: they trusted Jesus and didn't want to take a knife to their manhood. Even Peter and Paul had a public confrontation about this (Gal 2:11-14). The churches ultimate decisions was is that it's following the rules for the sake of the rules.

There's always going to be great arguments on both sides, and that's where I think we need to look at the fruit of the relationship. Sin always shows itself, it promises good things, but never delivers. We see sin as good because we think that's what we'll get out of it, but we never do. If all same-sex relationships were sinful, we wouldn't need theological arguments to tell us that. The bad fruit from those relationships would be readily and clearly apparent. There are those in the gay community that do produce bad fruit, just like there are some heterosexuals that produce bad fruit from their heterosexual relationships and actions. If you ever met Christ-centered gay couple, you'll notice they are identical to our straight counterparts with the exception of one partner's sex. They are really proof that God can and does bless same-sex relationships. After all, bad trees cannot produce good fruit.
None of the passages in scripture about homosexuality are likely talking about modern homosexual relationship, specifically committed, monogamous homosexual relationships. Thus, the assumption that all gay relationships are sinful goes beyond scripture. There's a discrepancy, and I think people even realize this and that's why they say it's God saying this and not me. Regardless, love is the ultimately fulfillment and purpose of God's commandments according to Paul and Jesus himself. If you take a look at every sin, they're all inherently unloving acts: adultery, greed, murder, theft, etc. We could do this with every single one of God's commandments that applies to our interactions or relationships with other people. How can you do this with two equally loving, selflessness, etc. relationships? You cannot rule one of them sinful just based of gender because it completely contradicts this rule Paul gives here, Jesus says in the gospels - a rule that apply to every commandments.
Here's another way of explaining that. Suppose my friend James meets and falls in love with a person named Sam. They spend years getting to know each other, and get close to each other and Christ. They decide to promise to be together for the rest of their lives in marriage. So James comes to me about it, someone who condemns all homosexual relationships, I say "That's immoral! You and Sam are doing a sinful thing before God!" James replies, "Sam is short for Samantha". Suddenly, my opinion changes to "That's wonderful, the best to you! Blessings on your marriage!" The only thing that changed is that in my mind, Sam went from male to female. That one thing, changed the relationship from wrong and disgusting to holy and beautiful - even though literally nothing else changed about anyone's motivations. That doesn't seem to fit into the notion that love is the point and purpose of the law.
I'm not saying that there's exception to sin or that God's getting soft, but that there's ultimately a underlying principle. and rule and a purpose behind all of them. I personally believe that the principles and purposes actually hold us to a higher standard, and that God and Jesus are more interesting in them as well. It so happens to be that it's plainly laid out by both Jesus and Paul the underlying principle to all of the law is "Love your neighbor."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Fish Catcher Jim

Radically Saved
Feb 19, 2015
562
490
SW MI for now
✟27,083.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here's how I became liberal...

I grew up in a very conservative, Republican household. I first voted in 2010, and voted for Rick Perry, because Christians are Republican, or at least, conservative. I couldn't fathom how a Christian could be a liberal because they supported gays, abortion, and illegal immigrants. Just to give you an idea on just how conservative I was in high school, I asked my counselor to move me to a different Speech class solely because my teacher was gay. Anyway, when I graduated high school, also in 2010, I went to a Christian university that was full of other Christians like myself. During my freshman year, I heard a speaker in chapel one day say a quote I'll never forget "Christians who are Republicans can't fathom how you can be a Christian and Democrat, and on the other hand Christians who are Democrats can't fathom how you can be Christian and Republican." That was my first expose to the mere idea that someone can be a Christian and Democrat. Also, for reasons that I'm not 100% about, I slowly became more libertarian. I think my reasoning was "As a conservative, if I wanted the government to be small, why should they enforce our morality so much?"

I spent most of my time as a sophomore as a libertarian. I was having a conversation with a friend one day, who was talking about how he was a Christian and libertarian to someone else, and mentioned how while he did believe gay marriage was a sin, he didn't think it was the government's job to enforce who two consenting adults sleep with. I realized in that moment that only made sense in my libertarian mindset. It was also during this time that I took, like every other sophomore at my school, "Old Testament Survey." Growing up, I was taught the Israelites sinned against God, but never told why and so I assumed it was things like violence, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. However, when I actually read and studied the prophets, I realized their chief sin was, at best, ignoring the poor and needy, at worst, downright exploiting them. Those others were still there, but that didn't seem to be focus of God. This God actually fit with Jesus, and I realized the true scandal of the gospels isn't just that Jesus is God, but that God is like Jesus.

Over my years as an upperclassmen, I reflected on my views and realized that if I claimed follow Jesus, I couldn't not support thing like universal healthcare, welfare, livable wages, affordable education, etc. Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality* or even abortion**, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity. There were some definite wrong things, like my parents teaching me that all homeless people were bums looking to rob you. That's not every detail of the story, but that is basically how I became a liberal Christian.

Here's more about how I interpret scripture on the more hot-button social issues.
*
Romans 1:26-27 - It's really about idolatry, and Paul is using Roman fertility cults as an example of humanity's fallen nature, where both heterosexual and homosexual sex rites occurred frequently. If you read the passage, homosexuality is not listed with the rest of sins at the end of the passage, but clearly related to those as he says "therefore" and "because of this." He's using a very specific (and very familiar in that day) example of it as the unnaturalness of turning from God in such a way where both Jews and Gentiles (a big reason for his writing of Romans was to reconcile the Jews and Gentiles in the church in Rome) can say "Yes, How immoral and disgusting!". Don't get me wrong, he clearly has nothing positive to say about it in this passage, at most he does call it a sin, and at the very least "shameful". It's also worth noting he uses the same word to describe homosexuality in this passage as he does men with long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, a passage we consider to be culturally applied.

1 Corinthians 6:9/1 Tim 1:10 - The only other mentions to homosexuality in the New Testament, besides in Jude, which is a misunderstanding/mistranslations of what actually happened in Sodom, but I'll touch on that in a second. In these passages, Paul mentions the "arsenokoitai", a sinful group. The thing is that we really don't know what the word actually means, which is why it has so many different translations. We don't know what it means partially because of how rare is it used in ancient writings. Anyway, he word, arsenokoitai, is a compound word in Greek that makes references to "male" and "bed", those same words appear in the Greek translation of the Leviticus passage. However, compound words in Greek work different than ours, for example "Cyclops" literally means "round eye". From what we do know, I think it's fairly safe to assume Paul was referencing some kind of homosexual behavior. The problem is that we really have no idea what kind of homosexual behavior, again we really don't know what the words means. I'd say it's likely talking about the practice of married men who would have sex with male youths on the side, a practice frowned upon by many Greeks even though it was publicly practiced. This would also explain why it's not listed with adultery, as according to Greek thought, a side-boy wasn't adultery, and why the "malakoi" (which many scholars think are referencing the young men in these relationships) is mentioned.

Leviticus 18-20 - The beginning of this section of rules in verses 1-4, God is saying he wants to keep the Israelites pure and separate from the cultures surrounding them. This is why people usually list the other things in this passage we look past today, such as getting tattoos, shaving, wearing mixed clothing, or having sex during a woman's period. There's less quoted ones about sacrificing children to Molech (18:21) and eating fruit too quickly from a tree (19:23). Outside of the context of keeping the Israelites separate, it's a very strange collection of rules.

Sodom - Ezekiel says what the sin of Sodom and Gomorra was "This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it" (EZK 16:49-50). You can definitely argue that "abominable things before me" is talking about their homosexuality, but you could also argue that he's referring to the rape (it's safe to assume they did it previously). It's a very big stretch to assume that all same-sex relationships are equal to that, especially when you look at what the mob is actually doing in this story. They've formed an angry mob and are threatening to gang rape the visitors, which isn't the only time it happens in scripture, it also happens in Judges 19. Does these mean that during Bible times, cities were full of gay people looking to rape others? No, it is a threat of humiliating violence, a way of saying "We are in charge around here and you are not welcome" in the worst imaginable way. If you were in prison and a group of large men threatened to rape you. You wouldn't assume they were gay men hitting on you, you would assume they were threatening you with the worst possible punishment. It's the same thing happening in this story and in Judges 19. Although these stories seem strange to us, they would have been readily understood by the earlier readers.


The problem with the view that homosexual relationships are sinful goes much deeper than how we interpret scripture. It says that not only are those referred to in scripture, as there is no reference to committed, monogamous homosexual relationships in scripture, but all gay relationships are sinful.

For example, you know two couples: one gay and one straight. These couples are both Christian, equally devoted to Christ. Both have made a commitment to stay together and be faithful to each other the rest of their lives. They both have a certain sense of balance. In every respect, they are completely identical with the only exception of one being gay and the other straight. We're supposed to celebrate one couple and condemn the other?

Here's another way of explaining that. Suppose my friend James meets and falls in love with a person named Sam. They spend years getting to know each other, and get closer to each other and Christ. They decide to promise to be together for the rest of their lives in marriage. So James comes to me about it, someone who condemns all homosexual relationships, I say "That's immoral! You and Sam are doing a sinful thing before God!" James replies, "Sam is short for Samantha". Suddenly, my opinion changes to "That's wonderful, the best to you! Blessings on your marriage!" The only thing that changed is that in my mind, Sam went from male to female. That one thing, changed the relationship from wrong and disgusting to holy and beautiful - even though literally nothing else changed about anyone's motivations. To me, that doesn't seem to be quite right. There's a discrepancy, and I think people even realize this and that's why they say it's God saying this and not me.

That view is based on the idea that we need to follow Biblical commands regardless of how much sense it makes to us, which people usually cite "Trust in the Lord and lean not on your own understanding" or "the heart is deceitful above all things" to support. There's nothing wrong with that, except, as I just showed you, the texts that condemn homosexuality, can, and have been explained other ways. Furthermore, they mention nothing about committed, monogamous relationships. There's also a big problem with interpreting scripture that way. For example, Romans 13:1, the passage about governmental authorities. We would have to claim that American revolutionaries, civil rights movements, the Nazi resisters, etc. were sinning. While there are those that claim that, the majority of us just know that can't be right. After all, God wrote his law on the hearts of men, and we just inherintely know what the Nazis did was evil. Furthermore, it also shows that no one consistently applies scripture in a literal, word-for-word direct application. Anyone is honest will admit some passages either 1) Don't apply at all today, 2) Still apply, but not what they mean on the surface, 3) Are overruled by other passages or themes. The third of which is where I believe God takes no issue with committed, loving, selfless homosexual relationships.

Romans 13:8-10 "Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law." This should sound like something Jesus said, because Paul is merely rewording/expanding what Jesus is said are the greatest commandments, and is a different wording of what the writer of 1 John is saying in chapter 4 of his. Paul is saying every commandment can be summed up to the rule of "love your neighbor". If we lived our lives in such a way with a truly loving spirit, in loving ways, we would automatically fulfill every one of God's laws. Jesus says the same in gospels, but with Jewish phrasing.

Adultery, murder, greed, etc. are all inherently unloving acts. If you loved your spouse, you don't cheat on someone. If you loved the poor, you wouldn't act greedy towards them. If you love someone, you don't covet what they have you, you are happy good things have come their way. We could literally do this for everyone single one of God's commands. How can you do this with two equally loving, selflessness, etc relationships? You cannot rule one of them sinful just based of gender because it completely contradicts this rule Paul gives here, Jesus says in the gospels - a rule that apply to every commandment.

This isn't just a random passage, Paul spends almost the entire book of Romans building an argument about law, grace, and sin. He uses the word 74 times, this is last time. It's the conclusion of his argument, one that goes back all of the way to the Old Testament "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." A passage, that Jesus references about the principle of the law and how we're supposed to read scriptures.

Jesus and Paul aren't saying we're allowed to break rules sometimes, nor that God is getting soft on sin. God, like us, also knows that mere rules and regulations are not always sufficient to actually define sin, the specifics make a huge difference. For example, killing is a sin and terrible crime, but there are situations, such as self-defense or even accidents, which we do not hold someone accountable, and neither does God, which is why he provided the "Cities of Refuge". As Jesus made clear in his incidents with Pharisees, God judges our actions on a case-by-case basis, taking into account our heart, motives, and specifics of the the situation, not just mindlessly applying a set of rigid rules.

Every one of God's laws has a purpose, and we can see in scripture, even outside of Jesus, when that purpose was no longer needed. Just compare Duet. 23:1-3 to Isaiah 56:3-8, Eunichs are excluded to demonstrate God's holiness, but later that command is no longer necessary to accomplish that purpose and becomes obsolete. Looking at the reasons behind each command rather than just the letter is exactly what Jesus' does with the Sabbath. It explains why God's standards seem to change even though God Himself does not change, and why Christians are getting inked, they don't serve the same purpose anymore as when they were first commanded. Jesus even takes us a bit further to point out the principle of the law actually holds us to a higher standard. That's the entire purpose of the Sermon on the Mount, and over and over again in the rest of the gospels Jesus reiterates that God is more interested in the underlying principles than rules themselves. To suggest a command that doesn't fit into God's underlying principle, love, is not only inconsistent, but unbiblical.

We have a great example left for us by the early church, circumcision. The only scriptures the church had were the Jewish scriptures which commanded circumcision as a sign of allegiance to God, and there was probably less wriggle room in scripture than this. The issue was over whether or not gentiles could become Christians without first being circumcised. The Gentiles in question knew two things: they trusted Jesus and didn't want to take a knife to their manhood. Even Peter and Paul had a public confrontation about this (Gal 2:11-14). The churches ultimate decisions was is that it's following the rules for the sake of the rules.

There's always going to be great arguments on both sides, and that's where I think we need to look at the fruit of the relationship. Sin always shows itself, it promises good things, but never delivers. We see sin as good because we think that's what we'll get out of it, but we never do. If all same-sex relationships were sinful, we wouldn't need theological arguments to tell us that. The bad fruit from those relationships would be readily and clearly apparent. There are those in the gay community that do produce bad fruit, just like there are some heterosexuals that produce bad fruit from their heterosexual relationships and actions. If you ever met Christ-centered gay couple, you'll notice they are identical to our straight counterparts with the exception of one partner's sex. They are really proof that God can and does bless same-sex relationships. After all, bad trees cannot produce good fruit.
None of the passages in scripture about homosexuality are likely talking about modern homosexual relationship, specifically committed, monogamous homosexual relationships. Thus, the assumption that all gay relationships are sinful goes beyond scripture. There's a discrepancy, and I think people even realize this and that's why they say it's God saying this and not me. Regardless, love is the ultimately fulfillment and purpose of God's commandments according to Paul and Jesus himself. If you take a look at every sin, they're all inherently unloving acts: adultery, greed, murder, theft, etc. We could do this with every single one of God's commandments that applies to our interactions or relationships with other people. How can you do this with two equally loving, selflessness, etc. relationships? You cannot rule one of them sinful just based of gender because it completely contradicts this rule Paul gives here, Jesus says in the gospels - a rule that apply to every commandments.
Here's another way of explaining that. Suppose my friend James meets and falls in love with a person named Sam. They spend years getting to know each other, and get close to each other and Christ. They decide to promise to be together for the rest of their lives in marriage. So James comes to me about it, someone who condemns all homosexual relationships, I say "That's immoral! You and Sam are doing a sinful thing before God!" James replies, "Sam is short for Samantha". Suddenly, my opinion changes to "That's wonderful, the best to you! Blessings on your marriage!" The only thing that changed is that in my mind, Sam went from male to female. That one thing, changed the relationship from wrong and disgusting to holy and beautiful - even though literally nothing else changed about anyone's motivations. That doesn't seem to fit into the notion that love is the point and purpose of the law.
I'm not saying that there's exception to sin or that God's getting soft, but that there's ultimately a underlying principle. and rule and a purpose behind all of them. I personally believe that the principles and purposes actually hold us to a higher standard, and that God and Jesus are more interesting in them as well. It so happens to be that it's plainly laid out by both Jesus and Paul the underlying principle to all of the law is "Love your neighbor."

**
First of all, I think that the passages about God knitting in the womb (Psalm) and knowing us before we are born (Jeremiah) are I think two of the most misquoted passages in all of scripture, and utlimately more about praising God and the miracle of human life than making some kind of scientific statement about prenatal development. There seems to be a connection in scripture between breath and life, and breath and spirit. I believe that humans do not have souls/spirits until they take their first breath, and lose their spirit when they die at their last breath. I am not sure when "life begins", but I think scripture is less concerned about when life, whatever that actually means begins, and more concerned about what we do with having the spirit and what we do with that life.
A baby has zero chance of surviving until about 20 weeks into pregnancy, and are only given a 50% chance at 23 weeks. This is even with all of our intensive medical care, in fact, we haven't really improved our ability to do so in over a decade even though medical technology is still advancing. This causes me to be hesitant to say that an unborn child that is completely biologically dependent on it's mother for survival (I'm not talking about how babies need to be fed and such, the mother does not have to do that) has the same rights as a born child. Imagine that you woke up to find yourself medically attached to someone else without your consent, and you must remain attached to them for nine months until they can heal, otherwise they will die. Sure, that person has the right to live, but does their right to live supersede your right to bodily independence? We could all probably agree on what the most Christian choice in the matter would be, but that's what pro-choice is: A woman has the right to choose what to do with her body, and that right supersedes her unborn child's right to life because of the unborn child is completely dependent on her body for survival.
That, and the reason the pro-choice people actually seem to have the best way to reduce the number of abortions (such as easier and more affordable contraceptive, better sex education, and women's healthcare, etc) is why I'm pro-choice. I used to be pro-life, and thought abortion was murder. I still think abortion is wrong, and I wish that women wouldn't make the choice. However, it's not my decision to make for them."

Thank you @TX_Matt for taking the time to help me grasp this. It's more political then Religious beliefs if I understood correctly.

That I can understand and I think you can find watered down preaching and teaching of His Word in any circles.

I thought it was more directed to the Word and making things less effective by stripping things away and giving a more relaxed point of view.
Thank you again
Blessings
FCJ
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,487
10,856
New Jersey
✟1,338,892.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Greetings,
I mean no disrespect and I am just asking because to me it sounds like liberal Christian is an oxymoron

open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

How can you justify this type of thinking against God's Word?

Again I am just asking because I don't get it as all.
Blessings
FCJ
I'm liberal because I believe in following evidence. I guess it's my scientific background.
* Large parts of the OT can only be accepted as true by ignoring obvious scientific and historical evidence
* Scripture contains many voices that don't say exactly the same thing. Conservative theology tends to emphasize the ones that are furtherest from what Jesus himself taught, even reading the NT "literally."
* Traditional, so-called literal, interpretation is actually pretty selective. It tends to ignore the point that the author was making and use their words for other purposes.

When I look at theological questions I normally start with a careful study of what Jesus actually said, and then secondarily at what Paul said. The answers are often different from traditional ones. This is even true on key issues such as how we're saved.

Example: there's currently a discussion on what sends us to hell. Jesus actually talks about this a fair amount. I took the time to check out every reference in Matthew (because Mark and Luke say the same thing, but they're a subset of Matthew's references.) Here's the conclusion: What sends a person to hell...?. It doesn't seem to agree with what most of the other postings are saying. I did a similar review of both Jesus and Paul to see what they said about how to be saved: Salvation?. This doesn't quite agree with traditional answers from either Protestant or Catholic theology.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,487
10,856
New Jersey
✟1,338,892.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
There's this strange idea, which your response seems to support, that being liberal means taking Jesus lightly. In fact liberal Christianity tends to have higher ethical standards than conservative Christianity. It's just that our standards are based on what Jesus and the prophets actually taught. TX_Matt's posting isn't really about politics. It's about Biblical ethics. I agree with what he found as he actually looked at the Bible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SnowyMacie
Upvote 0

Fish Catcher Jim

Radically Saved
Feb 19, 2015
562
490
SW MI for now
✟27,083.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There's this strange idea, which your response seems to support, that being liberal means taking Jesus lightly. In fact liberal Christianity tends to have higher ethical standards than conservative Christianity. It's just that our standards are based on what Jesus and the prophets actually taught. TX_Matt's posting isn't really about politics. It's about Biblical ethics. I agree with what he found as he actually looked at the Bible.

Actually I said I thought as in that is why I asked.
(I thought it was more directed to the Word and making things less effective by stripping things away and giving a more relaxed point of view.)

n fact liberal Christianity tends to have higher ethical standards than conservative Christianity.

For me an my household we choose to serve the Lord.
Labels are man made and any one who desires to can have higher ethical standards
By simply seeking God and His truth.

Thank you sir for your reply
Blessings
FCJ
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I think you're asking about people who are theologically conservative and politically liberal; and, conversely, theologically liberal and politically conservative.

In the first category, Jim Wallis (of Sojourners) and Ron Sider (of Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger) are two examples of theologically conservative Evangelical Christians who support public policies that care for the poor, for racial minorities, and for the environment.

In the second category, the stereotypical Republican of my childhood years (before the emergence of the Moral Majority -- I'm old!) was a wealthy, Ivy-League-educated businessman who belonged to a mainline Presbyterian, Congregational, or Episcopal church and favored public policies that protected the interests of business. Some of the people in this population would qualify as theologically liberal and politically conservative.

(Note, of course, that "politically liberal" is not a monolithic category. One's positions on abortion, and pacifism, and racial issues, and the environment, and poverty, and tariffs on imports can all be chosen independently of each other. People like Sider, whose views do not completely line up with either political party, can be difficult to classify.)
this doesn't show me the difference that you think I am missing.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Here's how I became liberal...

I grew up in a very conservative, Republican household. I first voted in 2010, and voted for Rick Perry, because Christians are Republican, or at least, conservative. I couldn't fathom how a Christian could be a liberal because they supported gays, abortion, and illegal immigrants. Just to give you an idea on just how conservative I was in high school, I asked my counselor to move me to a different Speech class solely because my teacher was gay. Anyway, when I graduated high school, also in 2010, I went to a Christian university that was full of other Christians like myself. During my freshman year, I heard a speaker in chapel one day say a quote I'll never forget "Christians who are Republicans can't fathom how you can be a Christian and Democrat, and on the other hand Christians who are Democrats can't fathom how you can be Christian and Republican." That was my first expose to the mere idea that someone can be a Christian and Democrat. Also, for reasons that I'm not 100% about, I slowly became more libertarian. I think my reasoning was "As a conservative, if I wanted the government to be small, why should they enforce our morality so much?"

I spent most of my time as a sophomore as a libertarian. I was having a conversation with a friend one day, who was talking about how he was a Christian and libertarian to someone else, and mentioned how while he did believe gay marriage was a sin, he didn't think it was the government's job to enforce who two consenting adults sleep with. I realized in that moment that only made sense in my libertarian mindset. It was also during this time that I took, like every other sophomore at my school, "Old Testament Survey." Growing up, I was taught the Israelites sinned against God, but never told why and so I assumed it was things like violence, sexual immorality, idolatry, etc. However, when I actually read and studied the prophets, I realized their chief sin was, at best, ignoring the poor and needy, at worst, downright exploiting them. Those others were still there, but that didn't seem to be focus of God. This God actually fit with Jesus, and I realized the true scandal of the gospels isn't just that Jesus is God, but that God is like Jesus.

Over my years as an upperclassmen, I reflected on my views and realized that if I claimed follow Jesus, I couldn't not support thing like universal healthcare, welfare, livable wages, affordable education, etc. Socially, I realized in my studies on scripture that once I dove passed the English we read, scripture is not nearly as clear on things such as homosexuality* or even abortion, for that matter. In other words, I realized that what I had been taught growing up, wasn't necessarily wrong, but a very simple and easy version of Christianity. There were some definite wrong things, like my parents teaching me that all homeless people were bums looking to rob you. That's not every detail of the story, but that is basically how I became a liberal Christian.

Here's more about how I interpret scripture on the more hot-button social issues.
*
Romans 1:26-27 - It's really about idolatry, and Paul is using Roman fertility cults as an example of humanity's fallen nature, where both heterosexual and homosexual sex rites occurred frequently. If you read the passage, homosexuality is not listed with the rest of sins at the end of the passage, but clearly related to those as he says "therefore" and "because of this." He's using a very specific (and very familiar in that day) example of it as the unnaturalness of turning from God in such a way where both Jews and Gentiles (a big reason for his writing of Romans was to reconcile the Jews and Gentiles in the church in Rome) can say "Yes, How immoral and disgusting!". Don't get me wrong, he clearly has nothing positive to say about it in this passage, at most he does call it a sin, and at the very least "shameful". It's also worth noting he uses the same word to describe homosexuality in this passage as he does men with long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, a passage we consider to be culturally applied.

1 Corinthians 6:9/1 Tim 1:10 - The only other mentions to homosexuality in the New Testament, besides in Jude, which is a misunderstanding/mistranslations of what actually happened in Sodom, but I'll touch on that in a second. In these passages, Paul mentions the "arsenokoitai", a sinful group. The thing is that we really don't know what the word actually means, which is why it has so many different translations. We don't know what it means partially because of how rare is it used in ancient writings. Anyway, he word, arsenokoitai, is a compound word in Greek that makes references to "male" and "bed", those same words appear in the Greek translation of the Leviticus passage. However, compound words in Greek work different than ours, for example "Cyclops" literally means "round eye". From what we do know, I think it's fairly safe to assume Paul was referencing some kind of homosexual behavior. The problem is that we really have no idea what kind of homosexual behavior, again we really don't know what the words means. I'd say it's likely talking about the practice of married men who would have sex with male youths on the side, a practice frowned upon by many Greeks even though it was publicly practiced. This would also explain why it's not listed with adultery, as according to Greek thought, a side-boy wasn't adultery, and why the "malakoi" (which many scholars think are referencing the young men in these relationships) is mentioned.

Leviticus 18-20 - The beginning of this section of rules in verses 1-4, God is saying he wants to keep the Israelites pure and separate from the cultures surrounding them. This is why people usually list the other things in this passage we look past today, such as getting tattoos, shaving, wearing mixed clothing, or having sex during a woman's period. There's less quoted ones about sacrificing children to Molech (18:21) and eating fruit too quickly from a tree (19:23). Outside of the context of keeping the Israelites separate, it's a very strange collection of rules.

Sodom - Ezekiel says what the sin of Sodom and Gomorra was "This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it" (EZK 16:49-50). You can definitely argue that "abominable things before me" is talking about their homosexuality, but you could also argue that he's referring to the rape (it's safe to assume they did it previously). It's a very big stretch to assume that all same-sex relationships are equal to that, especially when you look at what the mob is actually doing in this story. They've formed an angry mob and are threatening to gang rape the visitors, which isn't the only time it happens in scripture, it also happens in Judges 19. Does these mean that during Bible times, cities were full of gay people looking to rape others? No, it is a threat of humiliating violence, a way of saying "We are in charge around here and you are not welcome" in the worst imaginable way. If you were in prison and a group of large men threatened to rape you. You wouldn't assume they were gay men hitting on you, you would assume they were threatening you with the worst possible punishment. It's the same thing happening in this story and in Judges 19. Although these stories seem strange to us, they would have been readily understood by the earlier readers.


The problem with the view that homosexual relationships are sinful goes much deeper than how we interpret scripture. It says that not only are those referred to in scripture, as there is no reference to committed, monogamous homosexual relationships in scripture, but all gay relationships are sinful.

For example, you know two couples: one gay and one straight. These couples are both Christian, equally devoted to Christ. Both have made a commitment to stay together and be faithful to each other the rest of their lives. They both have a certain sense of balance. In every respect, they are completely identical with the only exception of one being gay and the other straight. We're supposed to celebrate one couple and condemn the other?

Here's another way of explaining that. Suppose my friend James meets and falls in love with a person named Sam. They spend years getting to know each other, and get closer to each other and Christ. They decide to promise to be together for the rest of their lives in marriage. So James comes to me about it, someone who condemns all homosexual relationships, I say "That's immoral! You and Sam are doing a sinful thing before God!" James replies, "Sam is short for Samantha". Suddenly, my opinion changes to "That's wonderful, the best to you! Blessings on your marriage!" The only thing that changed is that in my mind, Sam went from male to female. That one thing, changed the relationship from wrong and disgusting to holy and beautiful - even though literally nothing else changed about anyone's motivations. To me, that doesn't seem to be quite right. There's a discrepancy, and I think people even realize this and that's why they say it's God saying this and not me.

That view is based on the idea that we need to follow Biblical commands regardless of how much sense it makes to us, which people usually cite "Trust in the Lord and lean not on your own understanding" or "the heart is deceitful above all things" to support. There's nothing wrong with that, except, as I just showed you, the texts that condemn homosexuality, can, and have been explained other ways. Furthermore, they mention nothing about committed, monogamous relationships. There's also a big problem with interpreting scripture that way. For example, Romans 13:1, the passage about governmental authorities. We would have to claim that American revolutionaries, civil rights movements, the Nazi resisters, etc. were sinning. While there are those that claim that, the majority of us just know that can't be right. After all, God wrote his law on the hearts of men, and we just inherintely know what the Nazis did was evil. Furthermore, it also shows that no one consistently applies scripture in a literal, word-for-word direct application. Anyone is honest will admit some passages either 1) Don't apply at all today, 2) Still apply, but not what they mean on the surface, 3) Are overruled by other passages or themes. The third of which is where I believe God takes no issue with committed, loving, selfless homosexual relationships.

Romans 13:8-10 "Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law." This should sound like something Jesus said, because Paul is merely rewording/expanding what Jesus is said are the greatest commandments, and is a different wording of what the writer of 1 John is saying in chapter 4 of his. Paul is saying every commandment can be summed up to the rule of "love your neighbor". If we lived our lives in such a way with a truly loving spirit, in loving ways, we would automatically fulfill every one of God's laws. Jesus says the same in gospels, but with Jewish phrasing.

Adultery, murder, greed, etc. are all inherently unloving acts. If you loved your spouse, you don't cheat on someone. If you loved the poor, you wouldn't act greedy towards them. If you love someone, you don't covet what they have you, you are happy good things have come their way. We could literally do this for everyone single one of God's commands. How can you do this with two equally loving, selflessness, etc relationships? You cannot rule one of them sinful just based of gender because it completely contradicts this rule Paul gives here, Jesus says in the gospels - a rule that apply to every commandment.

This isn't just a random passage, Paul spends almost the entire book of Romans building an argument about law, grace, and sin. He uses the word 74 times, this is last time. It's the conclusion of his argument, one that goes back all of the way to the Old Testament "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." A passage, that Jesus references about the principle of the law and how we're supposed to read scriptures.

Jesus and Paul aren't saying we're allowed to break rules sometimes, nor that God is getting soft on sin. God, like us, also knows that mere rules and regulations are not always sufficient to actually define sin, the specifics make a huge difference. For example, killing is a sin and terrible crime, but there are situations, such as self-defense or even accidents, which we do not hold someone accountable, and neither does God, which is why he provided the "Cities of Refuge". As Jesus made clear in his incidents with Pharisees, God judges our actions on a case-by-case basis, taking into account our heart, motives, and specifics of the the situation, not just mindlessly applying a set of rigid rules.

Every one of God's laws has a purpose, and we can see in scripture, even outside of Jesus, when that purpose was no longer needed. Just compare Duet. 23:1-3 to Isaiah 56:3-8, Eunichs are excluded to demonstrate God's holiness, but later that command is no longer necessary to accomplish that purpose and becomes obsolete. Looking at the reasons behind each command rather than just the letter is exactly what Jesus' does with the Sabbath. It explains why God's standards seem to change even though God Himself does not change, and why Christians are getting inked, they don't serve the same purpose anymore as when they were first commanded. Jesus even takes us a bit further to point out the principle of the law actually holds us to a higher standard. That's the entire purpose of the Sermon on the Mount, and over and over again in the rest of the gospels Jesus reiterates that God is more interested in the underlying principles than rules themselves. To suggest a command that doesn't fit into God's underlying principle, love, is not only inconsistent, but unbiblical.

We have a great example left for us by the early church, circumcision. The only scriptures the church had were the Jewish scriptures which commanded circumcision as a sign of allegiance to God, and there was probably less wriggle room in scripture than this. The issue was over whether or not gentiles could become Christians without first being circumcised. The Gentiles in question knew two things: they trusted Jesus and didn't want to take a knife to their manhood. Even Peter and Paul had a public confrontation about this (Gal 2:11-14). The churches ultimate decisions was is that it's following the rules for the sake of the rules.

There's always going to be great arguments on both sides, and that's where I think we need to look at the fruit of the relationship. Sin always shows itself, it promises good things, but never delivers. We see sin as good because we think that's what we'll get out of it, but we never do. If all same-sex relationships were sinful, we wouldn't need theological arguments to tell us that. The bad fruit from those relationships would be readily and clearly apparent. There are those in the gay community that do produce bad fruit, just like there are some heterosexuals that produce bad fruit from their heterosexual relationships and actions. If you ever met Christ-centered gay couple, you'll notice they are identical to our straight counterparts with the exception of one partner's sex. They are really proof that God can and does bless same-sex relationships. After all, bad trees cannot produce good fruit.
None of the passages in scripture about homosexuality are likely talking about modern homosexual relationship, specifically committed, monogamous homosexual relationships. Thus, the assumption that all gay relationships are sinful goes beyond scripture. There's a discrepancy, and I think people even realize this and that's why they say it's God saying this and not me. Regardless, love is the ultimately fulfillment and purpose of God's commandments according to Paul and Jesus himself. If you take a look at every sin, they're all inherently unloving acts: adultery, greed, murder, theft, etc. We could do this with every single one of God's commandments that applies to our interactions or relationships with other people. How can you do this with two equally loving, selflessness, etc. relationships? You cannot rule one of them sinful just based of gender because it completely contradicts this rule Paul gives here, Jesus says in the gospels - a rule that apply to every commandments.
Here's another way of explaining that. Suppose my friend James meets and falls in love with a person named Sam. They spend years getting to know each other, and get close to each other and Christ. They decide to promise to be together for the rest of their lives in marriage. So James comes to me about it, someone who condemns all homosexual relationships, I say "That's immoral! You and Sam are doing a sinful thing before God!" James replies, "Sam is short for Samantha". Suddenly, my opinion changes to "That's wonderful, the best to you! Blessings on your marriage!" The only thing that changed is that in my mind, Sam went from male to female. That one thing, changed the relationship from wrong and disgusting to holy and beautiful - even though literally nothing else changed about anyone's motivations. That doesn't seem to fit into the notion that love is the point and purpose of the law.
I'm not saying that there's exception to sin or that God's getting soft, but that there's ultimately a underlying principle. and rule and a purpose behind all of them. I personally believe that the principles and purposes actually hold us to a higher standard, and that God and Jesus are more interesting in them as well. It so happens to be that it's plainly laid out by both Jesus and Paul the underlying principle to all of the law is "Love your neighbor."
libertarian is different than liberal I get conservative and libertarian what I don't get is liberal
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There's this strange idea, which your response seems to support, that being liberal means taking Jesus lightly. In fact liberal Christianity tends to have higher ethical standards than conservative Christianity. It's just that our standards are based on what Jesus and the prophets actually taught. TX_Matt's posting isn't really about politics. It's about Biblical ethics. I agree with what he found as he actually looked at the Bible.
what I don't get is forcing others to have the same "ethics" since scripture tells us to give without compulsion, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Arcangl86

Newbie
Dec 29, 2013
12,104
8,351
✟411,953.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
what I don't get is forcing others to have the same "ethics" since scripture tells us to give without compulsion, etc.
First off, you are again conflating being a liberal Christian and being a political liberal. It's like saying you can't be a conservative without being a conservative Christian.

In addition we are not forcing people to have the same ethics. You are making a distinction the bible doesn't make. You are separating personal action and ethics from government action and ethics. The New Testament was written for a persecuted minority under an authoritarian government. It didn't address questions of just government because the ones it were written for had no political power. We now live in a time where we have the concept of popular sovereignty, which a concept that the people in the Roman Empire wouldn't understand. In our society the government is ruled by representatives of the people. Part of the role of government is determining the needs of those governed and how to spend tax revenues. Liberal Christians as a group hold to social ethic that tends to focus on caring for the needing as opposed to personal purity. As such it makes sense that many of them will determine that the proper role of government is to care for the needy.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,487
10,856
New Jersey
✟1,338,892.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
what I don't get is forcing others to have the same "ethics" since scripture tells us to give without compulsion, etc.
I agree with the post above that Jesus was in a situation where he couldn't affect government, just individuals. But the same was not true of the prophets. When they condemned Israel for not caring for poor, widows and orphans, it was the nation that was being judged.

Second, I don't think providing certain things like health care can be done by private charity. Are our churches prepared to replace Medicare by private charity? I'd be interested to see examples of churches that did. Many of our hospitals were originally started by churches. But currently I'm not aware of any hospitals funded primary by churches without charging patients or insurance. Are you?

Are there evangelical groups currently preparing a campaign to get voluntary contributions to take over loss of taxpayer funded medical care?

There are states that turned down the extra Medicare support under Obamacare. Did churches take over the load?

It appears that in the early church, congregations really did take over the responsibility for supporting widows. I'm not aware of explicit statements, but I'd hope that also applied to disabled people. But at that time, the culture as a whole didn't feel any obligation to do that. While there wasn't a legal obligation, enough Christians considered it a moral obligation to make it work. Today, in the US we accept an obligation to provide basic social services for the whole population. I would think Christians would consider that a good thing.

Why is this any different from national defense or anything else that we do on a governmental basis? Why not put our taxes into health care and take up collections for the military? The prophets' priority was the reverse: they considered it the obligation of the nation to support poor and helpless, but thought they should trust in God for protection against enemies.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
First off, you are again conflating being a liberal Christian and being a political liberal. It's like saying you can't be a conservative without being a conservative Christian.
I asked for examples not names of the differences so I could see what you think the difference is...all I got was name of people which didn't help at all. Then another poster said the same things I think about it and so I am back to square one of not getting it. Now, I am open to being taught, even excited to understand since understanding is my thing but so far no one has shown me where I don't understand the concept only the reasoning for.
In addition we are not forcing people to have the same ethics. You are making a distinction the bible doesn't make. You are separating personal action and ethics from government action and ethics. The New Testament was written for a persecuted minority under an authoritarian government. It didn't address questions of just government because the ones it were written for had no political power. We now live in a time where we have the concept of popular sovereignty, which a concept that the people in the Roman Empire wouldn't understand. In our society the government is ruled by representatives of the people. Part of the role of government is determining the needs of those governed and how to spend tax revenues. Liberal Christians as a group hold to social ethic that tends to focus on caring for the needing as opposed to personal purity. As such it makes sense that many of them will determine that the proper role of government is to care for the needy.
Now, 1. you go back to the role of government in the liberal christian view, the same understanding I bring to the table but you tell me is wrong....2. I know tons, in fact, most but not all of the people I fellowship regularly with believe whole heartedly in caring for the poor, etc. as you talk about here but are still conservative or libertarian, very few, in fact off the top of my head I can't recall as single one of those friends that is liberal that believes in caring for the poor as much as the others. In fact, most of the liberals I know believe that it is the governments job to care for the poor which is why they are liberal and not conservative or libertarian. So we are back to my quandary...why would a person be liberal based on biblical teaching that includes but is not limited to giving without compulsion? I can't make sense out of that mindset...please explain it to me so I can understand and consider it in my own quests to be like Christ.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I agree with the post above that Jesus was in a situation where he couldn't affect government, just individuals. But the same was not true of the prophets. When they condemned Israel for not caring for poor, widows and orphans, it was the nation that was being judged.
some of this I am just going to hit and miss because I don't want to risk getting off topic no other reason so please don't see it as an avoidance of anything but violation of forum rules.

I get this part of the argument, I have some problems with it but I get it...this part isn't my problem in understanding. My problem in understanding is the compulsion aspect of making it a governmental thing. In fact, Christ did not teach trying to take over the government or change it in anyway, rather He taught to live by their rules while living out Christ in the community. I don't see how that teaching has changed just because we now have more voice then they did back them. But as I said, I get this part of the argument even though i disagree with it as per our decisions.
Second, I don't think providing certain things like health care can be done by private charity. Are our churches prepared to replace Medicare by private charity? I'd be interested to see examples of churches that did. Many of our hospitals were originally started by churches. But currently I'm not aware of any hospitals funded primary by churches without charging patients or insurance. Are you?
there is a growing movement in which there is a "group" ins. plan for believers which basically is everyone in the program pitching in to help another when they have medical costs. the concept comes out of scripture where the church was there to help one another. Which is totally consistent with scripture so it makes sense to me to do it this way.
Are there evangelical groups currently preparing a campaign to get voluntary contributions to take over loss of taxpayer funded medical care?
that is kind of how it works. the contributions as I understood from our pastor who is in one such group is a fee to be part of the group, kind of like tithing would be if it was local and not state or nation wide and then any premium you would normally pay would go to the person or people in need. Like I said, as he describes it is more similar to the tithe than to a tax or mandatory contribution which again, I get because it is straight out of scripture.
There are states that turned down the extra Medicare support under Obamacare. Did churches take over the load?
apparently some did and some did not but that isn't the question I am asking...why should we violate scripture just because the church dropped the ball? Shouldn't we instead focus on the church and getting her to understand the teachings of Christ and her role in the world?
It appears that in the early church, congregations really did take over the responsibility for supporting widows. I'm not aware of explicit statements, but I'd hope that also applied to disabled people. But at that time, the culture as a whole didn't feel any obligation to do that. While there wasn't a legal obligation, enough Christians considered it a moral obligation to make it work. Today, in the US we accept an obligation to provide basic social services for the whole population. I would think Christians would consider that a good thing.
Why when it is not the teaching of Christ would we force those not in the church to contribute? This is what I don't get....on top of that, in scripture even those that did not want to participate were exempt. Consider the story of ananias and sapphira...they could give however much they wanted to give, the problem was not in giving or how much they gave but in lying to the HS about how much they were giving. Notice nothing was given out of compulsion...when we turn that into the government mandated giving you are talking about we do to things, 1. make it so the church does not need to step up to the plate and demonstrate to the world what God desires for His people to do and be and 2. we remove the willing heart that gives without compulsion...so again I ask how does the bible fit into the compulsion mindset of the liberal? I just don't get it.
Why is this any different from national defense or anything else that we do on a governmental basis? Why not put our taxes into health care and take up collections for the military? The prophets' priority was the reverse: they considered it the obligation of the nation to support poor and helpless, but thought they should trust in God for protection against enemies.
Well, that might have something to do with Jesus teaching about the sword, but again not where I am having a problem in understanding the mindset...
 
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
5,166
6,143
New Jersey
✟405,517.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Like I said, as he describes it is more similar to the tithe than to a tax or mandatory contribution which again, I get because it is straight out of scripture. apparently some did and some did not but that isn't the question I am asking...why should we violate scripture just because the church dropped the ball?
I need to challenge this last statement. You're claiming that it is a violation of Scripture for a government to tax its citizens and use the proceeds to help its citizens. What Scripture forbids governments to do this?
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I need to challenge this last statement. You're claiming that it is a violation of Scripture for a government to tax its citizens and use the proceeds to help its citizens. What Scripture forbids governments to do this?
where did I say it was a violation of scripture for a government to do anything? I said that Jesus taught to obey the government...
 
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
5,166
6,143
New Jersey
✟405,517.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
where did I say it was a violation of scripture for a government to do anything? I said that Jesus taught to obey the government...
What did you mean, then, when you said "why should we violate scripture just because the church dropped the ball?" What scripture was being violated, and in what way?
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Be more specific: In what way is caring forthe poor unscriptural? It's unscriptural when who does it, using what methods?
wow...try this again, not really sure what you are not following...scripture commands us to care for the poor...scripture tells the church to care for the poor...scripture tells the individual to care for the poor....scripture does NOT tell the government to care for the poor and when the government does care for the poor it removes the church and individuals from doing so. So, who are we as a church or an individual to care for if the government is doing it for us? Remember the command in scripture is for the church and individual to care for the poor not the government...unless of course you have a passage that says the government is to care for the poor, one I missed?

Since the above is so out of focus for what I am saying let me clarify with this...I am NOT saying the government cannot care for the poor...or that for the government to do so is unbiblical what I am saying is it is not part of the command and when we allow the government to do all the work the individual and church have nothing left to do in obedience to God.
 
Upvote 0

SnowyMacie

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
17,008
6,087
North Texas
✟125,659.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
some of this I am just going to hit and miss because I don't want to risk getting off topic no other reason so please don't see it as an avoidance of anything but violation of forum rules.

I get this part of the argument, I have some problems with it but I get it...this part isn't my problem in understanding. My problem in understanding is the compulsion aspect of making it a governmental thing. In fact, Christ did not teach trying to take over the government or change it in anyway, rather He taught to live by their rules while living out Christ in the community. I don't see how that teaching has changed just because we now have more voice then they did back them. But as I said, I get this part of the argument even though i disagree with it as per our decisions. there is a growing movement in which there is a "group" ins. plan for believers which basically is everyone in the program pitching in to help another when they have medical costs. the concept comes out of scripture where the church was there to help one another. Which is totally consistent with scripture so it makes sense to me to do it this way. that is kind of how it works. the contributions as I understood from our pastor who is in one such group is a fee to be part of the group, kind of like tithing would be if it was local and not state or nation wide and then any premium you would normally pay would go to the person or people in need. Like I said, as he describes it is more similar to the tithe than to a tax or mandatory contribution which again, I get because it is straight out of scripture. apparently some did and some did not but that isn't the question I am asking...why should we violate scripture just because the church dropped the ball? Shouldn't we instead focus on the church and getting her to understand the teachings of Christ and her role in the world? Why when it is not the teaching of Christ would we force those not in the church to contribute? This is what I don't get....on top of that, in scripture even those that did not want to participate were exempt. Consider the story of ananias and sapphira...they could give however much they wanted to give, the problem was not in giving or how much they gave but in lying to the HS about how much they were giving. Notice nothing was given out of compulsion...when we turn that into the government mandated giving you are talking about we do to things, 1. make it so the church does not need to step up to the plate and demonstrate to the world what God desires for His people to do and be and 2. we remove the willing heart that gives without compulsion...so again I ask how does the bible fit into the compulsion mindset of the liberal? I just don't get it. Well, that might have something to do with Jesus teaching about the sword, but again not where I am having a problem in understanding the mindset...

We don't see it as "compulsory giving", but something we willingly do through the government. The way I, and I think the others in this conversation, see the government is that it is not exempt from following the commands of scripture because the people in governments are given the same commands as everyone else: love God and love your neighbor as yourself. I think that when the rules of a nation do not provide for their people things like affordable healthcare and education, livable wages, welfare for when things go wrong, etc. they are not loving their neighbor as themselves.

This has nothing to do with the church, and it is not saying that the church does not need to step up to the plate, the church should step up to the plate. I think that ideally, it should be both the church and society, which includes the government, taking care of the poor and less fortunate.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0