Only way?

[Just_a_Joe]

[Staff edit]

Some people think, you get in the afterlife exactly what you yourself program it to be - forever or for a limited period, I don't know how they believe. I.e. if you lived all your life fearing hell or collecting all kinds of bad thoughts about yourself then that's what your imagination will create for you after you cross over. Some awful torment and deep sadness of sorts. Or if you were a happy go lucky type of person believing in a Santa Claus type of deity, then yes you will end up in a sweet paradise full of pleasure and loved ones. Smth to that effect. Not that I buy it, or anything else in particular, just an idea.

Yes, let's sweep all the difficult subjects under the carpet. Hard to navigate in doctrine, really hard. Rarely a simple or clear answer. Confusing.

 

[rockytopva]

Where much is known much is required...

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12

RW Schambach bringing his boss to a point of decision...

 

[ChristnMe]

the simply answer is yes. we are in a grace period started when Jesus ministered first to the Jews and continued by the Apostles like Paul etc.

God is the same yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. He is also more interested in the hearts of men rather than their outward actions. Eg. 'did you kill because to defend' or did you kill (murder) because you wanted to covet'.

Jesus is God's embodiment of righteousness which includes truth. Because without truth you cannot have Godly wisdom, knowledge or understanding. Jesus came not to start a new kind of truth but to continue and clarify truth starting from the garden. Man has been made to be confused by satanic principles and powers to kill, steal and destroy.

Jesus is the only way, because He is Truth, not an interpretation on the Truth. Jesus said, 'you see, hear, watch me is the same as if God Himself was doing, talking, acting, because Jesus did not come for himself but to reveal God Himself.

God wants Truth to be the foundation to receive Salvation and all its benefits.

 

[Colter]

Some people think, you get in the afterlife exactly what you yourself program it to be - forever or for a limited period, I don't know how they believe. I.e. if you lived all your life fearing hell or collecting all kinds of bad thoughts about yourself then that's what your imagination will create for you after you cross over. Some awful torment and deep sadness of sorts. Or if you were a happy go lucky type of person believing in a Santa Claus type of deity, then yes you will end up in a sweet paradise full of pleasure and loved ones. Smth to that effect. Not that I buy it, or anything else in particular, just an idea.

Yes, let's sweep all the difficult subjects under the carpet. Hard to navigate in doctrine, really hard. Rarely a simple or clear answer. Confusing.

I agree with you on this, the many different Christian doctrines leave a lot to be desired.

In my theology death adds nothing accept the fact of survival, we pick up right where we left off on this world in terms of our spiritual growth. Upon awakening on the mansion worlds we slowly begin to remember the good experiences of our earth life, the bad is forgotten.

 

[CrystalDragon]

the simply answer is yes. we are in a grace period started when Jesus ministered first to the Jews and continued by the Apostles like Paul etc.

God is the same yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. He is also more interested in the hearts of men rather than their outward actions. Eg. 'did you kill because to defend' or did you kill (murder) because you wanted to covet'.

Jesus is God's embodiment of righteousness which includes truth. Because without truth you cannot have Godly wisdom, knowledge or understanding. Jesus came not to start a new kind of truth but to continue and clarify truth starting from the garden. Man has been made to be confused by satanic principles and powers to kill, steal and destroy.

Jesus is the only way, because He is Truth, not an interpretation on the Truth. Jesus said, 'you see, hear, watch me is the same as if God Himself was doing, talking, acting, because Jesus did not come for himself but to reveal God Himself.

God wants Truth to be the foundation to receive Salvation and all its benefits.

I just was reminded of something—if God wants Truth to be the foundation, why did he send a lying spirit in one verse, and one point in the NT says that there will be a great deception and God will make it so they believe the lie? Or Jesus speaking in parables so the people wouldn't understand, for that matter?

 

[com7fy8]

Some people think, you get in the afterlife exactly what you yourself program it to be

Galatians 6:7-8 > we reap so much more than we sow. How we sow ourselves into death is how we could become, many times over.

 

[Tree of Life]

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

Abraham never heard about Jesus and he's not going to hell.

 

[Colter]

I just was reminded of something—if God wants Truth to be the foundation, why did he send a lying spirit in one verse, and one point in the NT says that there will be a great deception and God will make it so they believe the lie? Or Jesus speaking in parables so the people wouldn't understand, for that matter?

He didn't, that was written in an age when they thought God was responsible for good and evil. Man lies quite on his own.

 

[Albion]

Abraham never heard about Jesus and he's not going to hell.

What's the point in hearing/believing in Jesus, anyway? Answer that question and you'll know why "Abraham...not going to hell" is misleading you.

 

[Tree of Life]

What's the point in hearing/believing in Jesus, anyway?

The point would be so that we can be saved from sin and God's wrath.

Answer that question and you'll know why "Abraham...not going to hell" is misleading you.

Abraham is not going to hell because he is saved by Jesus. Abraham embraced Jesus by faith, yet Abraham never knew him by name. He could only embrace the little revelation that he had. In what way am I being misled?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Why does this bother you so?

Not just this. Here's why:

1. God is perfectly just.
2. God created everything, including the conditions for the human to fall into sin.
3. The human fell into sin.
4. God created a place of torment (or decided to annihilate) for fallen angels and humans.
5. God provided a way of escape from the torment (or annihilation) and into a happy pleasurable place for the soul (a human's memory and personal identity) after the physical life.
6. The method of escape: faith, i.e. believing in certain ideas or information; or faith + works.
7. Faith (or faith+works) is subject to hearing and understanding the information. Thus, escape is subject to hearing and understanding the information.

This is what probably 99.99% of churches are teaching, more or less with a number variations.

It is absolutely logical to ask a question about the fate of those who have never heard or heard insufficient or false information about the way of escape/salvation.

That is, a contradiction of clauses 1 and 7.

There are many, many, many other questions resulted from 1-7 above and other considerations if you go into deeper detail.

And why would it determine whether or not you became a disciple of Christ yourself?

I really don't know. Maybe. I'm searching. Aren't we all?

 

[Hallstone]

Hi. I've been asking this question in different threads at this forum, so far two answers received are "I don't know" or "we're not supposed to know".

Jesus in John 14:6 says He is the only way to the Father.

The people who have never heard about Jesus or never heard a proper gospel about Jesus - are they all going to hell? They have no faith in Jesus.

Since every single heart on this planet is known to God, and He has said that anyone who seeks Him with all their heart shall find Him, I would say that if most of the people on this planet perish because they did not seek Him then I would consider that self inflicted, because Jesus is God, whoever seeks God, finds Jesus, also the fact that God can send a follower to any person on the planet at any time, which He has done from the beginning, and is still doing. God knows everything and everyone from the beginning to the end. So the main question does not really have bearing because God is actively involved in the lives of every single person on this planet every moment of every day drawing them to the truth, either you are actively resisting it, or actively responding to it, there is no neutral position.

 

[Albion]

The point would be so that we can be saved from sin and God's wrath.

Would you agree that a fuller answer has to include the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross?

Abraham is not going to hell because he is saved by Jesus. Abraham embraced Jesus by faith, yet Abraham never knew him by name. He could only embrace the little revelation that he had. In what way am I being misled?

For one thing, Abraham died long before Jesus and was NOT permitted into heaven until Christ's sacrifice for sin was paid. Then, he was, but because of Jesus AND because Abraham had obeyed God and found favor with the Father while alive. I noted BTW that you did not claim that every Jew before Jesus (and every Egyptian and Sumerian and Assyrian, etc. etc.) was similarly saved.

No Mongolian Buddhist (to use the example that was put to us a few posts ago) can flatly be said to be heaven bound--with no connection to Jesus at all, and certainly not because he was nice to the other herdsmen.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

THANK YOU, EVERYONE, FOR YOUR RESPONSES!!!

I read every one carefully. I will try to respond to all as much as I can.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Abraham never heard about Jesus and he's not going to hell.

Who said ABRAHAM THE FATHER OF FAITH never heard about Y'SHUA ?

Does anyone think YHWH ABBA in HEAVEN
NEVER told Adam and Havah ABOUT MESSIAH ? / SALVATION? / HIS PLAN?

GREAT AND WONDERFUL IS HE - YHWH ETERNAL SOVEREIGN ELOHIM !

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

4. God created a place of torment (or decided to annihilate) for fallen angels and humans.

No, HE did not. HE says HE created the place of torment for satan and his angels. Not for human beings.

6. The method of escape: faith, i.e. believing in certain ideas or information; or faith + works.

No, it is only by grace thru faith in JESUS , even this faith being a gift from YHWH.

7. Faith (or faith+works) is subject to hearing and understanding the information. Thus, escape is subject to hearing and understanding the information.

Many hear, but do not do. They remain unsaved whether they understand or not.
Many do not understand "information", yet are saved in Y'shua.

I really don't know. Maybe. I'm searching. Aren't we all?

Many have rejected Y'SHUA and are not searching.
Daily we [ecclesia] and (perhaps) others see this. (every day).

(all subject to correction/ if 'remembered' incorrectly)
Test everything by YHWH'S WORD, in PRAYER ALWAYS.

 

[Tree of Life]

Would you agree that a fuller answer has to include the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross?

Of course. The cross is included in Jesus.

For one thing, Abraham died long before Jesus and was NOT permitted into heaven until Christ's sacrifice for sin was paid.

Sounds speculative. How do you know this? The parable of the rich man and Lazarus seems to suggest the opposite. Heaven is called "Abraham's bosom".

Then, he was, but because of Jesus AND because Abraham had obeyed God and found favor with the Father while alive.

By faith alone. By Christ alone. Abraham's obedience didn't contribute to his salvation.

I noted BTW that you did not claim that every Jew before Jesus (and every Egyptian and Sumerian and Assyrian, etc. etc.) was similarly saved.

Every Jew before Jesus who embraced the covenant of grace by the revelation that he had at the time is saved because of Jesus.

No Mongolian Buddhist (to use the example that was put to us a few posts ago) can flatly be said to be heaven bound--with no connection to Jesus at all, and certainly not because he was nice to the other herdsmen.

Salvation is only through Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Sounds speculative. How do you know this? The parable of the rich man and Lazarus seems to suggest the opposite. Heaven is called "Abraham's bosom".

No, "Abraham's Bosom" was a kind of limbo for those who would be saved except that no one could be saved until Christ's perfect sacrifice atoned for the sins of mankind.

Every Jew before Jesus who embraced the covenant of grace by the revelation that he had at the time is saved because of Jesus.

So, as I said, it's not every Jew who came before Jesus. Yet the issue here on this thread is that God is somehow unfair if billions who never heard the name of Jesus are not saved.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, as I said, it's not every Jew who came before Jesus. Yet the issue here on this thread is that God is somehow unfair if billions who never heard the name of Jesus are not saved.

Strange considering
billions who have heard the name of Jesus and rejected Him are not saved.

Sort of a severe reminder of "If the righteous are just barely saved, what is to become of the ungodly?" .

 

[Colter]

Not just this. Here's why:

1. God is perfectly just.
2. God created everything, including the conditions for the human to fall into sin.
3. The human fell into sin.
4. God created a place of torment (or decided to annihilate) for fallen angels and humans.
5. God provided a way of escape from the torment (or annihilation) and into a happy pleasurable place for the soul (a human's memory and personal identity) after the physical life.
6. The method of escape: faith, i.e. believing in certain ideas or information; or faith + works.
7. Faith (or faith+works) is subject to hearing and understanding the information. Thus, escape is subject to hearing and understanding the information.

This is what probably 99.99% of churches are teaching, more or less with a number variations.

It is absolutely logical to ask a question about the fate of those who have never heard or heard insufficient or false information about the way of escape/salvation.

That is, a contradiction of clauses 1 and 7.

There are many, many, many other questions resulted from 1-7 above and other considerations if you go into deeper detail.



I really don't know. Maybe. I'm searching. Aren't we all?

God created an evolutionary world that was betrayed.