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Oneness Pentecostalism is not Biblical.

AlexDTX

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A lot of people think they have it. False teachers don't.
It is a matter of maturity and experience. The Spirit bears witness with our spirits. When I speak with a born again Christian, the mouth will speak from the abundance of the heart, and it is easy to tell who walks with Christ and who does not. Labels are meaningless. I don't care what denomination he or she comes from, I can tell. Jesus said, My sheep know my voice. When Jesus speaks through another person, you can tell Jesus is there in that person if you are one of His sheep.
 
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Anto9us

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Choked in what way

Wow, lotta posts gone down since you asked that, RLH, I meant I "choked" when I got to their non-acceptance of the Trinity in the book of their beliefs -- the United Pentecostals in the little book their pastor gave me On Being Pentecostal. It really didn't go too deep into the matter, but deep enough to say that they flat out reject the standard Trinity concept -- I CHOKED as in 'Whoah, I can't swallow this!' Yet the brief book did not go on to explain anything like Modalism, or a full picture of their alternative to the Trinity. Also, RLH, I heartily agree that ViaCrucis should be a Sunday School teacher, he explains things quite well.

The Trinity is the item of theology I most adamantly believe in, yet am most inadequate of explaining comprehensively, not just to Oneness or Unitarians, but even to myself. It was correctly stated above, I think by ViaCrucis, that the Christological debates were largely carried on in post-biblical terms.

"Mask" is like a dirty word in this thread, but that is exactly what PERSONA originally meant in Greek -- the word came from their DRAMA, when an actor (always male) wore a large PERSONA or big mask that not only identified his character in the play, but also contained a megaphone to amplify his voice in those days without microphones. It's just used as an analogy, an illustration, the analogy fails in that God the Father could play three parts, but in a play could not be present as three characters at once all onstage at the same time, as it has been discussed here correctly that the Baptism of Jesus shoots Modalism out of the water because the three personae of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are present simultaneously, doing three distinct specific things.
 
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Call me Nic

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Of course God is one. Nobody is disputing that. I said the Bible never mentions that God is "one person", and it doesn't. It doesn't say that. You will no more find the Bible saying "God is one person" than you will it saying "God is three persons". It says neither in so many words.

-CryptoLutheran
What about Job 13:7-8?
"Will ye speak wickedly for God? And talk deceitfully for him? Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?"
 
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Anto9us

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I believe that Jesus was truly God and truly Man - when the Logos 'became flesh' I believe He stayed human even in glorified state. He told His disciples to handle His flesh and bone body to prove that He was not just a Spirit appearing to them.

Christ had/has two natures -- divine and human. The Chalcedon Council spelled this out specifically, even though some like Oriental Orthodox didn't buy into the council's decisions.

The only way we are "like the angels" when we get to heaven is that we are not given in marriage. Period. Bible says no more of how we are like the angels.

I don't even know that I can agree with Oneness Pentecostals (United Penetcostal Church) being delegated to this DEBATE OTHER RELIGIONS subforum, but the CF litmus test is Nicene Creed, so, so be it.

Let's see what else I disagree about before looking up if hypostasis was already a biblical term, I think it was, homousias was not -- so many half-wayers wanted the term to be homoiousias - of LIKE essence with the Father, rather than of SAME essence/substance.

Mormons turn homoousias into trying to say God the Father has a physical body, saying if Jesus had one and Father is same substance, Father has a physical body.

Further discussion of psuchical and pneumatical would help - Watchman Nee is only writer that flat out used the word "soulish" (or rather his translator did).

Viva homoousias!!
 
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Anto9us

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Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

"person" is the translation here of hypostasis - so we have a term for person that is not related to the Greek mask
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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biblehub shows 28 translations including the KJV and here is it's result of which words are used in translations

divine/divinity/deity 18
Godhead 6
God/He/His 4

clearly divine/divinity/deity is not my "just one solo guy" opinion. These translations were "double checked" as well so what makes the process behind the KJV that much better that it trumps everything else? Who said Godhead = the trinity anyways, causYou may say that you believe in the KJV as the prime modern authority on scripture but doing so would discredit you as being bias. This just turns into a broken record of you saying whatever the KJV says is correct regardless what anything else says to the contrary including the original greek and this argument apparently is supposed to silence the matter. And it's just not what the KJV says but also you're interpretation of the KJV. Well, I can't participate in a dialogue that goes on like this. I get your rules are "according to the KJV". It's your OP so your rules... sure that's fine just state your conditions in the OP that you only accept the KJV and only your interpretation of it... since I don't agree I'm not going to play along.

While I do use Modern Translations, they are not my final word of authority (like the KJV) because a person can just pick whatever translation fits what they want to believe. Having one Word of God that a person cannot play with the words to their own liking prevents this. I am sorry that you have not found that perfect Word of God like I have. I will pray that you will find it one day, my friend.

Peace and blessings be unto you and your family.
 
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Anto9us

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from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations#Oneness_Pentecostalism

Oneness Pentecostalism
Main article: Oneness Pentecostalism

Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
Apostolic Gospel Church of Jesus Christ
Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ
Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
Christ Gospel Churches International
Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
True Jesus Church
United Pentecostal Church International

I was under the impression that Oneness and United Pentecostal Church were the same -- here it is merely one of several pentecostal denominations
 
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ViaCrucis

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1. Yes throughout the Gospel the son speaks o the father, but the father was in him and he was in the father and they are one. If a man has seen the son he has seen the father. They are the same being but each form(father, son, holy spirit) with a different purpose a different function. Just as water has different forms but remains water still, each form appears different but is still only just water.
John 10:30, 36-38
30 I and my Father are one.

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:9-11
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Collosians 1:14-15
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Collosians 2:8-9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2. The word of God is Christ and he indeed became flesh because that is his function/purpose. But he is still one and the same with the father and the holy spirit.

3. He has a different purpose than the father does, but that is the only difference between son and father one does one thing the other another but they remain the same.

4. And i agree there is love when the Lord as the Father says he loves the son( not in that he loves himself as if prideful) he loves the other as his son since that is the form he took on, the form of one that is a servant.

Understand that Trinitarians use all the very passages you've cited as affirmations of Christ's Deity and His unity with the Father; these are the passages we use to speak of the Son as homoousios with the Father, of one being with the Father. What none of these passages say, however, is that the Son is the Father. Instead they speak of the perichoresis, the mutual-coinhering of the Son and the Father, they speak of the Son's unity with the Father, they speak of the way in which Jesus, as the Son made flesh, reveals God, and so forth. But these passages never confuse or conflate the Father and the Son, there is always a distinction.

And this distinction is not one of "purpose", because the Son shares the same purpose as the Father. The Father isn't Creator while the Son is not, the Son is also the Creator of all things, "For by Him and for Him were all things made" and "through Him were all things made, and nothing that was made was made apart from Him". What is true of the Father is true also of the Son and the Holy Spirit: Creator, Savior, Judge, Lord, King, Almighty, Eternal, etc.

The distinction is not about "purpose" but in Hypostasis. The Son is a distinct That from the Father, but is the same What. Because it is the Father who has begotten the Son, and it is the Son who is begotten of the Father. The Son has His origin in and of the Father, not in time, but eternity, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father. There was never a time when the Son was not, He is eternal, everlasting, true and very God even as His Father is eternal, everlasting, true and very God.

The Son is not a mask, a function, a form, a mode, or just some transient flesh-suit. He is the One who from all eternity was in the beginning with God, as God's only-begotten Son and Word, the very beloved of the Father. The Son knows the Father, because the Son has always known the Father. It is precisely because the Son has always known the Father that the Son can show us the Father, and can say, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father" because the Son, uniquely, reveals the Father to us. Because this One He calls "Father" is His Father. And so when we come to know this One as Father, it is only by adoption and grace, having become children of God by our new birth. We, therefore, have been united to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and it is by our union to Jesus that we share in Jesus the Sonship of Jesus, which makes us "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus" and all of this by the power of the Spirit, so that we have been made children and heirs, receiving the Spirit of God's Son by whom we cry out "Abba! Father!". The Father of Jesus has become our Father by grace and adoption. This is a thoroughly Trinitarian reality: United to Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, under the Father. We therefore know the Father by His Son and Spirit. And in this grace we have come to share in the very life of the Holy Trinity, that life which God alone has, and perichoretically shares: The life of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit in their perichoresis, love, and unity.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations#Oneness_Pentecostalism

Oneness Pentecostalism
Main article: Oneness Pentecostalism

Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
Apostolic Gospel Church of Jesus Christ
Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ
Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
Christ Gospel Churches International
Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
True Jesus Church
United Pentecostal Church International

I was under the impression that Oneness and United Pentecostal Church were the same -- here it is merely one of several pentecostal denominations

The UPCI is simply the largest, or at least the most widely recognized of the Oneness Pentecostal groups.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Anto9us

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

The ambiguity of the term "person" has been noted by both Oneness and Trinitarian proponents as a source of conflict.[16] This issue is addressed by Trinitarian scholar and Christian apologist Alister McGrath:

"The word ‘person’ has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to be used in connection with the ‘threefoldness of God’. When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word ‘person’ with a different meaning. The word ‘person’ originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor’s face-mask—and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play. By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. ... Confusing these two senses of the word ‘person’ inevitably leads to the idea that God is actually a committee."[17]

McGrath is helpful here in contrasting modern with ancient sense of persona.

Tertullian is not the earliest theologian to speak of a Trinity, but was the first to use the word in Latin (trinitas)
An earlier guy, Theophilus, wrote of a trinity concept using Father, Word and Wisdom rather than Father Son and Holy Ghost.
 
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Call me Nic

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

The ambiguity of the term "person" has been noted by both Oneness and Trinitarian proponents as a source of conflict.[16] This issue is addressed by Trinitarian scholar and Christian apologist Alister McGrath:

"The word ‘person’ has changed its meaning since the third century when it began to be used in connection with the ‘threefoldness of God’. When we talk about God as a person, we naturally think of God as being one person. But theologians such as Tertullian, writing in the third century, used the word ‘person’ with a different meaning. The word ‘person’ originally derives from the Latin word persona, meaning an actor’s face-mask—and, by extension, the role which he takes in a play. By stating that there were three persons but only one God, Tertullian was asserting that all three major roles in the great drama of human redemption are played by the one and the same God. The three great roles in this drama are all played by the same actor: God. Each of these roles may reveal God in a somewhat different way, but it is the same God in every case. So when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word, and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word. ... Confusing these two senses of the word ‘person’ inevitably leads to the idea that God is actually a committee."[17]

McGrath is helpful here in contrasting modern with ancient sense of persona.

Tertullian is not the earliest theologian to speak of a Trinity, but was the first to use the word in Latin (trinitas)
An earlier guy, Theophilus, wrote of a trinity concept using Father, Word and Wisdom rather than Father Son and Holy Ghost.
This makes sense.
 
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Anto9us

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The UPCI is simply the largest, or at least the most widely recognized of the Oneness Pentecostal groups.

Thanks, ViaCrucis -- I am still tempted to go back to that UPCI church so close to me; I just can't get past the hump of "no Trinity"
 
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Anto9us

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Antioch

"Trinity

Theophilus's apology is most notable for being the earliest extant Christian work to use the word "Trinity" (Greek: τριάς trias), although it does not use the common formula of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" to describe the Trinity. Rather, Theophilus himself puts it as "God, his Word (Logos) and his Wisdom (Sophia),"[19] perhaps following the early Christian practice of identifying the Holy Spirit as the Wisdom of God, as he seems to demonstrate in his interpretation of Psalm 33:6,[20] and which is also expressed in the works his contemporary, Irenaeus of Lyon, who commenting on that selfsame verse writes,

“By the word of the Lord were the heavens established, and by his spirit all their power." Since then the Word establishes, that is to say, gives body and grants the reality of being, and the Spirit gives order and form to the diversity of the powers; rightly and fittingly is the Word called the Son, and the Spirit the Wisdom of God.[21]

This practice served as a way to express Christian doctrine in a way that is more relatable to contemporary viewsto ideas found in Greek philosophy or Hellenistic Judaism in which such concepts as Nous (Mind), Logos (Word, Reason) and Sophia (Wisdom) were common. As the Patripassionist heresies arose, however, the formula of "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" became more prominently featured, as such beliefs denied the persons of the Economy (an earlier developed term for the Trinity). As Theophilus does not appear to be introducing the word Trinity in novel fashion, it is probable that the word was in use before this time.[22] The context for his use of the word Trinity is commentary on the successive work of the creation weeks (Genesis chapters 1-3), where Theophilus expresses the Trinity as follows:

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.

— Theophilus[23]
The concept of intermediate divine beings was common to Platonism and certain Jewish sects. In Proverbs 8 Wisdom (as feminine consort) is described as God's Counsellor and Workmistress, who dwelt beside Him before the creation of the world."

So our earliest proponents of Trinity include this Theophilus of Antioch, of which we have only one piece of writing, Tertullian (who later went Montanist on us) and Origen (who contributed the idea that the Son is being eternally generated by the Father). Origen was posthumously excommunicated by the ancient church 2 centuries after he died, I think it was for saying that it might be possible for the devil to repent and be saved.

Athanasius and the Cappadocian Trio of Basil, Gregory of Nazianzus (sp) and Gregory of Nyssa all contributed much to amplifying a doctrine of Trinity -- by then we are in the 4th century -- the big battle of Athanasius against Arius was that the Son was same essence as the Father. There were several "lead changes" in this battle as the arch heretic Arius kept getting an upper hand, I mean the opinion of people including Constantine was going back and forth from supporting Athanasius and Arius.
 
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Anto9us

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Athanasius's victory over Arianism was like a basketball game that went into five overtimes before it was finally decided - Athanasius was banished five times and always managed to get the call reversed and come out of exile. Oddly, I don't know why I am writing about this specifically, because Oneness Pentecostals seem to have no problem with Father and Son being of the same essence; it's just background. In 325 first version of Nicene Creed was compiled with not much in it on Holy Spirit. His role was expanded in the final Nicene Creed of 381.
 
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Anto9us

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So it is that in the little handbook of pentecostal beliefs put out by UPCI, On Being Pentecostal, it goes right from a section that denies the Trinity to a section that affirms the full deity of Jesus Christ; saying: "Jesus Christ is both God and man. He is the one God incarnate" and it quotes Colossians 2:9, 2 Corinthians 5:19 and 1 Timothy 3:16. Also 2 Corinthians 4:4, Colossians 1:5, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:3 and 2 Peter 1:1. Their handbook deals with a lot of scriptures we have talked about in this thread.
 
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redleghunter

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