One thing i struggle with - predestination

The only problem with predestination is when man's imagination gets hold of an idea only God can truly administer with perfection, justice, and love. Our imagination can only detract from the things possible only with God. Remember the disciples asking Jesus who could be saved when it would be easier for a rich man to be saved than a camel to go through a needle? What adds up to impossibility in our minds remains a possibility with God.

Most of the time, man's pride rebels at the thought of God taking what belongs to Himself and doing with it what gives Him pleasure, and when men speak in terms only God can express they nearly always come off sounding a bit arrogant or out of their place.
I choose to trust in God's perfect justice and love towards the good man that has been given little knowledge or none of God, for that life belongs to God and He knows with perfection and ability we may not know of how to minister to the things that He has created. Trust that....I do.

There are plenty of threads in the Soteriology & Hamartiology forums regarding Predestination & Calvinism.

-A

It is something that is hard to grasp, but God does not call use to understand just to believe and have faith.

Many people have died and been sent to hell at the Lord's hand, and many more will be sent on judgement day. Praise the Lord that we are not one of them!

Hello once again,

I would like to say something about predestination and as I do I want you to keep this one verse in mind.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God made ALL things including good and evil,

Isaiah 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God is the Father of all spirits,

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live.

A spirit is a mind, it's all our thoughts, feelings and emotions.

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

There is a mindset that is pleasing to God and there is a mindset that is not pleasing to God. These two mindsets were created by God so we could have a free will. You can see a picture of this in the garden with the tree of good and evil. Adam had a choice to obey God and live in the Spirit or not live in the Spirit but rather live in the flesh and disobey God.

These two mindsets are predestined, one to life (Spirit) and one to death (flesh).

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Look at it this way, you have two trains on a schedule, one going to Texas and one going to New York, both trains are predestined to go where they are going. Now, where you want to go will depend on what train you get on.

All throughout scripture we see God giving us pictures of these two mindsets.

1 Peter 4:5-6 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Galatians 5:17-21 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

These things that are done in the flesh are coming from thoughts without God, it is a mindset of self/sin.

The mindset of God is this,

Galattians 5:22-25 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

God gives us another picture of these two mindsets that are predestined and it's found in,

Genesis 25:21-25 And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the Lord. And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.

Romans 9:9-13 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Esau is a picture of red and red is a symbol of sin.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Esau is a picture of the mindset living in the flesh and his life portrayed it well.

Cain and Able is another picture of these two mindsets. Cain would have been accespted if he did what was right.

Genesis 4:6-7 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.''
Adam is also called red in the original language because Adam in his natural state is sin.

The flesh and the Spirit are two mindsets that are predestined, one is going to heaven and one is not, where are you going?

There is so much more I can write but for your sake I won't overload you.

Deuteronomy 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Which one will you chose?

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Peace to you in Christ,
John

Just a question...I thought evil was the pursuit of good, just in the wrong way. Or too much of a good thing.

Hm...what I mean to say is, God's creations were not created bad, but they became that way due to sin.

armothe said:

There are plenty of threads in the Soteriology & Hamartiology forums regarding Predestination & Calvinism.

-A

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Just to note that there is another view of predestination that is not Calvinism, but does not follow the path of Arminianism either.

Hi Filo,
I don't have much time to go into detail because I have to get ready for work. But is something to think about and seek the Lord in His word.

What if I where to say that everyone is predestined for heaven in God's plan of salvation.

What if I were to say that everyone has been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world.

Remember, 2000 years ago, Christ died for the sins of the whole world but the lamb was already slain in God's mind before the foundation of the world it was just reveal in the last days literally to help us understand His love for us.

What if I were to say that you have to get your name blotted out of the book of life to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

What if I were to say that in all of God's creation He has always called out a remnant the elect to represent His will on earth. These are people who have a special anointing of God to do His work and carry the gospel, the good news of God's saving work.

All throughout God's word He is telling us how to stay in His plan, it's us who stray away from His predestined plan to save us.

Remember, Christ came for the lost sheep, those who stray.

Look in your bible and find out when we are written in the book of life. Is it when we believe or is it before that. Is when we believe the way we experience the joy of God's saving work that was done before the foundation of the world?

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

We all have been predestines to eternal life through Jesus Christ but some of us get our names blotted out of the book of life. None of us get our names put in the book of life.

Study these concepts out and let me know what you come up with.

Peace, love and joy in Christ,
John

middo said:

true, and how do you relate that to predestination?

so k4c what you are basically saying is anyone CAN be saved, but God knows who will be saved and who wont? or are you saying there are specific people who just will never be saved due to Gods predestination?

Sorry, i just got lost lol.

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Please let me comment. God knows but He does not tempt. God takes the worst thing and makes it the best. See what He did with the terrible sin done against His Son? He made it a glorious victory over death to give thanks over - salvation for all of mankind. Yes, He created the light and the dark, and He knows the beginning and the end, but He cannot be accused or questioned of being evil or doing something evil.

The doctrine of predestination and the ****** souls as I understand it:

We are created in his image and likeness, meaning we are like God in his image and likeness because we A) have a immortal spirit B) we have free will and C) we have understanding.

When Adam and Eve fell from grace they lost the gifts that God had given to them which was perfect knowledge, freedom from death, sanctifying grace, freedom from any kind of suffering, and they had perfect control over their emotions.

We did not lose the dignity of being human beings created in the image and likeness of God, we just lost sanctifying grace and our natures were wounded, not destroyed and we inherit the inclination to sin but we still have free will, undersatnding, and immortal souls.

With that said, God in his knowledge with everything being present to him now, knows who will accept his mercy and who will reject his mercy and he, allows our free choices in his plan, he does not interfere with our free will.

How can God still create souls who he knows will reject him and end in hell? We can not say, no ones knows his mind.

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I'm happy you've been taught predestination. Many try to find a way around it, but the Bible does say God predestined--so whether you can graps the concept or not, never let that truth go. For some Scriptural backup:


Is God unrighteous for choosing to love one and hate another before they had done any good or evil? God forbid.

Romans 9:11,13
"For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand... For it is written, 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

(For definition of God's hatred toward Esau: Mal. 1:3,4)

Romans 9:14
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!"

You're not the first to question God's righteousness when sovereign grace is revealed. The Greeks were having a very hard time with predestination, and so Paul is writting here in defense to this difficult concept that God would allow some to perish in hell when He has no pleasure in it. They are correct when they say God wishes that no man should perish (2 Pet. 3:9). That is very true, but they tend to use that to disregard election. Thus a problem is created: you cannot deny predestination when it it mentioned in the Bible. So you must reconcile the two, not disregard one. The folly of many today is that they reject the truth of God's sovereignty because they cannot understand it.

God choose whom He loved before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). Not only that, but He only chose a few (Mt. 22:14; 20:16).

Is God unfair? No, but rather He's merciful. Everyone has sinned and fallen short to the glory of God. All deserve hell. God in His mercy chose to save those whom He willed. This is not at all an act of unfairness--it's an act of grace. This is a critical thing to understand.

In the context of Romans 9:10-24 we must understand that we are the clay and God is the potter (Rom. 9:20,21), and God "has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (Rom. 9:18).

Now you'll say, so how does God judge those for wickedness if He is sovereign and chooses whom He'll save. How? I don't know, but God answers that question Himself in Romans 9:19-21.

I suppose it is a hard concept, but God is the potter and we are the clay. Whatever God wills to do with us is He's choice. Free will isn't real, it isn't ever mentioned in the Bible. It's just a device man made up because he doesn't want to accept predestination. I just wanted to establish God's sovereignty, because it sounded like you were about to go on the flip side.

With that said, God in his knowledge with everything being present to him now, knows who will accept his mercy and who will reject his mercy and he, allows our free choices in his plan, he does not interfere with our free will.

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This is one of those methods that many use to get around predestination. The only verse they use to support this is Romans 8:29. The big problem with it is that Greek grammer rules don't support that theory. In Romans 8:29 "forknowledge" is equated to "predestination" according to the Granville Sharp Greek grammer rule (do research on it if you wish to understand what I'm talking about). God did not look ahead and then predestinate some according to their works--lest that be works-salvation. God chose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

Mounts you saying that He'll only save those He wills regardless who accepts Christ?

middo said:

I am a christian and have been for my whole life but one area i struggle to comprehend is that God chooses who is saved, at least this is what i am taught. So the saved are pre-destined. What about those who he chooses not to save? Then they get sent to hell for eternity when they had no choice in the matter as we dont choose to be saved, God chooses us. How fair is this and is this an act of a loving God? Just a concept ive always struggled with. Ive been shown scriptures backing up both the pre-destined salvation and the anyone can be saved idea and i guess i am asking which do you follow and why?

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The important thing to remember is that both the elect and reprobate are getting exactly what they want. No one who is reprobate wants salvation, or seeks Christ.

Sharky said:

Mounts you saying that He'll only save those He wills regardless who accepts Christ?

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No. Anyone who believes on Christ will be saved. Only those whom God reveals Christ to can believe [the called]. And finally, only those whom God gives the faith to believe will believe and be saved [the chosen]. Salvation is all of God's grace, man cannot earn it.

Love one another as you love yourself, and believe on Jesus and you will be saved. Just understand, the only reason you believe is because God was pleased to reveal it to you. You did not believe because of something of your own resources, for no natural man seeks or understands God (Romans 3:11). And we are all, without the Spirit which is the gift of God given to whom he pleases, natural men.

Ahh gotcha .

I don't know if this really fits in here, but in my bible it reads He is the saviour of all people, especially believers.

how does that work? is there a hierchy of some sort? does this mean all people are saved but the believers are saved especially?

that doesn't make sense to me