One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

bbbbbbb said:

So, if YOU were to decide to sprout a new arm would that cause you to lose your security as a human?

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Your analogy is like comparing apples and oranges - it is illogical. Instead, why don't you answer my simple and direct question - if YOU took the mark of the beast would YOU lose your salvation? A simple yes or no would suffice.

ToBeLoved said:

Let

Let me speak slowly.

It is a verse about who Christ is and what He does.

You pulled that out to be about OUR salvation. So the context in your verse is wrong. All of us who are saved obey him. So that has nothing to do with your point.

Coming to Christ for salvation is obeying Him.

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Your unfamiliarity with the Greek language is apparent. The Greek word for "obey" in Heb 5:9 is a present tense verb better translated as "obeying." Therefore a believer must continue to obey in order to have eternal life. This verse does not reference a past moment of obedience as to when in the past one first believed in Christ. Instead, this verse indicates ongoing obedience.
And contrary to your unbiblical opinion, not all believers continue to obey. Some turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15).

Oldmantook said:

Your unfamiliarity with the Greek language is apparent. The Greek word for "obey" in Heb 5:9 is a present tense verb better translated as "obeying." Therefore a believer must continue to obey in order to have eternal life. This verse does not reference a past moment of obedience as to when in the past one first believed in Christ. Instead, this verse indicates ongoing obedience.
And contrary to your unbiblical opinion, not all believers continue to obey. Some turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15).

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It doesn’t mean salvation can be lost or that someone earns throughout their life.

ToBeLoved said:

It doesn’t mean salvation can be lost or it is continuing

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Your opinion must be scripturally substantiated. Heb 5:9 clearly states that eternal life is given to all those OBEYING him - ongoing obedience - agree or disagree?
1 Tim 5:15 clearly states: "Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan." So you believe those believers who turn away from Jesus and now follow Satan are still saved and not lost? Yes or no?

Oldmantook said:

Your analogy is like comparing apples and oranges - it is illogical. Instead, why don't you answer my simple and direct question - if YOU took the mark of the beast would YOU lose your salvation? A simple yes or no would suffice.

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If I took the mark of the beast, thenjoy I never had salvation in the first place. I deceived myself. If I were to leave Christ then I was never part of Christ.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

If I took the mark of the beast, thenjoy I never had salvation in the first place. I deceived myself. If I were to leave Christ then I was never part of Christ.

In Christ
Daniel

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Yes that is indeed a possibility - that you may not now even be a Christian. Isn't that an unsettling thought for you? That applies to everyone else who calls them a believer as well. We don't really know that we are Christians because some of us may very well accept the mark. Does that sound like the assurance of eternal security to you? Doesn't that make eternal security conditional, instead of unconditional as eternal security advocates are so fond of teaching? This belief is a logical fallacy otherwise known as an overgeneralization. Just because some who fall away were never believers to begin with, it is a fallacy of logic to then draw the unwarranted conclusion that all who fall away were never believers to begin with. That would be like saying just because some chickens lay brown eggs, all chicken lay brown eggs. The first clause while being true, is not sufficient warrant for concluding the second warrant as all chickens do not lay brown eggs. In the same way some who fall away were never believers however others who do so are actually believers who can fall away (by taking the mark) and thus turning away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15).

Ron Gurley said:

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

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"Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position" (2nd Pet 3:17).

Oldmantook said:

Yes that is indeed a possibility - that you may not now even be a Christian. Isn't that an unsettling thought for you? That applies to everyone else who calls them a believer as well. We don't really know that we are Christians because some of us may very well accept the mark. Does that sound like the assurance of eternal security to you? Doesn't that make eternal security conditional, instead of unconditional as eternal security advocates are so fond of teaching? This belief is a logical fallacy otherwise known as an overgeneralization. Just because some who fall away were never believers to begin with, it is a fallacy of logic to then draw the unwarranted conclusion that all who fall away were never believers to begin with. That would be like saying just because some chickens lay brown eggs, all chicken lay brown eggs. The first clause while being true, is not sufficient warrant for concluding the second warrant as all chickens do not lay brown eggs. In the same way some who fall away were never believers however others who do so are actually believers who can fall away (by taking the mark) and thus turning away to follow Satan (1 Tim 5:15).

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This is where faith in the Lord, trust in the Lord and hope in the Lord plays it's part. I trust Him, alone...I have no trust in myself. I have faith in Him alone, I have no faith in myself. I have hope in Christ alone, I have no hope in myself.

There are those that have fallen away. 1 John 2:19 answers the question concerning them. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us; they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If my salvation is in my hands or the hands of man, I would have no hope. My salvation is in Christ’s hands, He is my righteousness, my hope.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

This is where faith in the Lord, trust in the Lord and hope in the Lord plays it's part. I trust Him, alone...I have no trust in myself. I have faith in Him alone, I have no faith in myself. I have hope in Christ alone, I have no hope in myself.

There are those that have fallen away. 1 John 2:19 answers the question concerning them. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us; they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If my salvation is in my hands or the hands of man, I would have no hope. My salvation is in Christ’s hands, He is my righteousness, my hope.

In Christ
Daniel

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Most Christians do not understand that a covenantal relationship requires obligations from both parties to the covenant. God is always faithful to keeps his covenant whereas humans are not always faithful. Hence this warning from the Apostle Paul: For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13

Oldmantook said:

Most Christians do not understand that a covenantal relationship requires obligations from both parties to the covenant. God is always faithful to keeps his covenant whereas humans are not always faithful. Hence this warning from the Apostle Paul: For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13

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I agree with Paul completely, if I were to offer God my works I would have no hope. My hope is in Christ alone. There is only one work that is required of man, to believe that Christ has died for all of my sins, that He was buried and on the third day He rose from the dead according to the scriptures. He was witnessed by many after His resurrection. John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent.

It's the simplicity of the Gospel that most have difficulty believing. That Christ has done it all for us. When we fully trust that He has, we live in the Spirit.

If I were to take any credit for my works or my salvation, I would be magnifying myself. Let God alone be magnified. I'm just a vile man saved by His grace and mercy. All through Christ my Lord.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

I agree with Paul completely, if I were to offer God my works I would have no hope. My hope is in Christ alone. There is only one work that is required of man, to believe that Christ has died for all of my sins, that He was buried and on the third day He rose from the dead according to the scriptures. He was witnessed by many after His resurrection. John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent.

It's the simplicity of the Gospel that most have difficulty believing. That Christ has done it all for us. When we fully trust that He has, we live in the Spirit.

If I were to take any credit for my works or my salvation, I would be magnifying myself. Let God alone be magnified. I'm just a vile man saved by His grace and mercy. All through Christ my Lord.

In Christ
Daniel

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No where in the entire Bible is obedience to God condemned as "works." Works of the OT Law are indeed condemned but works done out obedience to the Word and leading of the Holy Spirit are never condemned but instead commended and therein lies the difference.
We were created to do good works according to Eph 2:10 and we are justified by works and not by faith alone according to James 2:24. Js 2:17 states "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead."

Oldmantook said:

No where in the entire Bible is obedience to God condemned as "works." Works of the OT Law are indeed condemned but works done out obedience to the Word and leading of the Holy Spirit are never condemned but instead commended and therein lies the difference.
We were created to do good works according to Eph 2:10 and we are justified by works and not by faith alone according to James 2:24. Js 2:17 states "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead."

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No were did I say obedience to God is condemened. What I did say is that obedience to God is believing in Christ. Nor did I say we should not do good. I did say we should trust in Christ alone for our salvation, not in ourselves or man.

The pharisee and the publican, which one was justified before God? The pharisee presented God with all his good works. He even credits God for His works. But the publican pounds his chest and admits his wretchedness, asking the Lord for mercy. The publican was justified by God. God was magnified by showing him mercy.

Notice in Mat 7:21-23 the people who present their works to the Lord. Did they not prophesy in His name, cast out demons in His name and do many wonderful works in his name. Yet, the Lord casts them aside. They presented the Lord with their wonderful works. He NEVER knew them. Why, because they trusted in their works. Not in Christ alone.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

No were did I say obedience to God is condemened. What I did say is that obedience to God is believing in Christ. Nor did I say we should not do good. I did say we should trust in Christ alone for our salvation, not in ourselves or man.

The pharisee and the publican, which one was justified before God? The pharisee presented God with all his good works. He even credits God for His works. But the publican pounds his chest and admits his wretchedness, asking the Lord for mercy. The publican was justified by God. God was magnified by showing him mercy.

Notice in Mat 7:21-23 the people who present their works to the Lord. Did they not prophesy in His name, cast out demons in His name and do many wonderful works in his name. Yet, the Lord casts them aside. They presented the Lord with their wonderful works. He NEVER knew them. Why, because they trusted in their works. Not in Christ alone.

In Christ
Daniel

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You condemned works did you not? Your omission in not distinguishing between works of the OT law and works done in obedience to God is the point I made - not that you wrote obedience to God is condemned. Instead you condemned all works because you failed to distinguish between the two, which I think undermines your argument.
Your citation of the pharisee and the publican is also irrelevant because in addition to works done according to the Law, works done in our own flesh account for nothing. As I already pointed out we were created to do good works and we are justified by our works which you failed to address.
Your citation of Matt 7 is also not applicable because Jesus himself stated that he never knew them because they PRACTICED LAWLESSNESS (v.23) and not because they trusted in their own works as you claim. You shouldn't substitute your own reason when Jesus himself gives us His reason.

Oldmantook said:

Your opinion must be scripturally substantiated. Heb 5:9 clearly states that eternal life is given to all those OBEYING him - ongoing obedience - agree or disagree?
1 Tim 5:15 clearly states: "Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan." So you believe those believers who turn away from Jesus and now follow Satan are still saved and not lost? Yes or no?

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Somehow it seems you are defensive to the point that your not understanding the point I’m trying to make, because you are more interested in trying to put me down and push your POV.

That’s too bad, because I think this could have been an interesting conversation, if it was actually a two way conversation. Instead it seems you want to label me and my beliefs and I’m not going to continually defend myself against your accusations instead of you slowing down enough of to actually read and understand what I am saying.

When you want to actually have a conversation let me know.

Communicating in writing only works well when someone actually takes the time to read and understand.

I hope you consider this constructive and not negative.

Be blessed.

ToBeLoved said:

Somehow it seems you are defensive to the point that your not understanding the point I’m trying to make, because you are more interested in trying to put me down and push your POV.

That’s too bad, because I think this could have been an interesting conversation, if it was actually a two way conversation. Instead it seems you want to label me and my beliefs and I’m not going to continually defend myself against your accusations instead of you slowing down enough of to actually read and understand what I am saying.

When you want to actually have a conversation let me know.

Communicating in writing only works well when someone actually takes the time to read and understand.

I hope you consider this constructive and not negative.

Be blessed.

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I asked you to substantiate your opinion with scriptural backing which you declined to do. I asked you a simple question which you declined to answer. We both agree that the scriptures are the basis for our beliefs but when I ask you for scriptural backing you avoid doing so. Why is that?
So yes, having a conversation is not possible with you based upon your refusal to engage with my queries. The choice is yours.

These are all passages that have absolutely nothing at all to do with a person giving up, losing ... their salvation. That is NOT the topic of any of them.

Mat 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. (Not Saved) 20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. (Not Saved) 22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. (Not Saved) 23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." (Saved)


Unless your belief produces a permanent change of life, for the rest of your life, It isn’t salvation. Confessing Jesus as Lord, Master, Ruler, one who’s desires you habitually seek out and seek to live in accordance with … when it is an absolute lie, doesn’t save. Only confessing what is true saves. (Those that are saved, even if they commit sins the Gentiles consider heinous, will die physically (1co. 5) or “sleep” 1 Co. 11, but they do not lose their salvation.)


Mat 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. 45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 ''But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(Another case of, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, when you do not do as I say. Drawing near with the lips while the heart is far away isn’t a sign of salvation. It’s a sign of never having been saved.)


Mat 18:28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

(If you truly understand, AND BELIEVE the tremendous debt you owe God, and the price He bore to save your miserable life, then you aren’t going to have any problem forgiving someone for not paying you back 3 months wages. However, if you really don’t understand or believe the debt God says you owe, or that He has forgiven you for it, forgiveness of others is pretty much impossible… but they owe me! The problem isn’t lose salvation. The problem is that they never even understood it at all, and ergo, you can’t believe what you can’t even fathom. This is another one of those, If you ____, you will ____. Passages.)


Mar 4:13 And He *said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14 "The sower sows the word. 15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16 "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 "And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 "And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."

(See Commentary on Mat 13:19)


Mar 11:25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. 26 ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."] (Yep, one of the ways we know whether or not a person really has saving faith is whether or not they still believe there are people in the world who “OWE” them because of the bad things they have done. A failure to understand and believe the severity of the debt we owed God, and the tremendous price paid for us while we were yet sinners and hostile to God is not a sign of “losing” or giving up salvation. It is a sign of never having had it in the first place.)


Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, (It isn’t) the elect. 23 "But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance. (Also, this is not about salvation or losing it. It’s about how hard things will be in the end times for those who are left here. No wording whatsoever about salvation or going to hell.)


Luk 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

(Just like in the previous usages of this parable in Mat and Mark, only the last group ever was saved in the first place. The rest never lose salvation or give it up because they never had it.)


Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

(Still same issue. Does stating Jesus is Lord save everyone who says the magic words? Does going to church save you? At what point are you saved? If Jesus can say, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord if you do not do as I say?”, and, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” What does it say if you aren’t figuring out and doing as He says as a habit and way of life. What does it say if you haven’t figured out and aren’t doing His commandments as a habit and way of life. It’s not about profession. It’s not about associating with the wheat. If you are a tare, all the association in the world isn’t going to help you. Yes, there are degrees of punishment in hell (See also Romans 2) and yes, if you know more and thus don’t do it, your condemnation is greater than those that do not know and are disobedient.)



Joh 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

(The word disciple means follower. There are those that physically followed Jesus, and there were those that kept following Him no matter what. There are even disciples (Followers) of Jesus who betrayed Him and never were Christians (Like Judas.) There is no proof of perseverance ergo no proof of salvation for the former group.)


Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

(Yes, rejecting His word is proof that you never were His.)


Joh 15:4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. (How about if we phrase it this way, those who truly believe in Christ will persevere (Abide in Him) till the day they die. Or, those that go out from us do so for they were never truly of us. It all fits.)

They don't pertain continued
Joh 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. (Find me one passage that states Judas was a true Christian or had the characteristics of a true Christian, anywhere in the Old or New Testament. Problem … you can’t. There is no proof. Judas isn’t a Christian who lost or gave up his salvation. He was a non-Christian who hung around Christ for his own selfish reasons that had nothing at all to do with Jesus being his Master, Ruler, Lord … one who’s will he sought out and did as a habit and way of life.)


Act 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears. 32 "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

(Not a passage on those being saved, those being lost or those giving up their salvation, but rather a warning that people in the church will have a tendency to be seduced by false ideas and beliefs, leaving the truth of what the word of God really does say and mean. The statements are all true and they did and do happen. But they do not discuss the topic you are trying to make them fit with.)


Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

(Whether or net we really are a true Christian or not, “practicing” sin results in death. If you are a true Christian, that death is physical (1Cor. 11. “Judged now so we don’t have to be judged with the world, Sick, Weak… many sleep, 1 Cor. 5 Man sleeping with his father’s wife. “Body given up for the destruction of the flesh that His soul might be saved … Yes, if you aren’t a true Christian it also produces death, but then you will not see God’s judgment now. You will see it after your physical death. God reproves every son whom He receives. If you are without reproof, you are bastards.)


Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

(Yes, all of these are true. Yes, if you aren’t doing this and are a real Christian, you will physically get weak, sick and/or “sleep”. So you don’t have to be judged with the world. Physical death is proof that you really were a true Christian. A lack of reproof = proof you never were His child in the first place.)


Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

(Not a passage on individual salvation at all, but rather whom God is working with as “His people” at a given time period. The Jews were His, then we the Gentiles were grafted in. Because He extended us mercy because of their disobedience, now He can reextend His mercy to the Jews again … nothing at all to do with salvation in this passage.)


1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

(This is about the rewards Christians will receive after death. There is no “losing” or “giving up” of salvation in this passage. Merely a person watching all of the things his life was based on, that he did or didn’t do … showing up and either ending up being a reward, or blowing away in dust and ash. It is for “REWARDS” vs. 14, not for punishment. No one going through this judgment will be punished.)


1Co 6:8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (Yep, God is not fooled. If you are His, you will figure out and do His will as a habit and way of life. The profession doesn’t matter if the works are not in line. Again, not about losing salvation, but rather a passage on determining who really is, or is not a true Christian. Look at the fruits.)


1Co 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

(Sorry, am looking for a part that says, they lose their salvation, they give up their salvation, they were saved and now are lost … I see what it says, but it doesn’t say any of these.)


1Co 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

(Disqualified from what? Salvation? Or disqualified from preaching because you yourself aren’t living the life you are preaching to others? It’s tied in with the preaching, not with losing salvation. The goal … to win others to Christ by not only preaching, but by controlling what you do and don’t do, by ruling your life. Setting the example of what you are preaching.)


1 Corinthians 10:2,9 (Moses some of the people physically dying.) Again, physical death indicates nothing. It may actually prove that you were a real Christian because God only reproves those who are His.)

1Co 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (Again, the topic is not salvation but rather the concept that even if you are God’s people, if you blow it, God could take you home. “sleep”.)


1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. (Well there you go. Judgment NOW, in this life, by weakness, sickness and “sleeping” (Physical death while the soul is saved.) Want an example of this:


1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife… 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (Non-repentant man committing sins the Gentiles cannot even fathom, in front of the whole congregation … everyone knows. Is he sent to hell? Is he cursed? Nope. He will physically die but he still goes to heaven.)


1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (So you profess Christ. Then you never bother to even read scripture let alone hold fast to it and live by it. Does that type of belief save? Again, if it doesn’t result in a dedication to figuring out and doing exactly what God says in His word, it is merely drawing near to God with the lips while the heart is far away. This is an, are you sure you really are saved because if you are this will be true of you, passage. This is not a passage about losing salvation, because those that are lost really don’t care all that much about getting to the truth of what the word of God really says and means to start out with.)


2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- 2 for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION"—(Again, nothing about losing salvation… Vain belief, i.e. not becoming the righteousness of God in Him, i.e. why do you call Me Lord, Lord … when you do not do as I say. The point is, there is no salvation that does not produce certain things as a habit and way of life. If you are His, and you have not received God’s grace in vain, YOU WILL become the righteousness of God in Him. If not, then you never were his in the first place.)

THey don't pertain continued

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. 3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

(Again, not a passage about losing salvation, but rather about leaving the pure gospel for something else. Having erroneous beliefs does not prevent people from being Christians(Or no one could be because no one has flawless beliefs) just like having correct beliefs doesn’t guarantee salvation. Just because you state belief doesn’t mean that as a habit and way of life you are seeking to get to the truth of all that God says and means on every topic and are seeking to change your beliefs and your life to fit. Yet, that is the belief that God says over and over in His word, results in salvation, not the drawing near with the lips, saying Lord while doing as you please sort of faith.)


2Co 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? 6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. (Again, not an issue about giving up or losing salvation, but rather a look at all of the things I keep saying are always true of true Christians as a habit and way of life, and look at all the things I keep saying over and over about the religious lost. Take a test. List all the characteristics of each on each side. Do you respond like dogs and pigs to anyone sharing what they believe to be true when it contradicts your beliefs? That is a sign of the religious lost. There are about a dozen different characteristics or so on each side. If you take the test do you pass or fail. Not, did you give up your salvation somewhere down the line.)


Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. (I keep missing the part where someone is giving up or losing their salvation. I am not seeing it in ANY of the verses. It isn’t here either. Yes the writer does signify that those changing the gospel are to literally, “Go to hell!” But are you saying there is something in the text that says they were real Christians and now they are going to hell? Not seeing it. Sorry.)


Gal 4:8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain. (Ok, so what would be proof that he labored over them in vain. What would be proof that he didn’t? Where is the proof of who is, and who isn’t a Christian in the first place? Where is the proof that someone is “giving that up” or losing the salvation they had? Answer … It’s not in the text.)


Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (So is practicing these things as a habit and way of life proof that you are a Christian? Is it proof that you “were” a Christian but you gave it up? Or, is it just proof that you never really were a Christian in the first place. If you really are a Christian, and you start to practice these things, what happens? Hint 1Co. 5, 1Co. 11 “Weak, sick, sleep”.)


Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. (What happens when a Christian practices sin? 1 Co. 5, 1 Co. 11. We get judged now. Non-Christians after death.)


Eph 5:2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. 3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. (Yep. Sets out a clear demarcation line. Those habitually practicing one fall on the lost side, those habitually practicing the other fall on the saved side. Now how did someone lose or give up salvation in this passage again?)


Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

(Ok, I see things that will be true if you are saved. Who gave up their salvation here?)


Php 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, (Ok, so what does Paul’s stating that he hasn’t already achieved perfection or his glorified body yet, and persevering till the end, no longer worrying about the past have to do with losing or giving up salvation? )


Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (Yep, perseverance of the saints is PROOF that you ARE a real Christian. Yes, failure to persevere is proof that you NEVER WERE a real Christian. Yes this is repeated many times throughout the scriptures. No, it has nothing at all to do with losing or giving up your Christianity, merely a statement that if you really are you will, if you really aren’t you won’t.)


Col 3:5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— (Ok, the clear change of life … You “were” you “are”. You were one of the sons of disobedience. You have put on the new self… Ok, differences between saved and non-saved again. Again, no giving up or losing salvation.)



Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. 25 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality. (Yep, Christian or not, we will all receive the consequences for what we do. Christians will get those things now. (1Co. 11) Non-Christians after death.)



1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. (Again, I don’t have a problem with this. 1 Co 11 covers a Christian doing it. The rest of the world gets judged after death. True Christians will seek to do what the word of God says. Not “true” Christians aren’t really worried about it one way or the other. They just know Jesus is their Lord like those at the end of Mat. 7 and that’s good enough for them.)


1Ti 1:18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. (Does this sound familiar?) How about this:


1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Who gets reproved on this earth? Christians. Who sees the consequences of their choices after death? Non-Christians. Are Hymenaeus and Alexander true Christians or not? Is God reproving them as children now, or not? )

The last of the verses that have absolutely nothing at all to do with losing or giving up our salvation:


Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. (Yep, Christian or non-Christian practicing sin leads to death. 1Co5, 1Co. 11 ..)


Jas 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (Yeah, so. Where is the discussion on giving up or losing salvation?)



Jas 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (Yeah, so. Where is the discussion on giving up or losing salvation?)


Jas 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (So do Christians get judged now with regards to the consequences for their sins or after death? (1Co. 11, 1Co 5) They get sickness, weakness or sleeping now. So which group are we talking about here? Again, this doesn’t apply to the topic you picked.)


Jas 5:19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. (If they are already Christians, is their soul already saved from death? If they are non-Christians is their soul saved from death? When are our sins covered? At the moment of salvation? When is the soul saved from death? The exact same moment. This is a salvation moment, not a gee I was saved, now I am lost, now I am saved … passage.)


1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, (Completely off topic.)


Pe 2:1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. (Yep, this is another one of the “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith.” Passages. How do you know if you are a true Christian? You cry out for the pure milk of the word of God, cutting it all out straight so every piece that pertains fits with every other passage that pertains so that everything fits perfectly without any information added, subtracted or distorted, continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, holding fast to what is good/true. Is that how you feel about the word of God. DO you hunger for getting to the truth of all that He says and means for yourself and by yourself? If you have tasted the kindness of the Lord you do. Otherwise, I pray for your salvation. And again, this isn’t about losing your salvation. It's about determining if what you believe you did really is what you did.)


1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. (Huh, what topic are you on again?)


1Pe 2:20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. 21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; (Again, why is this here? Jesus Wept. Has as much to do with giving up or losing salvation as this one does.)


1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. (Ok, I had pizza last Friday. This somehow means we give up or forsake or … our salvation? Please share your drugs.)


1Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (Uh, yeah, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” Yes, if you confess a lie and you don’t figure out exactly what Christ says and means for yourself and by yourself, you are not Christians yet, regardless of their profession. These people are liars. What are they lying about, “That they have come to know Him.” They haven’t. Another clear case of believing, but not being, Christian. Not a case of being, and then not being, and then being, and then not being Christian again.)


1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. (Yep, more of the “Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith.” Passages. So, based on this passage, Christian or not? I know, lots of people profess Christianity. Lots of people believe they know him. But can they pass the tests? And no, you do and then not do these things. It’s just like forgiveness. If you really do get it. If you really do believe how many trillions of dollars of debt in sin you owe God, and how the worst thing anyone has ever done to you and your family, by comparison, is 3 months wages, then forgiving the 3 months is really not going to be an issue. Same with all of these. If you really do believe you will do these things as a habit and way of life. If you don’t, you won’t.)


1Jn 5:15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. (Ok, there is a brother/sister who is sinning. They are seeing the reproof of God in the form of weakness or sickness. They ask you to pray for them. That’s fine. There is a group we are NOT supposed to pray for … a brother or sister sinning unto death. (The “Sleep” part of the passage. Those that categorically refuse to judge themselves correctly are sinning this way. Do not pray for these people. Again, not about giving up or losing salvation. This is about praying for a brother/sister who is sinning.)


2Jn 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. (More tests to see if you are in the faith. Not whether or not you lose it then gain it, then can lose it again.)


Rev 2:4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. (This is about a church, not about individual salvation or lack thereof at all.)