One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

grafted branch said:

FYI those links worked for me on my iPhone with no warnings.

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Same. I’m on an iPhone too

grafted branch said:

FYI those links worked for me on my iPhone with no warnings.

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There have since been 3 more links added to that post. Those I'm not getting a warning about. As to the ones initially provided this is what my browser informs me of----

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grafted branch said:

Honestly I haven’t studied Barnabas or the ecf so I’ll just read what others post about their end time views.

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What is your opinion on the following?. Do you think it is possible that a false teacher can be martyred, in this case, literally beheaded, for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God? The reason I bring this up, unless I misunderstood something somewhere along the way, it seems to me that Justin Martyr was literally beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. But if he was wrong about the thousand years that makes him a false teacher, thus why I asked what I initially asked.

DavidPT said:

It seems to me, and I think I have brought this up before, if the thousand years are meaning in this age there should then be passages prior to chapter 19 describing this period of time when satan would be in the pit unable to deceive the nations. Maybe I missed a passage or two, but I haven't seen anything prior to ch 19 that would fit a period of time when satan is bound in the pit, thus prevented from deceiving the nations. He is always depicted as loosed not bound, meaning in any passages involving him prior to ch 19. Can you point out any passages prior to ch 19 where it fits with him being in the pit at the time, thus prevented from deceiving the nations? Wouldn't something like that prove Amil rather than Premil?

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Amils have showed you different Scriptures over the years that prove this. There are various Scriptures, especially in Revelation, that teach that Satan, the beast and his demons find themselves in the abyss during the intra-Advent period through Christ’s historic victory over the kingdom of darkness. These also testify the fact that this wicked kingdom will be released from their restraint in the abyss prior to the end for a final assault upon the people of God. This is essentially the devils last throw. The fate of Satan, the beast, his demons and the wicked are carefully tied together in their agenda, activity and doom.

Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos]. And he opened the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos]; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key just before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that Satan and his demons are in the pit long before the second coming, and are released for a season before the end to do their final damage.

We should carefully note a few things here which many commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” exercised direct authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

Revelation 9:11 gives us more detail confirming that we are looking at the restrained kingdom of darkness: “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abyss [Gr. abussos], whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together, we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means 'king with a domain'. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for 'kingdom' is the Greek word basileia denoting 'sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion'. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king - a head, (2) a domain to rule over - subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration - ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which "the destroyer" rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendor. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil's kingdom.

Who is this king (or destroyer) that currently reigns over "the bottomless pit" or abyss? We know from the description given of this king that we are looking at an angel. In fact, the king is called: "the angel of the abyss." There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that dark realm?

Strong's Concordance gives us help, describing Apollyon (623) as "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong's 622) we find it means "to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively." The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There seems little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church - the devil.

Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan and his minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.

We cannot help but conclude, the angel (or star) that descends in Revelation 9:1-3 and takes immediate authority over Satan (Abaddon / Apollyon) and his angels (symbolic represented in this passage as locust/scorpion-type creatures), who in turn are presently in the abyss realm. The one major difficulty for Premils here is that this passage expressly locates Satan and his minions in the abyss prior to the coming of the Lord, as Amillennialism believes and not after that as Premillennialism mistakenly argues.

This reading also significantly shows that Satan is currently subject to the authority of another angel (star). This angel obviously is not a fellow fallen angel, as Satan is undisputed king of that realm; it must therefore be an angel from the kingdom of God. Even though Satan is presently king over the abyss, he is currently restrained in that condition. Satan is restricted to the boundaries of the abyss - which is the spiritual abode of the kingdom of darkness. There is another angel that holds the key over.

DavidPT said:

What is your opinion on the following?. Do you think it is possible that a false teacher can be martyred, in this case, literally beheaded, for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God? The reason I bring this up, unless I misunderstood something somewhere along the way, it seems to me that Justin Martyr was literally beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. But if he was wrong about the thousand years that makes him a false teacher, thus why I asked what I initially asked.

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I think every believer has a wrong interpretation somewhere in the scripture. So in a sense I would say when a true believer teaches their false interpretation they are a “false teacher”. However since no one is perfect I would define a “false teacher “ as someone who truly knows they have an incorrect interpretation an yet they still teach it to others.

As far as Justin Martyr is concerned, God knows and he is the judge of whether Justin Martyr was a false teacher or not.

DavidPT said:

There have since been 3 more links added to that post. Those I'm not getting a warning about. As to the ones initially provided this is what my browser informs me of----

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Like I said earlier; those warnings are mostly useless. They even have the same warning for some US .gov websites

Just The Facts said:

My point remains. It was not what Jesus the Apostles the Saints or the early Church Fathers taught.

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jeffweedaman said:

Hello.
Where did Jesus and the Apostles teach something future?
Where did Jesus and the Apostles not teach it?
Can you throw some scriptures my way first?

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jgr said:

Describe how Genesis 3:15, Scripture's first prophecy, was fulfilled literally.

With supporting Scripture, of course.

But if you agree that this, the very first prophecy of Scripture, is fulfilled spiritually rather than literally, would you not also agree that with this precedent there is other prophecy that is fulfilled spiritually as well?

There is unquestionably much literally fulfilled prophecy. But Genesis 3:15 sets a precedent demonstrating the reality that spiritual fulfillment has no less legitimacy than literal fulfillment.

The challenge is to exercise the requisite wisdom and discernment necessary to determine when each is applicable.

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First, I said that if it's using an animal to describe a person that is by very nature a symbol.
Satan is an angel, not actually a snake, although Seraphim I have heard means "fiery serpent" before, so maybe some connection to that, the form of a fiery serpent/dragon just may be one of the physical forms Satan took literally.

Second, I actually don't discount the possibility of a literal fulfillment of Jesus stepping on Satan's head though that would most likely happen after the second coming. Not something I assume will literally happen, but it could literally happen.
I wouldn't be surprised by any literal fullfillment.

But usually comparing human beings or angels to wild animals is symbollic as far as we know.

The difference is, you want to allegorize scripture as a FIRST response. Rather than be open to literal fulfillment.
I lean towards literal unless the bible itself explains that it's a symbol and then explains the meaning of the symbol, as has been done in the Old Testament. with Jeremiah when doing things that the Lord commanded to the symbol of the potter and his vessels, God explained what it meant. or the beasts in Daniel and Revelation, angels explained what they mean
But if there is no explanation of a symbol, and there is no previous use of that specific symbol as a symbol that was explained.. I don't jump to "this is a symbol" right away and try to discern its meaning myself.
I lean towards literal and meditate how might the Lord do this.

again to some degree this goes to what people did with the prophecies involving Israel after the diaspora happened.
People didn't think you could literally fulfill prophecies about Israel anymore, because Israel was gone, so they made it allegory.
Now even past the return of israel to the land, many people still stick with traditions of making those prophecies allegorical and to the Church rather than Israel, in fact that's the case for a lot of Ammillennialists.

DavidPT said:

Most Amils do have the thousand years representing an actual time period, except that they don't think the time period involved involves a literal thousand years. If they have the thousand years beginning at the cross then ending when satan's season little begins, and let's say that involves 2000 years, that's an actual time period isn't it? I'm just trying to be fair here, regardless that I'm not Amil.

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Early amillennialists thought it was a literal 1000 years, but after 1100 or so that became abstracted too.

Jamdoc said:

First, I said that if it's using an animal to describe a person that is by very nature a symbol.
Satan is an angel, not actually a snake, although Seraphim I have heard means "fiery serpent" before, so maybe some connection to that, the form of a fiery serpent/dragon just may be one of the physical forms Satan took literally.

Second, I actually don't discount the possibility of a literal fulfillment of Jesus stepping on Satan's head though that would most likely happen after the second coming. Not something I assume will literally happen, but it could literally happen.
I wouldn't be surprised by any literal fullfillment.

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Where are you getting "Satan" from?

The literal word "Satan" does not literally appear in the prophecy, and thus fails the test of literality.

Any reference to "Satan" in Genesis 3:15 is a reference which necessitates spiritual, not literal, understanding.

If some believe the Millennium starts at the Lords second coming , then the only way to resolve this matter is fix our eyes on what Jesus ( and the Apostles ) said about his coming , and then believe the obvious....right?? Its that simple.

I know Why none of you Premills have not attempted this approach.

jgr said:

Where are you getting "Satan" from?

The literal word "Satan" does not literally appear in the prophecy, and thus fails the test of literality.

Any reference to "Satan" in Genesis 3:15 is a reference which necessitates spiritual, not literal, understanding.

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Not true.

Revelation 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

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The bible explains its own symbols. You should never be left guessing what a symbol means or if something is a symbol at all.

jeffweedaman said:

If some believe the Millennium starts at the Lords second coming , then the only way to resolve this matter is fix our eyes on what Jesus ( and the Apostles ) said about his coming , and then believe the obvious....right?? Its that simple.

I know Why none of you Premills have not attempted this approach.

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What specifically are you talking about? I am watching for signs given by Jesus preceding His second coming. I see things lining up for that to happen as we speak.

Jamdoc said:

What specifically are you talking about?

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Hi Jamdoc
How do you see the aftermath of Jesus own teaching regarding his own coming? What did he allude to?
I am talking about how Jesus expressed his second coming and let that sink in.

Whatever it may be ...we should not depart from it in favor of how we may see other scripture that would clearly contradict how he expressed it.

jeffweedaman said:

Hi Jamdoc
How do you see the aftermath of Jesus own teaching regarding his own coming? What did he allude to?
I am talking about how Jesus expressed his second coming and let that sink in.

Whatever it may be ...we should not depart from it in favor of how we may see other scripture that would clearly contradict how he expressed it.

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You're being vague.
I asked for specifics.

jeffweedaman said:

If some believe the Millennium starts at the Lords second coming , then the only way to resolve this matter is fix our eyes on what Jesus ( and the Apostles ) said about his coming , and then believe the obvious....right?? Its that simple.

I know Why none of you Premills have not attempted this approach.

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Maybe you should take your own advice?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel

Do you think any of this involves His 2nd coming? If yes, do you think it is meaning a time before the great white throne judgment, or a time post the great white throne judgment? How much time do you see this involving if you agree it involves His 2nd coming? Hope you are not going to propose something ludicrous like other Amils have proposed, that this only involves less than 24 hours that they sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Why even bother at all with sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel, if that is all of the time it involves, less than 24 hours?

Jamdoc said:

Early amillennialists thought it was a literal 1000 years, but after 1100 or so that became abstracted too.

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I think it would be better to furnish us with hard evidence instead of mere opinion.

Jamdoc said:

You're being vague.
I asked for specifics.

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Nothing more specific than the Lords own word on the matter.

jeffweedaman said:

Nothing more specific than the Lords own word on the matter.

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Which words
there are 4 gospels and the book of Revelation full of them, along with preincarnation appearances in the Old Testament.
again you're being vague.
It's like saying "so what do you think about the thing?" "what thing?" "you know, the thing"

Jamdoc said:

Not true.

Revelation 12:9


The bible explains its own symbols. You should never be left guessing what a symbol means or if something is a symbol at all.

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Thanks for the confirmation of what I've just said.

Unless one knew the spiritual truth of Revelation 12:9, one would not know that Satan was present in Genesis 3:15.

Because the literal word "Satan" does not literally appear therein.