One or Three Gods?

[darknova]

Hi,

From the title you have probably guessed that this is about the Trinity and Incarnation.

So my question is, can you be Christian if you don't believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit are God?

In some ways I understand the Trinity if I think of it in a certain way: That the Father, Jesus the Son and Holy Spirit are different expressions or modes or relations to one God. I am unsure whether that counts as the Trinity though.

Also when ever I used to pray or worship it would always be naturally directed to the Father, rather than the Son or the Spirit. If it was to do with Salvation I might direct praise to Jesus, or if it was to do with the gifts of the Spirit it would be directed to the Father or the Spirit, but till the Father seems the most natural understanding of God.

I assume it would be wholly unchristian to think Jesus to be a prophet of God and the Holy Spirit to be the action of God in the world?

Is it right to worship a human? In what sense can he be God? Because he is the fullest expression of God in human form? What is it that makes God, God?

I hope this makes sense,

Darknova

 

[drich0150]

Hi,
So my question is, can you be Christian if you don't believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit are God?

Scripturally no you can not.
Religiously however you will find a group somewhere that believe themselves to be, or they simply call them selves "christian" even if they do not believe these truths.

In some ways I understand the Trinity if I think of it in a certain way: That the Father, Jesus the Son and Holy Spirit are different expressions or modes or relations to one God. I am unsure whether that counts as the Trinity though.

Thankfully we do not have to have a complete understanding of all aspects of the relationship The Father has with the Son and the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. We just have to accept that we worship a triune God. (One God 3 parts)

Also when ever I used to pray or worship it would always be naturally directed to the Father, rather than the Son or the Spirit. If it was to do with Salvation I might direct praise to Jesus, or if it was to do with the gifts of the Spirit it would be directed to the Father or the Spirit, but till the Father seems the most natural understanding of God.

Your not judged on a complete comprehension of God just your faithfulness to your specific understanding of God. Meaning if you feel most comfortable praying to the Father right now then do so. But as you grow do not be faithful to your practices just for the sake of tradition. Otherwise you would not be faithful to your understanding of God.

I assume it would be wholly unchristian to think Jesus to be a prophet of God and the Holy Spirit to be the action of God in the world?

Yes

Is it right to worship a human?

That is why we worship the Son of God.

In what sense can he be God?

In what sense is He not God?

Because he is the fullest expression of God in human form?

Yes, if god could not take human form would He still be God?

What is it that makes God, God?

What makes the Creator a Creator?
It is the ability to create. What makes God, God is the mastery over His creation. Christ exhibited this mastery in His miracles and in His ability to conquer death, His own and others.

 

[darknova]

Scripturally no you can not.
Religiously however you will find a group somewhere that believe themselves to be, or they simply call them selves "christian" even if they do not believe these truths.

Ok

Thankfully we do not have to have a complete understanding of all aspects of the relationship The Father has with the Son and the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. We just have to accept that we worship a triune God. (One God 3 parts)

By God in 3 parts do you mean God is made known to us in three ways or that God literally 3 different persons? The second seems quite arbitrary for the number to be 3. Do you think it is Christian to think there is one God but made known in 3 ways?

Your not judged on a complete comprehension of God just your faithfulness to your specific understanding of God. Meaning if you feel most comfortable praying to the Father right now then do so. But as you grow do not be faithful to your practices just for the sake of tradition. Otherwise you would not be faithful to your understanding of God.

That is why we worship the Son of God.

Who is a human though

In what sense is He not God?

Well it depends on what you think makes God, God. The human Jesus can be morally like God, but maybe not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Is He God because He is the same as God in personality then?

Yes, if god could not take human form would He still be God?

I don't know. Can God take the form of a rock and still be God? Of course it could be argued against that, that we are in God's image and so God can more easily be translated into human form than rock form, maybe?

What makes the Creator a Creator?
It is the ability to create. What makes God, God is the mastery over His creation. Christ exhibited this mastery in His miracles and in His ability to conquer death, His own and others.

So it is omnipotence alone which makes God, God?

 

[Bro_Sam]

Hi,

From the title you have probably guessed that this is about the Trinity and Incarnation.

So my question is, can you be Christian if you don't believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit are God?

Jesus answered this question in John 8:24 - "if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

I assume it would be wholly unchristian to think Jesus to be a prophet of God and the Holy Spirit to be the action of God in the world?

Yes. It would be grossly heretical.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Scripturally no you can not.
Religiously however you will find a group somewhere that believe themselves to be, or they simply call them selves "christian" even if they do not believe these truths.

Correct. Biblically, no. Culturally or socially, yes.

The problem is that we've so badly misdefined what it is to be a Christian that I doubt most people would recognize the Biblical description of a Christian, his characteristics, or his role in the church.

The rules here on ChristianForums say that you can believe anything you want, no matter how heretical, and as long as you call yourself a Christian, you're considered a Christian.

 

[darknova]

Jesus answered this question in John 8:24 - "if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

That does actually seems to be quite a strong passage and the bit surrounding it.

Still I assume this doesn't apply to those before Jesus? How about those who lived hundreds of miles away when Jesus died and to who the gospel has never reached? Or what if you have heard of Jesus, but just as some mythical guy some crazy Christians believe in?

Isn't there more to salvation than acceptance of knowledge?

 

[Bro_Sam]

That does actually seems to be quite a strong passage and the bit surrounding it.

Still I assume this doesn't apply to those before Jesus?[

How would it? Jesus had not yet come when they lived.

How about those who lived hundreds of miles away when Jesus died and to who the gospel has never reached?

Or what if you have heard of Jesus, but just as some mythical guy some crazy Christians believe in?

Jesus is talking about those who deny His deity, not those who don't know any better.

 

[a_ntv]

It is not enogh that we believe that Jesus is our Lord and our God, but we shall also believe that He is risen from the death ( And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; )

 

[Harry3142]

Darknova-

Jesus Christ reigns now, but that reign will end:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

So will Jesus Christ be demoted? That viewpoint shows the tendency of us to see God the Father as a Zeuslike being sitting on a throne. But God is not a corporeal being:

"God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth." (The Gospel of St. John 4:24,NIV)

There is another passage where Jesus gives us the sternest warning found in Scripture, and it, too, concerns a spirit:

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 12:30-32,NIV)

When we read the words 'son' and 'father', what are we seeing? We're seeing titles. The same male can be a father, a son, an uncle, and still have a myriad other titles. But what do we see when we read the words 'Holy Spirit'. We see a very specific being that can neither be duplicated nor replaced.

Jesus himself told us that the Father is a spirit. He also warned us in stern language that we were to show utmost respect when speaking of the Holy Spirit. St. Paul wrote that Jesus' reign will end. But he will not be demoted; he will be enfolded. And the Person who will enfold him is the same Person whom Jesus identified as a spirit rather than as a corporeal being. So instead of God the Father's having a seperate entity that we call 'The Holy Spirit', it is in actuality the Holy Spirit that is using the title of 'father' so that we can better comprehend what he is saying and doing.

 

[drich0150]

Ok
By God in 3 parts do you mean God is made known to us in three ways or that God literally 3 different persons? The second seems quite arbitrary for the number to be 3. Do you think it is Christian to think there is one God but made known in 3 ways?

God is a title, and not a Name as in God the Father God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. All Three aspects of God are indeed equally God.

Every object in creation attests to how a trinity makes one object or in this case one God. In that every object has length, width, and Height. All three dimensions need to be present in order for an object to exist. The same can be said to how 3 distinct aspects or personalities of God equal one, not three gods.

Who is a human though

Who is God. If one is God in a human body in your estimation how does he cease being God?

Well it depends on what you think makes God, God. The human Jesus can be morally like God, but maybe not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Is He God because He is the same as God in personality then?

Omnipotent, Omnipresent, nor Omniscient are not terms found in scripture. which means no matter how well intentioned, they are simply "religious" terms we have come up with to describe the infinite nature of God.
but here in lies the problem. these words are finite, with finite definitions and parameters that are used to describe an infinite being. Your question well intentioned or not challenges the definition of these words, but in no way addresses the infinite nature of God.

If you noticed when i gave my first response I did not use any of the omni words you are trying to force into my account or definition. My answer may be simple, but it is complete in that what makes God, God is the control He excises over creation. If you put this control in a rock then effectively you have God in rock form. likewise if God places Himself in a man you have God in Man form. You are not worshiping man you are worshiping God.

To not worship God in any form He takes is to not worship the Deity of God. Or it is to not recognize the infinite nature of God or his ability to exercise control over creation.

 

[drich0150]

Correct. Biblically, no. Culturally or socially, yes.

The problem is that we've so badly misdefined what it is to be a Christian that I doubt most people would recognize the Biblical description of a Christian, his characteristics, or his role in the church.

The rules here on ChristianForums say that you can believe anything you want, no matter how heretical, and as long as you call yourself a Christian, you're considered a Christian.

technically you can be "christian" and not be a member of the body of Christ. That's why we were told the parables about the ten virgins, and why we were warned about the differences between the wheat and weeds, wheat and chaff, sheep and goats... Why would you want or expect anything different?

Since we are told to expect these things by Christ lets make the effort in making that segregation more apparent for all, and then with great care and respect help those that are negatively effected, see the lines of division more clearly. while realizing ourselves that Pharisees (Legalist) are also "negatively affected" by those lines of segregation as well.

 

[razeontherock]

Nobody's quoted this yet?

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD (Mark 12:29, Jesus directly quoting Deut 6:4)

 

[Bro_Sam]

technically you can be "christian" and not be a member of the body of Christ. That's why we were told the parables about the ten virgins, and why we were warned about the differences between the wheat and weeds, wheat and chaff, sheep and goats... Why would you want or expect anything different?

Actually, they weren't Christians. That's why Christ differentiates them from wheat.

 

[drich0150]

If you note i used the lower case "c" this describes a "spiritually based" social group or club rather than members of the body of Christ/The true Church. Which points back to my original statement. You can be a "christian" just not a biblically based member of the body or apart of The True Church. this is the distinction I belive "we" need to make with great care.

 

[Blue Man]

Hi,

From the title you have probably guessed that this is about the Trinity and Incarnation.

So my question is, can you be Christian if you don't believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit are God?

In some ways I understand the Trinity if I think of it in a certain way: That the Father, Jesus the Son and Holy Spirit are different expressions or modes or relations to one God. I am unsure whether that counts as the Trinity though.

Also when ever I used to pray or worship it would always be naturally directed to the Father, rather than the Son or the Spirit. If it was to do with Salvation I might direct praise to Jesus, or if it was to do with the gifts of the Spirit it would be directed to the Father or the Spirit, but till the Father seems the most natural understanding of God.

I assume it would be wholly unchristian to think Jesus to be a prophet of God and the Holy Spirit to be the action of God in the world?

Is it right to worship a human? In what sense can he be God? Because he is the fullest expression of God in human form? What is it that makes God, God?

I hope this makes sense,

Darknova

There is no mention of the trinity in the bible. Jesus often refers to heaven as his kingdom, but he does't claim to be god himself. In fact, there are also quotes that god cannot be seen, so if they're the same person, that'd be a little impossible.

My assumption is that it's an attempt by the Catholic church to glorify Jesus.

 

[drich0150]

There is no mention of the trinity in the bible. Jesus often refers to heaven as his kingdom, but he does't claim to be god himself. In fact, there are also quotes that god cannot be seen, so if they're the same person, that'd be a little impossible.

My assumption is that it's an attempt by the Catholic church to glorify Jesus.

Jesus did indeed claim to be God, Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church—the church of God—with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ’Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

 

[drich0150]

double post

 

[Blue Man]

Jesus did indeed claim to be God, Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason. “… you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. Notice that Jesus does not deny His claim to be God. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” The response of the Jews who heard this statement was to take up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded them to do (Leviticus 24:15).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church—the church of God—with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son He says, ’Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?

Well I guess I've been proven wrong. The whole John 10:30 is pretty clear. It could very well have been figurative though.

After he asked why he was getting stoned, this was said:

"33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

I'm not really sure what that means.

 

[Bro_Sam]

n/t

 

[drich0150]

Well I guess I've been proven wrong. The whole John 10:30 is pretty clear. It could very well have been figurative though.

After he asked why he was getting stoned, this was said:

"33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, Majesty thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

I'm not really sure what that means.

There are two different words being translated as God/gods. one refers to God the supreme being (The Father Son and Spirit.) The other with the lower case "g" (gods) refers to a lord or master. This word can even refer to a person's authority given to them by God. Like a chief priest or rabbi.

In John 30:36 Christ is actually quoting Psalms 82:
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[b]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

He speaks of the authority given to them by God, but at the same time grounds them be saying even though you have been given the authority of God to govern his people, you yourselves will be Judged by me/God the Son when you die.