One Jesus, two testimonies?

[Ohioprof]

No you don't understand it.

You must experience two natures yourself before you can understand it.

Some things are only explained by experience, and this is one of them.

I wish you well in your experiences.

 

[MercyBurst]

I try to follow the teachings of Jesus, who was a great teacher. I try to understand life and our place in the world using the best evidence I can find. I realize that my knowledge, like all human knowledge, is only partial.

Jesus said ye must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, but you say you don't believe this.

 

[Ohioprof]

I need to head out and take my daughter to her Kindermusik class. I went to her school and ate lunch with her today. She was thrilled to have her mommy at school!

Good evening, all. Be well.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I think so.

You don't really know. Let me help you out: Your beliefs are not based on God's truth at all.

 

[MercyBurst]

Well, so much for what Jesus said about getting saved. Better luck another day huh?

 

[Melethiel]

This forum is not for personal inquisitions. Get back on topic or the thread will be shut down.

 

[Zaac]

I am one of God's people. Yet you denigrate me and my beliefs, simply because I disagree with you.

You're one of His creation. His people trust Him and keep His commands.

You constantly give testimony to neither.

I'm not one to pat you on your back and join hands with you while you spew the very words that will lead others to death and destruction.

So if you feel denigrated about your anti-Christ beliefs, then rightfully so.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am one of God's people. Yet you denigrate me and my beliefs, simply because I disagree with you.

Only those who accept God's only provision for salvation, His Son, Jesus, are privileged to be called the people of God.

 

[Zaac]

Only those who accept God's only provision for salvation, His Son, Jesus, are privileged to be called the people of God.

Now don't yall get mad and think that other quote was my quote. I just fixed it so that it reflects the person who said it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Now don't yall get mad and think that other quote was my quote. I just fixed it so that it reflects the person who said it.

There ya go, sweetie! I followed suit.

 

[MercyBurst]

The topic of this thread is spiritual life in Christ, but it seems nobody wants to talk about this.

One Jesus, and two completely opposite testimonies -- Is there any way Jesus can support both of them? I don't think the Holy Spirit of God, which is in EVERY BELIEVER, can contradict itself.

Who doesn't agree?

Why don't we call on the Holy Spirit through personal testimony?

The testimonies can be evaluated, and each person can draw their own conclusions.

I've presented three of them already, and will search for more of them. Can anyone else help me do this?

 

[MercyBurst]

Was Paul's choice of celibacy harmed by the institution of marriage? Or was the fact that it was his choive, in order to benefit his preaching of the Gospel a separate blessing? I would suggest that you re-read 1 corinthians 7 again.

I've read it. He remained celibate for the preaching of the gospel. However, he was also celibate before he became a christian.

If someone gay or straight chooses to live a celibate life for the sake of the gospel, they are not harmed by those who choose the path of marriage and family.

ok

On the other hand, if someone "sacrifices" his happiness because he mistakenly believes that it would be sinful to seek a spouse of the same sex, then the situation is like the ones Paul discusses concerning Sabbath laws and kosher meat.

If there were no ex-gays, you'd have a point about mistaken beliefs, but Paul said, in 1 Cor 6:11 "and such were some of you, and now you are washed." Their sacrifice is obviously huge, and I feel that they are very earnestly seeking God's spirit. It isn't just a matter of kosher frankfurters. There is other food people can eat. There is no substitute for their sacrifice of celibacy except the Holy Spirit itself, and they remain that way.

Because as long as a person believes an action to be sinful, it would be a sin to commit that action despite the concerns, even if objectively it is not sinful.

Yes.

The rest of the body of christ is called on not to "flaunt" their freedom in front of the weak brother. In the case of meat, one should not eat non-kosher in front of them.

If their conscience was offended, I would have to agree with you.

But leaving them in their weak and confused state is not right either.

Knowledge does not necessarily change that. Paul questioned if any of us really has more knowledge than the other, and that thinking you know more than a weaker brother is somewhat delusional. That brother might actually be stronger than you are in other areas of spiritual life. Some of the very best personal testimonies come from new-born believers for example.

Every time he brought the subject up, Paul emphasized our freedom in Christ before he admonished becoming a stumbling-block to the weaker brother, even knowing that thw "weaker brothers" would be reading the letter as well. And he admonished Peter for going too far in his attempt not to offend the Jewish-born christians in Antioch

But Paul said he would NEVER eat meat again if it caused his brother to stumble.

Personally I believe gay sex is sin by reading the scriptures, but that is my opinion, and yours might be different.

On the otherhand we can both agree (I hope) that the Holy Spirit can not support two opposing testimonies where weakness is the victim.

 

[shepsgirl]

The topic of this thread is spiritual life in Christ, but it seems nobody wants to talk about this.

One Jesus, and two completely opposite testimonies -- Is there any way Jesus can support both of them? I don't think the Holy Spirit of God, which is in EVERY BELIEVER, can contradict itself.

Who doesn't agree?

Why don't we call on the Holy Spirit through personal testimony?

The testimonies can be evaluated, and each person can draw their own conclusions.

I've presented three of them already, and will search for more of them. Can anyone else help me do this?

I'll try. Before I became a Christian, I wasn't gay, but I liked yaoi (men/men). It started with just relationships between men and proceeded to more hardcore stuff. I knew it was wrong, I knew God disapproved of it (there wasn't even a question in my mind whether I was sinning), I just didn't care. I even told God that I thought that this was better than the way he meant it to be. It took over my mind; it was all I could think of. How to feed that addiction. That's what the devil does, takes things that he knows are bad and uses it to twist a person's minds (he doesn't care whether people believe in him or not, actually that is what he wants; if you say he doesn't exist, you are calling God a liar. That makes satan happy.) When I started feeling God drawing me to Him, I fought Him for several miserable weeks. I did not want to give it up. When I finally did accept Jesus into my heart, I had to give it up. My first several months as a Christian were rough. There wasn't a day that went by that the devil didn't throw it in my face; I was a nervous wreck. I can understand what you mean about two natures. It's absolutely true. If someone says they are a Christian, but has never experienced that feeling, then something is wrong. When I became a Christian I still liked those things and still wanted to be able to do what I did before I became a Christian, but I knew with out a doubt that I couldn't; it would be a sin. The Lord in His mercy helped me get through those times (I wouldn't want to live through that again; thank the Lord I don't have to) It has been a year since, and I have become close to God. I don't have that problem as much; I still have thoughts about it, but it's fleeting. It is only through Jesus, and His shed blood, that I was able to overcome and have a relationship with Him.

 

[OllieFranz]

I've read it. He remained celibate for the preaching of the gospel. However, he was also celibate before he became a christian.

The Bible neither confirms nor contradicts this statement, so there is no way of knowing whether it is true. But even if it is true, that does not mean that his reason for celibacy before conversion was a homosexual attraction.

If there were no ex-gays, you'd have a point about mistaken beliefs, but Paul said, in 1 Cor 6:11 "and such were some of you, and now you are washed." Their sacrifice is obviously huge, and I feel that they are very earnestly seeking God's spirit. It isn't just a matter of kosher frankfurters. There is other food people can eat. There is no substitute for their sacrifice of celibacy except the Holy Spirit itself, and they remain that way.

[BIBLE]1 Corinthians 6:9-11[/BIBLE]

Paul does not single out any sin of these sinners as greater, or needing special scrutiny, so what makes arsenokoitai so different from thieves, idolators or extortionists?

While I agree that arsenokoitai probably refers back to Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, and I further agree that asking someone to choose celbacy is, unless the Holy Spirit gives them a gift for it, asking a great sacrifice, I don't see how the rest of your point applies.

If the Holy Spirit calls them to a life of celibacy, it also gives them a special blessing to live that life. Especially since the Spirit-filled celibate lifestyle is specifically intended to allow the person to be more fully dedicated to the Gospel. He does not feel it to be a sacrifice.

But if a person is living sacrificing himself in celibacy, not because of a calling by the Holy Spirit, but because his fellow Christians claim that he cannot serve Jesus in a marriage with a spouse of the same sex, then he is indeed making a huge sacrifice.

As long as he continues to believe that such a relationship is wrong, it would be sinful for him to persue such a relationship. He would be caught in an intolerable situation. That is why he needs to hear about the freedom that is his through Jesus and His Sacrifice of Atonement.

If their conscience was offended, I would have to agree with you.

If he believes it to be sin, and sees himself beset by the temptations to that "sin," how could his conscience not be offended?

Knowledge does not necessarily change that. Paul questioned if any of us really has more knowledge than the other, and that thinking you know more than a weaker brother is somewhat delusional. That brother might actually be stronger than you are in other areas of spiritual life. Some of the very best personal testimonies come from new-born believers for example.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. If you are saying that we are all fallible in our understanding of the Gospel, I agree. That is precisely why we are not to judge the actions of other Christians (Matt 7/James 4) As long as they are Walking in Christ in all other areas of their life, an action we disagree with, provided that it does neither hurts anyone else, nor is something that they have aknowledged to be sinful, is between them and God.

If it is harmful, or if they acknowlege its sinfulness, there are Biblical proceedures for correcting a brother.

But Paul said he would NEVER eat meat again if it caused his brother to stumble.

Similarly, if I were in a same-sex marital relationship, and it somehow caused a weaker brother to stumble, I would give up that relationship.

But I am not in a same-sex relationship, and every Christian (and for that matter every non-Christian) I know who is, does nothing in public that would cause a brother to stumble

Personally I believe gay sex is sin by reading the scriptures, but that is my opinion, and yours might be different.

If we may agree to disagree on that point, it will make both our lives a lot easier.

On the otherhand we can both agree (I hope) that the Holy Spirit can not support two opposing testimonies where weakness is the victim.

There are more than two tesitmonies on the subject. Most, while different, are compatible, since not all are called for the same purpose.

There is the testimony of the married cross-sex couple

There is the testimony of the holy celibate.

There is the testimony of the young not-yet-married (but patient and hopeful) celibate.

These are all different and yet compatible.

The next two, however are less compatible.

There is the testimony of the married same-sex couple, which is very similar to that of the cross-sex couple.

And there is the testimony of the celibate struggling against desires he has learned to see as sinful and unnatural. Unlike the holy celibate, his desires have not been diminished by the blessing of the Holy Spirit. Unlike the young and hopeful celibate it is for him not just a matter of patience until his desires are fulfilled in God's time. They are burning without relief.

Without the calling of holy celibacy, the sexual urges are very powerful and need to be channeled into lawful relationships. That is why it is better to marry than to burn. If it is better for heterosexuals to marry than to burn, why should it not be better for homosexuals to marry than to burn?

 

[Brieuse]

The topic of this thread is spiritual life in Christ, but it seems nobody wants to talk about this.

One Jesus, and two completely opposite testimonies -- Is there any way Jesus can support both of them? I don't think the Holy Spirit of God, which is in EVERY BELIEVER, can contradict itself.

Who doesn't agree?

Why don't we call on the Holy Spirit through personal testimony?

The testimonies can be evaluated, and each person can draw their own conclusions.

I've presented three of them already, and will search for more of them. Can anyone else help me do this?

Interesting, so you now want to judge everybody on how spiritual they are?

I have been privileged to be able to pray to my saviour. He's always answered my prayers, except one. Then I asked Him why He was not answering that prayer, of which I received the answer the next day. I don't know why I didn't ask Him sooner.

 

[GenemZ]

Interesting, so you now want to judge everybody on how spiritual they are?

I do not believe that was what she was getting at. Not everyone saved is walking in the Spirit. You are either spiritual, or you are not. There is not degrees of spirituality....

Yet, spirituality when maintained by following 1 John 1:9, leads to maturity in understanding God Word in deeper ways.

2 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)
"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."
​

We are no less spiritual when we are first saved and Spirit filled, than after walking in the Lord for many years. Spirituality is the means to a goal. That goal is to find maturity in UNDERSTANDING. That is where inequality exists between believers.

She was saying that both parties can not be functioning in the Holy Spirit filling, if both have opposing views.

For the Spirit will not lead someone into a contradiction of the Truth. Therefore; one can not be Spirit filled. Or, both are not Spirit filled. But? Both can not be Spirit filled and be lead to believe what is contradictory to one another.

I have been privileged to be able to pray to my saviour. He's always answered my prayers, except one. Then I asked Him why He was not answering that prayer, of which I received the answer the next day. I don't know why I didn't ask Him sooner.

God takes us through phases in our growth. I went through a phase where unusual and many prayers were being answered. Once that was established as reality, and I knew God answers prayer... then he took me through a phase of not seeing prayers answered like before.

For I needed to learn to trust in Him for Who He is. Not to trust solely in seeing immediate results which could lead to faith by sight... which is no longer faith! ... by seeing results all the time to prayer. And, not all prayers are according to his will and will not be answered.

Yet, he did not stop answering prayer. He sometimes had to tap me on the shoulder to make me realized that what just happened was an answer to a prayer I had made some time before, and forgot about when I did not see immediate results.

Sometimes I find a simple desire which is unspoken was seen as a prayer as well. It was unspoken because I did not know how to pray for something in particular. Yet, when the answer came, I was able to see how I should have prayed.


Grace and peace brother, GeneZ

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Olliefranz,

The Bible neither confirms nor contradicts this statement, so there is no way of knowing whether it is true. But even if it is true, that does not mean that his reason for celibacy before conversion was a homosexual attraction.

Ah but that’s just one opinion, others believe the Bible confirms it and so we know its true. The point Mercyburst is making is that both cant be true as they are opposites.

While I agree that arsenokoitai probably refers back to Leviticus 18:22 and

20:13, and I further agree that asking someone to choose celbacy is, unless the Holy Spirit gives them a gift for it, asking a great sacrifice, I don't see how the rest of your point applies.

If the Holy Spirit calls them to a life of celibacy, it also gives them a special blessing to live that life. Especially since the Spirit-filled celibate lifestyle is specifically intended to allow the person to be more fully dedicated to the Gospel. He does not feel it to be a sacrifice.

But what is the Holy Spirit going to call people to if not marriage or celibacy?

But if a person is living sacrificing himself in celibacy, not because of a calling by the Holy Spirit, but because his fellow Christians claim that he cannot serve Jesus in a marriage with a spouse of the same sex, then he is indeed making a huge sacrifice.

well yes and know, God’s love is that Jesus gave up everything for us, that’s the cost we have been bought for, many Christians in the world are in danger of their lives because of their faith, although celibacy is quite a sacrifice its no more than any other sin someone struggles to give up.

 

[MercyBurst]

I'll try. Before I became a Christian, I wasn't gay, but I liked yaoi (men/men). It started with just relationships between men and proceeded to more hardcore stuff. I knew it was wrong, I knew God disapproved of it (there wasn't even a question in my mind whether I was sinning), I just didn't care. I even told God that I thought that this was better than the way he meant it to be. It took over my mind; it was all I could think of. How to feed that addiction. That's what the devil does, takes things that he knows are bad and uses it to twist a person's minds (he doesn't care whether people believe in him or not, actually that is what he wants; if you say he doesn't exist, you are calling God a liar. That makes satan happy.) When I started feeling God drawing me to Him, I fought Him for several miserable weeks. I did not want to give it up. When I finally did accept Jesus into my heart, I had to give it up. My first several months as a Christian were rough. There wasn't a day that went by that the devil didn't throw it in my face; I was a nervous wreck. I can understand what you mean about two natures. It's absolutely true. If someone says they are a Christian, but has never experienced that feeling, then something is wrong. When I became a Christian I still liked those things and still wanted to be able to do what I did before I became a Christian, but I knew with out a doubt that I couldn't; it would be a sin. The Lord in His mercy helped me get through those times (I wouldn't want to live through that again; thank the Lord I don't have to) It has been a year since, and I have become close to God. I don't have that problem as much; I still have thoughts about it, but it's fleeting. It is only through Jesus, and His shed blood, that I was able to overcome and have a relationship with Him.

Amen, sister in Christ. How truly you speak. Some men have the same problem with female/female, and it's fed with pornography. It is an addiction. Undoubtedly some men transgendered in order to feed this addiction, and the most notable case of it is a practicing attorney in either Oregon or Washington (I forget) that transgendered so he and his wife could be lesbians.

Now they are legally still man and wife, and they became the first gay couple to have legally married status in the state.

 

[MercyBurst]

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I call the apostle Paul as my next witness to the stand. Here He presents the case that Born Again Believers are all too familiar with: the carnal nature versus the spiritual nature:

Romans Chapter 7


1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
concupiscence
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Just in case you all do not know what concupiscence means let me show all of you something about Paul's weakness:

Main Entry: con·cu·pis·cence \ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin concupiscentia, from Latin concupiscent-, concupiscens, present participle of concupiscere to desire ardently, from com- + cupere to desire Date: 14th century : strong desire; especially : sexual desire
— con·cu·pis·cent \ adjective

We do not know which sex Paul desired though we assume it was the opposite sex. Verse 8 says "all manner of concupiscence" and it appears that poor Paul was assaulted with ALL forms of sexual temptation whether it was same sex, opposite sex or whatever sex.

His orientation is never mentioned, and his desire was not fulfilled. Could this have been Paul's thorn in the flesh? It certainly appears to be at least one of them.

All believers in Christ have two natures inside them just like Paul. They are born with a carnal nature, and born again with a spiritual nature. These two natures can not co-exist.

I ask, how many natures do you have?

 

[MercyBurst]

again from Paul in 1st Cor 12:

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

My point here is that Paul asked the Lord to take away his thorn in the flesh, but God did not.

So the ex-ex-gays demonstrate they are not trusting God's grace.

If everyone got what they asked for from God then everyone would be a Christian, wouldn't they?

We demonstrate our faith when God doesn't give us what we ask for, and it's for His honor and glory, not ours.