One is in error, and I can prove it.

[ScottBot]

I have yet to see any real proof of this guarantee....

Of course you don't.

[bible]matthew 7:7[/bible]

 

[ScottBot]

So you imply that Peter's axample was exempt from his teaching? Or did you think we could slide by that with some irrevelant detail & a distracting conjecture re: "my standard"?
Example is the most presuasive teacher there is.
Paul thought it important enought to confront Peter with his error PUBLICLY. No record of his going to Peter privately first, & then with a couple of witnesses.

The only perfect example is Jesus. He is the only one capable of living without sin.

HOWEVER, if all of the Apostles were capable of teaching fallibly, then how do we know that ANY of the Gospel is accurate?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

When Gabriel addressed Mary with "Kacharitomene Mariam" He used the present participle in the perfect tense to describe Mary's state of grace. It wasn't Gabriel's announcement that filled Mary with grace, He was acknowledging a condition that already existed. Gabriel was commenting that Mary was already full of grace, and always had been. In effect he said, "Mary, you are full of grace." Not, "Mary, you are NOW full of grace", or "Mary, you will be full of grace", but a proclaimation that she was full of grace in a continual and unending sense. So, I ask you, when DID Mary become "full of grace". And if she was full of grace, how could she be considered corruptable and sinful?

As a preemptive arguement, Mary is not the originator of the grace she was filled with, but rather, she was the recipient of grace by a special act of God. That is why she says, "My soul rejoices in the Lord, my savior." Mary still needed a savior, her son, Jesus the Christ.

You have not answered my questions.

Forgive me...

 

[ScottBot]

You have not answered my questions.

Forgive me...

No, Anna and Jochim were not immaculately conceived. Does that mean that Jesus could not be either, following your logic? God can act in special and miraculous ways that defy explanation, right?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Of course you don't.

[bible]matthew 7:7[/bible]

sorry, how does this prove your point?

 

[ScottBot]

sorry, how does this prove your point?

I asked.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No, Anna and Jochim were not immaculately conceived. Does that mean that Jesus could not be either, following your logic? God can act in special and miraculous ways that defy explanation, right?

You are correct, they were not.

IF it was needed for Mary to be immaculately conceived for her to give birth to the Immaculate Word of God then it follows that Mary's parents would have to have been immaculately conceived as well for her to be Immaculate.

The Church of Rome "developed" this doctrine in an attempt to explain what we confess is a mystery.

The IC of Mary was contrived and is not Orthodox, nor is it catholic.

If it were truely catholic, it would have had to have been believed by all Christians everywhere from the beginning, and that is not the case.

Four of the five major Churches of the first 1000 years of the Church say that she was born just like the rest of us.

The Church of Rome is the ONLY Church who has ever stated that she was IC.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

I asked.

and I suppose everyone who differs on this point didn't ask.

Interesting concept. Highly self-aggrandizing.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Were Joachim and Anna sinners in need of a savior?

If so, how could they produce an immaculately conceived Mary?

You have not answered post #74.

Forgive me...

 

[ScottBot]

Were Joachim and Anna sinners in need of a savior?

If so, how could they produce an immaculately conceived Mary?

You have not answered post #74.

Forgive me...

They didn't. God produced an Immaculately Conceived Mary.

I ask you, when did Mary become "full of grace"?

Edit, I don't want anyone to think that Mary's parents (Anna and Joachim) were not involved in Mary's conception. They were. What I intimate is that God is intimately involved in Mary's (indeed, all of our) creation. By a special act of God, infused Mary with grace from the moment of her conception, preserving her to be the undefiled vessel to carry the unblemished "Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world".

 

[Uphill Battle]

They didn't. God produced an Immaculately Conceived Mary.

I ask you, when did Mary become "full of grace"?

Edit, I don't want anyone to think that Mary's parents (Anna and Joachim) were not involved in Mary's conception. They were. What I intimate is that God is intimately involved in Mary's (indeed, all of our) creation. By a special act of God, infused Mary with grace from the moment of her conception, preserving her to be the undefiled vessel to carry the unblemished "Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world".

still no reason to believe any of that is neccessary, or evidenced.

 

[ScottBot]

still no reason to believe any of that is neccessary, or evidenced.

Not for you, apparently.

 

[ScottBot]

and I suppose everyone who differs on this point didn't ask.

Interesting concept. Highly self-aggrandizing.

Actually, it was very humbling. To ask God for direction without presupposing the answer.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Not for you, apparently.

question.

Did Jesus dwell among sinners?

does he live in sinners now?

do sinners partake of him regularly?

do sinners commune with him?

do sinners call him friend?

Jesus lived with, ate with, befriended sinners.

he lives within us now, and none of us are sinless.

the "neccessity" that Mary be sinless to bear Christ is an out and out falsehood.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Actually, it was very humbling. To ask God for direction without presupposing the answer.

no, not that you asked, that YOU asked, and got the answer.... the rest of us poor saps, we got it wrong.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ortho, you are gratious in yopur assesment of motive re: the definition of Mary's Immaculate Conception.
Pius IX used it to open the door for infallability.
His manipuilations of the council are on record.

Father Martina's authoritative history of Pius' reign says:
"The head of the Cgurch knew well the trick of governong, and knew that it was better not to impose a plan from above but to inspire a popular movement & then to reinforce & guide it after it arose. His policy in these years looked precisely to supporting the hardliners (intransegenti), encouraging their desire for a definition of the doctrine. The papal diplomacy, La Civilita Cattolica, the Pope's own frequent audiences - these were the devices used for this purpose."

"Originally Posted by Amor Vincit Omnia
They didn't. God produced an Immaculately Conceived Mary."

>>>Totaly conjecture. No explicit scriptural proof.

I ask you, when did Mary become "full of grace"?

>>>I ask you, where in the the scripture does it tell us when, why do you find it so important?

 

[ScottBot]

question.

Did Jesus dwell among sinners?

does he live in sinners now?

do sinners partake of him regularly?

do sinners commune with him?

do sinners call him friend?

Jesus lived with, ate with, befriended sinners.

he lives within us now, and none of us are sinless.

the "neccessity" that Mary be sinless to bear Christ is an out and out falsehood.

....in your opinion.

 

[ScottBot]

Ortho, you are gratious in yopur assesment of motive re: the definition of Mary's Immaculate Conception.
Pius IX used it to open the door for infallability.
His manipuilations of the council are on record.

Father Martina's authoritative history of Pius' reign says:
"The head of the Cgurch knew well the trick of governong, and knew that it was better not to impose a plan from above but to inspire a popular movement & then to reinforce & guide it after it arose. His policy in these years looked precisely to supporting the hardliners (intransegenti), encouraging their desire for a definition of the doctrine. The papal diplomacy, La Civilita Cattolica, the Pope's own frequent audiences - these were the devices used for this purpose."

"Originally Posted by Amor Vincit Omnia
They didn't. God produced an Immaculately Conceived Mary."

>>>Totaly conjecture. No explicit scriptural proof.

I ask you, when did Mary become "full of grace"?

>>>I ask you, where in the the scripture does it tell us when, why do you find it so important?

So, what you are saying is that there have been bad popes who used their pulpit of spiritual leadership for personal gain?

I wish someone would have told me when I was looking at churches.

 

[Uphill Battle]

....in your opinion.

If you'd care to rebut the assertion, go ahead.

stating that it is "my opinion" does nothing to forward either your position, nor the conversation.

I have shown Jesus in relation to sinners. Please show how it is different in the case of Mary.

 

[ScottBot]

If you'd care to rebut the assertion, go ahead.

stating that it is "my opinion" does nothing to forward either your position, nor the conversation.

I have shown Jesus in relation to sinners. Please show how it is different in the case of Mary.

What it does it confirms that everything that you believe derived from your personal perspective of Scripture. You have, in effect, made yourself your own personal pope. Congradulations!!!!