One horrendous doctrine

[Wrigley]

Haha. That's the same thing I said.

Yeah, I saw that after I posted. Good response.

 

[nobdysfool]

Folks, when you read this thread, you see the same old baloney. Evasion, distortion and claims that Reformed Theology does not teach what it teaches.

God loves the world, all of fallen mankind. He gave His Son, so that anyone who believes in His Son would not perish but have eternal life. These He sets apart - elects - by spiritually placing them in Christ.

Lets deal with the false assertion that if you do not believe God consigned folks before creation you are a universalist. This misses the biblical truth that God elects folks to salvation during their physical lives, as clearly taught by 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Next lets deal with the false premise that propitiation equals salvation. Christs finished work on the cross was completely sucessful, not in saving everyone, but in providing the propitiation for everyone. But this reconciliation of mankind did not save any individual. In order to be saved, you have to receive the reconcilation provided by the cross. And this happens when God accepts your faith in Christ and then places you spiritually in Christ.

Reformed Theology provides an absurd view of God, and the result is that many reject it. As stated in Mathew 23:13, the effect upon some is to shut-off entry into the kingdom by presenting false doctrine. It is time to consign this relic of the dark ages to the trash-bin of history.

Van, do you have anything of substance to contribute? So far the answer is "no". Your post is just more of the same lies, distortions, and fabrications you offer with no proof other than your own say-so. You dirty the Name of Christ with such tactics, and with the hatred you express. No one takes you seriously, because you spread filth and falsehoods wherever you post. Your post is irrelevant, disruptive, distorted, and full of lies.

 

[Van]

RT is defended by posting endless ad homenims, logical fallacies that are simply efforts to change the subject. The topic of this thread is the false doctrine that God did not provide reconciliation for the whole world through the sacrifice of Christ.

But the truth is that God loves the world, all of fallen mankind. He gave His Son, so that anyone who believes in His Son would not perish but have eternal life. These He sets apart - elects - by spiritually placing them in Christ.

Lets deal with the false assertion that if you do not believe God consigned folks before creation you are a universalist. This misses the biblical truth that God elects folks to salvation during their physical lives, as clearly taught by 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Next lets deal with the false premise that propitiation equals salvation. Christs finished work on the cross was completely sucessful, not in saving everyone, but in providing the propitiation for everyone. But this reconciliation of mankind did not save any individual. In order to be saved, you have to receive the reconcilation provided by the cross. And this happens when God accepts your faith in Christ and then places you spiritually in Christ.

Reformed Theology provides an absurd view of God, and the result is that many reject it. As stated in Mathew 23:13, the effect upon some is to shut-off entry into the kingdom by presenting false doctrine. It is time to consign this relic of the dark ages to the trash-bin of history.

 

[nobdysfool]

Vain repetition. No substance, all fluff. How many times has this same post been posted?

Van thinks he will be heard and believed for his much-speaking.

Your despicable and slanderous attacks on the brethren are proof of a problem you are not willing to face, that of hatred and bearing false witness against the brethren. Your accusations against Calvinists are false, without merit, irrational, and hate-filled. Hatred is not a fruit of the Spirit. Hatred has no place in the Kingdom of God.

Your posts abundantly show that you hate Calvinists.

 

[Jipsah]

RT is defended by posting endless ad homenims

Sorry, but you don't understand the term, rendering the charge pretty much meaningless.

The topic of this thread is the false doctrine that God did not provide reconciliation for the whole world through the sacrifice of Christ.

Is the whole world saved and bound for heaven, Van? If not, then you're gonna have a very tough time demonstrating that the whole world was reconciled with God by our Lord's sacrifice.

But the truth is that God loves the world, all of fallen mankind. He gave His Son, so that anyone who believes in His Son would not perish but have eternal life. These He sets apart - elects - by spiritually placing them in Christ.

So let's see. Those who have the merit of believing in Christ (at least at the time of their death) get eternal life, while everyone else, although according to you reconciled to God, and although according to you beloved of God, gets tortured without hope throughout all of eternity. Hmmmmm...

Christs finished work on the cross was completely sucessful, not in saving everyone, but in providing the propitiation for everyone.

Doublespeak. If those propitiated but unsaved go to hell, then what good was done them?

But this reconciliation of mankind did not save any individual.

Then they'd have been better off under the Law, wouldn't they?

In order to be saved, you have to receive the reconcilation provided by the cross.

So salvation is still a matter of what the individual does, just as it was under the Law. Only the requirements have changed.

Reformed Theology provides an absurd view of God

I'd say that Arminianism provides view of God as "capricious" (your word, not mine) and apathetic toward the ghastly fate prepared for most of His creatures. A thoroughly nasty view, IMO.

the result is that many reject it.

Most reject it because they dislike God being in charge instead of themselves (which is what most Arminian arguments come down to) and because they don't actually understand what it's about.

It is time to consign this relic of the dark ages to the trash-bin of history.

And replace it with a man-centered soteriology, free from the caprices of God, right Van?

 

[Yekcidmij]

Something I was thinking about: I think it's found in Romans 8:28-30.

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. "

So God already predestined those He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him. And since He forknew and predestined those people, He would call those people to Himself. Does this make any sense? Am I talking Calvanism?

I think it solves questions like: What happens to babies? or What happens to those who have never heard? because if God foreknew weather or not they would freely choose Him then He predestined them to salvation. For example, if a baby is killed when it's a few months old, God forbid, God in His foreknowledge knew weather or not the child would choose Him if it had been given the chance. And in accordance with the above verses, if the child had grown old enough to choose Christ, then God has already predestined the child to salvation. I think this eliminates the need for an age of accountability too. God in His foreknowlege knows who will freely choose Him so He predestined those people and will call them to Himeself whenever He deems appropriate.


So a man in the woods who never hears the gospel can be saved since God knows that had he been given the chance to hear, he would believe, so God predestined him.

Or it could be said that since the man is living in the woods and never hears, that had he been given the chance to hear, he would not have believed. So God in His sovreignty, ordered the world, so the man living in the woods never hears and is never predestined and is never called becuase God foreknew what the man would do anyway.



I'm mostly just juggling ideas around and I could be way way off base, so I'm open for criticism and correction.

 

[Van]

Jipsah, charging me with ignorance is a worldly tactic, an ad homenim, and therefore a fallacy.

I have no difficulty demonstrating that the whole world was reconciled, because that is what scripture says.

Jipsah, try addressing my position rather than your own presumptions. Once a person is saved, they are saved forever, and salvation (positional sanctification) occurs during not after our physical life. When God spiritually places us "in Christ" 1 Corinthians 1:30, we receive the reconciliation provided by the cross.

Providing propitiation for the whole world provides the opportunity to receive the reconcilation (salvation). As a partaker in that reconciliation, I would call that very good indeed!!

The folks under the Old Covenant obtained approval through faith. The folks under the New Covenant are saved by grace through faith.

Reformed Theology is a man-centered theology, rather than a Christ centered theology. Christ said whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but Calvinism says this means only us, the chosen of God, can believe and be saved!

 

[Van]

If you re-read Romans 8:28-30, you will see that those God foreknew (which means knew beforehand) refers to those who were called according to His purpose. When we are called, we are placed spiritually in Christ and indwelt, and therefore known intimately by God. These, the called, became those known by God. And afterwords, after He placed them in Christ, then they were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and predestined to our future bodily resurrection.

When you put foreknew ahead of being called, you misconstrue the passage.

 

[IamAdopted]

If you re-read Romans 8:28-30, you will see that those God foreknew (which means knew beforehand) refers to those who were called according to His purpose. When we are called, we are placed spiritually in Christ and indwelt, and therefore known intimately by God. These, the called, became those known by God. And afterwords, after He placed them in Christ, then they were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and predestined to our future bodily resurrection.

When you put foreknew ahead of being called, you misconstrue the passage.

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[Yekcidmij]

When you put foreknew ahead of being called, you misconstrue the passage.

That's what I said. God forknew those that would freely choose Him, so He predestined them to salvation.

 

[Jipsah]

Jipsah, charging me with ignorance is a worldly tactic, an ad homenim, and therefore a fallacy.

Nope, not at all. If you're ignorant of the subject at hand, then your arguments won't have any merit, as in fact they don't. And once again, for crying out loud look up "ad hominem". It does not mean, as you seem to believe, "arguments that I wish they hadn't made."

I have no difficulty demonstrating that the whole world was reconciled, because that is what scripture says.

Then by all means do so.

Jipsah, try addressing my position rather than your own presumptions.

I did, and have. That's what you're trying to dodge now.

Once a person is saved, they are saved forever

How does that work? If it's all based on belief, then if you believe today but recant tomorrow, then you've lost the merit that gains you salvation, haven't you?

, and salvation (positional sanctification) occurs during not after our physical life.

And since your faith may ebb and flo like the tides during your physical life, then so does your saving merit, does it not? And if not, why not?

When God spiritually places us "in Christ" 1 Corinthians 1:30, we receive the reconciliation provided by the cross.

Is God allowed to do that in your economy? After all, you wouldn't want Him to capricisouly just place anyone in Christ without so much as a by-your-leave. What if they decide they don't want to be "in Christ" any more? Is He gonna force them? You can't have that, no sirree!

Providing propitiation for the whole world provides the opportunity to receive the reconcilation

Oh, so now they have the opportunity to be reconciled and aren't really reconciled as you said before. Dang, Van, you're like trying to nail Jello to a tree, you know it? First you say one thing and then another. A couple of paragraphs ago you said (and I quote) "I have no difficulty demonstrating that the whole world was reconciled". Now you tell me that the whole world has "the opportunity to be reconciled". Made up your mind, willya?

Reformed Theology is a man-centered theology

Now that's a ridiculous charge on its face, since your objection to it is that we have God doing all the saving, quite apart from anything we can do. In fact, it's your repeated contention that if God (who you appear to view as capricious and unjust) were left to do the saving, He would save only a tiny number of people.
You'd have salvation left strictly up to man, and God a passive observer. So which is the man centered theology, Van?

Sorry, hoss, but as dedicated as you are to calling black white and night day, it still doesn't make any of it true.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Van,

How do you explain God's forknowledge, predestination, sovreignty, and free will in relation to salvation.


Jipsah,

Same question to you.

 

[BBAS 64]

Something I was thinking about: I think it's found in Romans 8:28-30.

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. "

So God already predestined those He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him. And since He forknew and predestined those people, He would call those people to Himself. Does this make any sense? Am I talking Calvanism?

Good Day, Yekcidmij

Where in this passage does it say that God knew who would believe?

The passage says "those" he forknew, he foreknew those. Foreknow here is a verb some thing God does, not a noun "some thing about some one" (belief).

I think it solves questions like: What happens to babies? or What happens to those who have never heard? because if God foreknew weather or not they would freely choose Him then He predestined them to salvation. For example, if a baby is killed when it's a few months old, God forbid, God in His foreknowledge knew weather or not the child would choose Him if it had been given the chance. And in accordance with the above verses, if the child had grown old enough to choose Christ, then God has already predestined the child to salvation. I think this eliminates the need for an age of accountability too. God in His foreknowlege knows who will freely choose Him so He predestined those people and will call them to Himeself whenever He deems appropriate.


So a man in the woods who never hears the gospel can be saved since God knows that had he been given the chance to hear, he would believe, so God predestined him.

Or it could be said that since the man is living in the woods and never hears, that had he been given the chance to hear, he would not have believed. So God in His sovreignty, ordered the world, so the man living in the woods never hears and is never predestined and is never called becuase God foreknew what the man would do anyway.



I'm mostly just juggling ideas around and I could be way way off base, so I'm open for criticism and correction.

The only way to be svaed is though the power of the Gospel for it is the power unto salvation. There fore those who do not hear can not be saved, there is no instrument to bring about their salvation. The gospel is God's ordained mean, by which he saves his people. You may see with in your own mind a need for such an age, but to make that a requirement of God actions is just silly IMHO.

Remember some one's death is in the hands of God, so there fore God is not bound by this neither. Though we may infact be (bound) because we are creatures there for finite.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Van]

And once again, for crying out loud look up "ad hominem". It does not mean, as you seem to believe, "arguments that I wish they hadn't made."

Yet another example of an ad homenim argument, devoid of on topic content. Folks, this is the sum and substance of the RT defense.

Salvation is not based on belief, but on the sovereign irreversible act of God.

Jipsah, I explain my position and you post that cannot be my position? LOL

Dang Jipsah, you are simply evading my position. I say Christ's death on the cross provided the propitiation or means of salvation, for the whole world, but we as individuals must receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death.

Folks, pay no attention to the positions attributed to me by Jipsah, they are invalid strawman stood up to be knocked down.

 

[Van]

Hi I am adopted, note that the folks who were called in verse 28 are the ones that God knew. After you are saved and indwelt, you are called a second time, not out of darkness, the call of verse 28, but you are then called to a holy calling, the ministry of Christ. Two different calls.

 

[Van]

How do you explain God's forknowledge, predestination, sovreignty, and free will in relation to salvation.

Good question!!

God's foreknowledge as used in the question refers to God's knowledge of the future. What God has predestined to occur, He knows will occur. The issue is "Has God predestined everything" or does He allow us some area of autonomous decision making. Scripture says we make plans, but He directs our steps. Thus within the limits allowed by God, we can exercise our will autonomously according to scripture. And therefore God has not predestined whether or not we will choose life or death when He sets before us that choice between alternate outcomes.

We are free to accept the gospel or reject it, in full or in part. But it is God who either credits our faith as righteousness, or rejects our half-hearted faith, thus we are saved by grace through faith. Our faith provides our access to saving grace.

 

[Jipsah]

Yet another example of an ad homenim argument

OK, since you can't or won't look up "ad hominem", here's an example of the way an ad hom really works:

A: The sun always rises in the east.
B: Oh yeah? That's what you say, but you're a notorious card cheat.

B is making an ad hom argument.

Here's what it's not:

A: Since the sun rises in the east, the east must necessarily be hotter than the west.
B: Your major premise is false, and your knowledge faulty.

Not an ad hom.

Mayeb that will help. But I doubt it. I think you just like the term and really couldn't care less what it actually means.

Jipsah, I explain my position and you post that cannot be my position? LOL

Care to quiote where I said such a thing? It appears that you're failing to tell the truth... again.

I say Christ's death on the cross provided the propitiation or means of salvation, for the whole world, but we as individuals must receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death.

So in your economy salvation is up to us, although the Lord was kind enough to make it available to us. Yep, that's you've said, and I consider it arrant hogwash. God does the saving, not us.

, pay no attention to the positions attributed to me by Jipsah, they are invalid strawman stood up to be knocked down.

In other words, you can't defend your own position. No duh!

 

[Jipsah]

Our faith provides our access to saving grace.

Yep, it's all up to us, isn't it Van? God's just an observer. He gave us the means, then He sat back to see what would happen. And that's good, in your view, because God is capricious, and would save people whether they wanted saving or not (coercion, bad), and wouldn't save very many, isn't that right?

It's all about I. I chose, I decided, I found, I will, I come, I follow, I, I, I, I.... Thanks, God, for putting it where I can get it; I'll take it from here. Right?

 

[Yekcidmij]

[/font]

We are free to accept the gospel or reject it, in full or in part. But it is God who either credits our faith as righteousness, or rejects our half-hearted faith, thus we are saved by grace through faith. Our faith provides our access to saving grace.

This may have been addressed already in this thread, but, what qualifies as half hearted faith?
What qualifies as full measured faith?
What happens if someone decides they no longer want to have faith? Does God still save in this case?

 

[Yekcidmij]

One of the points of calvanism says man cannot choose anything good, so God must intervene in order for us to do good. Is this correct? It is said that man is sinful by nature to the point where he is incapable of choosing good without God's help. Do I have it strait? My other question is, does Calvanism allow for free will at all?