One God vs Triune God

[timothyu]

So the thinking of separate but one never occurred to the Hebrew people but only came into existence basically at the hand of gentiles?

 

[hedrick]

So the thinking of separate but one never occurred to the Hebrew people but only came into existence basically at the hand of gentiles?

If you're speaking of the Trinity, I'm arguing that this isn't quite true. They didn't put Wisdom and the Holy Spirit together with God and speak of a Trinity, but all three were there, and so was the idea of one God, just not a single framework to talk about all of this together.

 

[timothyu]

If you're speaking of the Trinity, I'm arguing that this isn't quite true.

No I am saying (referring to) the train of though of separate but one used in the formulation of the Trinity. Did that train of thought not exist before the gentiles? Either viewpoint is related to train of thought. If it didn't exist then why the major shift? Was religion creating a new philosophy and for what purpose? Duality and trinity would have been from the same train of thought, but duality didn't exist for thousands of years of pre-Christian adaptation of Hebrew religion.

 

[hedrick]

No I am saying (referring to) the train of though of separate but one used in the formulation of the Trinity. Did that train of thought not exist before the gentiles? Either viewpoint is related to train of thought. If it didn't exist then why the major shift? Was religion creating a new philosophy and for what purpose? Duality and trinity would have been from the same train of thought, but duality didn't exist for thousands of years of pre-Christian adaptation of Hebrew religion.

Separate but one seems to be implicit in the Wisdom / logos. See John 1. I don’t know whether anyone thought about the ontological status of the Holy Spirit.

 

[timothyu]

I don’t know whether anyone thought about the ontological status of the Holy Spirit.

Right so why the need to change the train of thought? Duality didn't trigger the need for change so what was it about a new religion over the people that required a shift in thinking? The idea was not new to the religion but had been used by Caesars and the like for ages, a secular concept. Was this just another instant of adversarial thinking trying to make over Christianity into man's image, a hybrid of the movement Jesus started??

I totally agree with the concept of three entities working as one in the common cause of Kingdom and the Father's will over the world rather than man's, but how did it get twisted?

 

[hedrick]

Right so why the need to change the train of thought? Duality didn't trigger the need for change so what was it about a new religion over the people that required a shift in thinking? The idea was not new to the religion but had been used by Caesars and the like for ages, a secular concept. Was this just another instant of adversarial thinking trying to make over Christianity into man's image, a hybrid of the movement Jesus started??

I totally agree with the concept of three entities working as one in the common cause of Kingdom and the Father's will over the world rather than man's, but how did it get twisted?

That's a complex historical question. And our records are sparser than we'd like. Christian theology has often developed out of worship. Matthew suggests that there was a baptismal formula involving Father, Son and Holy Spirit from fairly early, among what we assume is a Jewish-Christian congregation. Paul uses that kind of tripartite formula a few places, though normally in the form God, Son and Holy Spirit. Since the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were all well-known manifestations of God, I think this kind of language was obvious. It's also obvious that people would reflect on the relationship between the Father and Jesus. You can see preexistence attributed to Christ several places in the NT. I think the background of that language is more Jewish than Gentile.

Later developments were how to conceptualize all of this. Certainly some of it was the need to have a theology that would seem reasonable to people who knew Greek philosophy. Some of it was the need to develop alternatives to what looked like understandings. Conflict over patriassianism pushed things in the direction of seeing the Son as distinct, to avoid having the Father suffer. The Arian conflict dealt with whether the Son should be seen as truly equal to the Father. Saying that he was pretty much cemented things.

But I think the grounds are pretty early, and visible from a Jewish background.

 

[timothyu]

I think the background of that language is more Jewish than Gentile.

The Caesars were already calling themselves trinities. The secular pattern was already set.

 

[setst777]

The Caesars were already calling themselves trinities. The secular pattern was already set.

The ideas that formed the doctrine of the Trinity are certainly present in the New Testament, including the Baptismal Formula (Matthew 28:19-20).

We know that the Father is God.
We know that the Son is God
We know that the Spirit is God

Yet, we know there is one God, the Father, but within the nature of that one God exists the Spirit and the Word. God would not be God without His Spirit and His Word through whom God creates and accomplishes all things in Heaven and in Earth. Therefore God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - all three being of the very same nature of being that one God.

How do we know this? Not because pagans used these concepts, but because such is taught within the New Testament. It just took time for the early Church to put this all into doctrinal statements and Creeds in order to protect The Faith of the Gospel against heretics.

 

[ChetSinger]

The Jewish concept of God is same as Islamic concept of God. Jesus believe in one God like Muslims do. They don't believe God is 3 persons

Hello! Long ago Judaism had a Godhead. It was declared heretical by the rabbis sometime in the 2nd century. Was it a coincidence that by this time Christianity had taken this idea and applied it to Jesus of Nazareth?

Here's one short lecture by a scholar of Hebrew that gives some examples of Godhead theology in the Jewish scriptures:

And this book by rabbinical scholar Alan Segal reveals that a two-part Godhead was within Jewish orthodoxy during the 2nd temple period, while Jesus walked the earth: https://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-H...ds=two+powers+in+heaven&qid=1624291461&sr=8-1

In sum, Judaism had a two-part and sometimes even three-part Godhead before Christianity began. So the disciples of Jesus were not creating new theology when they wrote that he was God in human form. They simply applied an existing belief to him.

I found this fascinating when I first learned of it. Among other things it explained to me why Jesus was immediately convicted of blasphemy after he quoted the vision in Daniel 7 and applied it to himself: that passage was being used by rabbis to describe the Godhead. So when Jesus quoted it he really was claiming divinity right there in front of them. It's not surprising he was convicted.

 

[timothyu]

Yet, we know there is one God, the Father, but within the nature of that one God exists the Spirit and the Word. God would not be God without His Spirit and His Word through whom God creates and accomplishes all things in Heaven and in Earth. Therefore God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - all three being of the very same nature of being that one God.

I don't disagree but am merely saying the concept already existed and unfortunately the gentiles (especially the Romans who built upon Roman foundations) were also good at making the religion over in their own image that had preceded them, thus the hybrid religion of flesh and spirit.

 

[setst777]

I don't disagree but am merely saying the concept already existed and unfortunately the gentiles (especially the Romans who built upon Roman foundations) were also good at making the religion over in their own image that had preceded them, thus the hybrid religion of flesh and spirit.

I see your point.

Blessings to you Brother.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The ideas that formed the doctrine of the Trinity are certainly present in the New Testament, including the Baptismal Formula (Matthew 28:19-20).

We know that the Father is God.
We know that the Son is God
We know that the Spirit is God

Yet, we know there is one God, the Father, but within the nature of that one God exists the Spirit and the Word. God would not be God without His Spirit and His Word through whom God creates and accomplishes all things in Heaven and in Earth. Therefore God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - all three being of the very same nature of being that one God.

How do we know this? Not because pagans used these concepts, but because such is taught within the New Testament. It just took time for the early Church to put this all into doctrinal statements and Creeds in order to protect The Faith of the Gospel against heretics.

It is also taught in the OT. See Isaiah 9:6-7. And of course you can string many other individual passages together to arrive at the Trinity (in the OT and NT).

 

[setst777]

It is also taught in the OT. See Isaiah 9:6-7. And of course you can string many other individual passages together to arrive at the Trinity (in the OT and NT).

Yes, good Passage. The Old Testament contains many Passages, including prophecy (of which you quoted), that recognize God, and the name Jehovah, the Word, as referring to God as a plural being. We have one OT Passage that specifically speaks of God's Son (Psalms 2:12), and we have Passages referring to the Spirit of God. All such Passages refer to God's nature as having a composite unity.

Blessings.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes, good Passage. The Old Testament contains many Passages, including prophecy (of which you quoted), that recognize God, and the name Jehovah, the Word, as referring to God as a plural being. We have one OT Passage that specifically speaks of God's Son (Psalms 2:12), and we have Passages referring to the Spirit of God. All such Passages refer to God's nature as having a composite unity.

Blessings.

Thank you and Blessings to you,

These passages from Isaiah 9:6-7:
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The child to be given us, the son, is Jesus. It states there that among all else He shall be the Mighty God, Everlasting Father...so there's no denying that Jesus is the Son and He is the Everlasting Father. The son, Jesus will be called Wonderful Counselor...so stated here...the Wonderful Counselor is the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of John records Jesus as saying He will send us the Counselor and He will remind us of everything He (Jesus) taught. (that's John 14:26) The Spirit is also mentioned in several OT passages as coming upon the prophets which testify...so then one need not rely on the NT to arrive at the Trinity. We see the three persons mentioned in these Isaiah verses, however, and yet the one-ness of God...last line..."The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."
The OT Israelites were taught the Scriptures so I am just stating here that the Triune nature of God was known to them. The idea that the Romans had the Tribunal is only ancillary and certainly not a precursor to this knowledge...as I believe is being pointed out in some previous posts.
This is not new either...the pagan world followed ideas and precepts of the Hebrews...news spreads and permeates the nations because of the greatness of God and all He does for His peoples. Remember the sacrifices the pagans made...although a corruption, the idea is rooted in Judaism, I believe, and not the other way around. I am not referring to your post here; I am rather making new points for all readers.

 

[timothyu]

All such Passages refer to God's nature as having a composite unity.

Yet it took Gentiles to improve on it?

 

[setst777]

Yet it took Gentiles to improve on it?

: )

The Gentile Church improved their understanding of knowledge of the Scripture that God made known to them.

God fully revealed what was a mystery by His Word to the Church, the Word which was kept hidden for ages past, but now revealed by the Command of the Eternal God in writing.

Ephesians 3:7-11 (NIV) 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Ephesians 3:4-6 (NIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:13 (NIV)
13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.

Colossians 2:1-8
1 I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally (so it has to be in writing). 2 My purpose is that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the Mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you with find sounding arguments.
. . . 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

1 Peter 1:10-12 (WEB)
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently. They prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them. 12 To them it was revealed, that they served not themselves, but you, in these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

Colossians 1:25-27 (NIV) 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the Word of God in its fullness — 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

So the fullness of the Gospel, and of Lord Jesus, was preached, but was also written down by the Command of the Eternal God to give us complete understanding of the mystery of God, and the Gospel, that for past ages was hidden.

 

[setst777]

Thank you and Blessings to you,

These passages from Isaiah 9:6-7:
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The child to be given us, the son, is Jesus. It states there that among all else He shall be the Mighty God, Everlasting Father...so there's no denying that Jesus is the Son and He is the Everlasting Father. The son, Jesus will be called Wonderful Counselor...so stated here...the Wonderful Counselor is the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of John records Jesus as saying He will send us the Counselor and He will remind us of everything He (Jesus) taught. (that's John 14:26) The Spirit is also mentioned in several OT passages as coming upon the prophets which testify...so then one need not rely on the NT to arrive at the Trinity. We see the three persons mentioned in these Isaiah verses, however, and yet the one-ness of God...last line..."The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."
The OT Israelites were taught the Scriptures so I am just stating here that the Triune nature of God was known to them. The idea that the Romans had the Tribunal is only ancillary and certainly not a precursor to this knowledge...as I believe is being pointed out in some previous posts.
This is not new either...the pagan world followed ideas and precepts of the Hebrews...news spreads and permeates the nations because of the greatness of God and all He does for His peoples. Remember the sacrifices the pagans made...although a corruption, the idea is rooted in Judaism, I believe, and not the other way around. I am not referring to your post here; I am rather making new points for all readers.

Good insight. Thank you for sharing.