MJ Only One GOD and One LORD (cont.)

[visionary]

Just because it's translated as priest, doesn't mean anything. David's sons are referred as kohanim (2Samuel 8-18)- which they clearly were not. There are many, and various midrashes, and a few opinions in the Talmud about 110. And of course the Psalm refers to king Mashiach. As the prophet said " My servant David will be king over them, and they will have one sheppard . They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees". David was the anointed king and the prophets teach that the Mashiach will be like David. And since Jesus was not a king, was not anointed as one, how can he be the adonee in 110?

If God anoints someone King, are we to argue with Him declaring that He didn't do it according to our rules? The word ‘Messiah’ means anointed with oil. All kings, high priests, and prophets in the Jewish Bible are described as “Messiahs” because they were all anointed with oil into God’s service. Many Jewish prophets foretold that a particular messiah, the Messiah ben David would appear and fulfil six major prophecies that will lead the world into a special Messianic Era.

Is 11:1-4 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him – the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD – and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,or decide by what he hears with his ears; but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

Is 42;1 Here is my servant, whom I uphold,my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations …

Is 61:1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me (יען משׁח יהוה אתי) to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners …

On the basis of these prophecies the Yeshua's anointing would be with the Holy Spirit (not with oil) and done by YHVH Himself. Israel as a nation started out as a theocracy (nation governed by God through His prophets). Then in the days of Samuel, the people desired a king “like all the other nations”. This upset Samuel, but the LORD instructed him to “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected Me as their King. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you.”

I Sam 1:8-22 "Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.” Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.” But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.” When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king”

Since the dynasty of Israel’s human kings sprung from a rejection of God, Israel can never exist in God’s perfect order until its kingship is once again vested in God Himself. Would it not vindicate Israel’s rejection of Him, if Israel could achieve its Divine perfection in the Messianic Age under the kingship of a mere man? Thus the Messiah ben David would not be an ordinary man who would rule like other kings in the conventional way. Micah said that Messiah’s origins would be ‘from everlasting’. Micah 5:2. Isaiah said (in the passage quoted above) that the Branch from Jesse would “strike the earth with the rod of his mouth [and] with the breath of his lips … slay the wicked.” I.e. that Messiah would rule by the Word of God – not by military and political power. Nathan and Ezekiel both said that Messiah would rule forever. 1 Chronicles 17:12; Ezekiel 37:25. David and Daniel both saw that Messiah’s throne would be in heaven, that he would rule from there. Psalm 110; Daniel 7:13 -14

 

[Open Heart]

The Psalm does not say David is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Nor does it say Yeshua. However, we have other witnesses that declare Yeshua as the subject of verse 4. Nor does it say David sat at YHWH's right hand.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree agreeably on this. For me, I don't think you can discount that for a hundreds of years before Christ, Jews interpreted Lord as referring to David and it made perfect sense to them (and still does). It was not until after the resurrection that the Church added the messianic meaning. But, as you will.

 

[Open Heart]

The usage of certain consonants to indicate a vowel in the spelling of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac languages is called matres lectionis (Latin “mothers of reading”, singular form: mater lectionis, Hebrew: אֵם קְרִיאָה mother of reading). The letters that do this in Hebrew are א (aleph), ה (he), ו (waw) and י (yod). The י and ו in particular are more often vowels than they are consonants. http://biblicalhebrew.org/mater-lectionis.aspx

Every letter in the Tetragrammaton is spoken as a vowel.

No, sir, they are not. Since when is a short y sound considered a vowel? Since when is a v or a w considered a vowel? Since when is an h sound considered a vowel? The actual vowels are not contained in ancient Hebrew. Suggestions have been Y*h*v*h, and Y*hv*h, but those are just two guesses among a great many possibilities.

I suggest you take a beginner's course in Hebrew before you make these sort of comments. If money is a problem, synagogues sometimes offer such classes for free if you come in with a respectful attitude and keep your mouth shut about Yeshua. You'll find they are good peoples.

 

[Open Heart]

Catholicism teaches people it is ok to eat pig and work on the 7th day.
Judaism teaches people that the holy days are according to their Hillel calendar which they admit is wrong.

I can't answer your post, because the SOP states that I cannot advocate any church's positions, nor can we promote Judaism in here.

Remember, I'm not saying that verse for isn't about the Messiah. I'm merely pointing out the problem with your logic.

 

[gadar perets]

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree agreeably on this. For me, I don't think you can discount that for a hundreds of years before Christ, Jews interpreted Lord as referring to David and it made perfect sense to them (and still does). It was not until after the resurrection that the Church added the messianic meaning. But, as you will.

What pre-Christ references are you referring to that show the Jewish interpretation of "Lord" meaning David? My post #83 shows non-messianic Jewish interpretations showing "Lord" to refer to the Messiah. It was not "the Church" that gave the messianic meaning, but Yeshua himself. The Church simply continued to proclaim the Master's teaching on Psalm 110:1.

 

[Open Heart]

John 8:17-18; 2 Corinthians 13:1.

If the verse said, "David is a priest after the order of Melchizedek", then you would not need any other verses to support that. However, since you are assuming David is the subject of verse 4, you need other verses to support that assumption. Yes, you can have your interpretation, but supporting verses would validate your interpretation.

Your logic ALSO refutes your assertion that verse 4 is about the Messiah, since other verses nowhere say anything about the Messiah.

 

[gadar perets]

No, sir, they are not. Since when is a short y sound considered a vowel? Since when is a v or a w considered a vowel? Since when is an h sound considered a vowel? The actual vowels are not contained in ancient Hebrew. Suggestions have been Y*h*v*h, and Y*hv*h, but those are just two guesses among a great many possibilities.

I suggest you take a beginner's course in Hebrew before you make these sort of comments. If money is a problem, synagogues sometimes offer such classes for free if you come in with a respectful attitude and keep your mouth shut about Yeshua. You'll find they are good peoples.

I did not make those comments. I was quoting biblicalhebrew.org. Are you saying the info is wrong? There are Hebrew grammar books that say the same thing. Are they wrong as well?

 

[gadar perets]

I can't answer your post, because the SOP states that I cannot advocate any church's positions, nor can we promote Judaism in here.

Remember, I'm not saying that verse for isn't about the Messiah. I'm merely pointing out the problem with your logic.

My logic is flawless because it comes from Yeshua himself as well as Scripture.

 

[Open Heart]

whoopsie

 

[gadar perets]

Your logic ALSO refutes your assertion that verse 4 is about the Messiah, since other verses nowhere say anything about the Messiah.

Hebrews 5:6; Hebrews 5:10; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 7:1-3; Hebrews 7:11; Hebrews 7:17

 

[Open Heart]

My logic is flawless because it comes from Yeshua himself as well as Scripture.

Since your logic is flawed (disproving that Lord doesn't refer to Yeshua) it is obviously not from Yeshua or the Bible.

 

[Open Heart]

Hebrews 5:6; Hebrews 5:10; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 7:1-3; Hebrews 7:11; Hebrews 7:17

I'm talking about verses in Psalm 110, which would help give context.

 

[Open Heart]

What pre-Christ references are you referring to that show the Jewish interpretation of "Lord" meaning David? My post #83 shows non-messianic Jewish interpretations showing "Lord" to refer to the Messiah. It was not "the Church" that gave the messianic meaning, but Yeshua himself. The Church simply continued to proclaim the Master's teaching on Psalm 110:1.

Do you know how many times the Tanach uses the word ‘adoni’ ? More than 130 times. Every single time it means “lord” or “master,” and refers to a human being.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm talking about verses in Psalm 110, which would help give context.

Psalm 110 does not say those verses refer to David either. As a believer in Messiah Yeshua, I would think you would accept the NT writings proving verses 1 & 4 refer to Yeshua.

 

[gadar perets]

Do you know how many times the Tanach uses the word ‘adoni’ ? More than 130 times. Every single time it means “lord” or “master,” and refers to a human being.

Yeshua was a human being. After he was resurrected, he was invited to sit at YHWH's right hand.

 

[Open Heart]

Psalm 110 does not say those verses refer to David either. As a believer in Messiah Yeshua, I would think you would accept the NT writings proving verses 1 & 4 refer to Yeshua.

I absolutely do! We AGREE on that. My view is that the face value meaning is David, and that the secondary meaning is messianic.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree agreeably. Two different brains, two different opinions.

 

[Open Heart]

Yeshua was a human being. After he was resurrected, he was invited to sit at YHWH's right hand.

Yeshua was truly man and truly God.

 

[gadar perets]

I absolutely do! We AGREE on that. My view is that the face value meaning is David, and that the secondary meaning is messianic.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree agreeably. Two different brains, two different opinions.

We can agree to disagree, but I would still like to see the pre-Christ references you referred to in post #102 that show the Jewish interpretation of "Lord" meaning David?

 

[Open Heart]

We can agree to disagree, but I would still like to see the pre-Christ references you referred to in post #102 that show the Jewish interpretation of "Lord" meaning David?

It's not just Jewish scholarship, but scholarship in general.

Here is a paragraph from an article on on Bethany University's website (an Evangelical Institution):

Psalm 110 is "the OT text most frequently cited or alluded to in the NT" (Allen, Word Comm. [1983]: 87). It is seen by almost all as a Messianic psalm in the ultimate sense. However, the majority of mainstream scholarship sees it as originally a royal psalm, composed by a court prophet in honor of the king. The Davidic attribution was added to identify it with other Davidic psalms and perhaps to identify it as Messianic from the start, but David is not seen as the one speaking. Rather, in v. 1 ("YHWH says to my lord"), "my lord" refers to David (or any Davidic king), who is being referred to with deference by this court prophet.

http://people.bethel.edu/~dhoward/classes/OT232/Messianic Psalms (and Psalm 110).pdf

One must also consider that in ancient Judaism, there was not one messiah, but many messiahs. David was considered Mashiach, anointed by Samuel, bringing Israel into a new age of greatness.

 

[gadar perets]

It's not just Jewish scholarship, but scholarship in general.

Here is a paragraph from an article on on Bethany University's website (an Evangelical Institution):

Psalm 110 is "the OT text most frequently cited or alluded to in the NT" (Allen, Word Comm. [1983]: 87). It is seen by almost all as a Messianic psalm in the ultimate sense. However, the majority of mainstream scholarship sees it as originally a royal psalm, composed by a court prophet in honor of the king. The Davidic attribution was added to identify it with other Davidic psalms and perhaps to identify it as Messianic from the start, but David is not seen as the one speaking. Rather, in v. 1 ("YHWH says to my lord"), "my lord" refers to David (or any Davidic king), who is being referred to with deference by this court prophet.

http://people.bethel.edu/~dhoward/classes/OT232/Messianic Psalms (and Psalm 110).pdf

You wrote, "For me, I don't think you can discount that for a hundreds of years before Christ, Jews interpreted Lord as referring to David and it made perfect sense to them (and still does)." If you have no proof of this, then you should not have written it.

I could care less what Christian "scholars" think since they have been wrong about MANY crucial things.

Psalm 110:1 is no different than Psalm 16:10;

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
​

The speaker is clearly David, but he was certainly not speaking of himself as Peter and Paul taught in Acts.