• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

One Died For All

Status
Not open for further replies.

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Um...er...That would be called Direct Revelation. Apparently you don't understand the difference between exegesis (scholarship/human logic) versus the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
And the ministry of the Holy Spirit likewise operates in the born again with the gift of prophecy (teacher, preacher) in their scholarship and exegesis.
I'm not following your argument here. Bear in mind that we are indeed guilty in Adam. So for example if God says the sins of the parents will fall upon the children, that's actually righteous
Yes, it falls upon them because they continue in their own lives the sins of the father.
if the children are already guilty in Adam - they are really paying for their own sin.
They are made guilty by imputation, not through their personal incurment of his guilt, just as
we are made righteous by imputation, not through our personal incurment of rightness (Ro 5:18-19).
There is no re-incarnation taught in the Word of God written, therefore, there is no warrant for maintaining it, and any argument based on it is contra-Biblical.
Meaning God wanted to show the children some undeserved mercy but, since the parents angered Him by their sin, He brought it down upon the children's heads. Nothing wrong with that if they really sinned in Adam.
The question is
how do we legitimately construe "sin in Adam"? By representation/imputation? I think not. If a judge awarded you today a death sentence based on imputation/representation, you'd see it as unjust, even if the rep was your own father.
Finite man's reasoning again set over/above the revelation of the Word of God written. . .
No, because it's a remedied death sentence by the judge's imputation of guiltlessness to me if I trust him to take care of my death sentence for me.
You seem to be trying to handle my objection but I guess I'm just not following why you think you've resolved it. Feel free to clarify.
Assuming the objection to which you are referring is the rightness of God in imputing Adam's sin to his descendants, because it is wrong/unjust to hold one responsible for debt he did not personally incur:
I have shown by our own law and by Scripture (Lk 11:47-51) that it is just that the son be liable for the mortgage on his forefathers' building, which he did not personally incur, but now personally owes nevertheless.

How do you fail to see that according to Scripture (e.g., Lk 11:47-51), and even our own business law, one can be personally liable for debt one did not personally incur, as Adam's descendants are personally liable for Adam's debt to God's justice which they did not personally incur?

You do not refute my points, nor make Biblical demonstration of the error of my Biblical arguments, you simply declare all with which you disagree to be "refuted."

Assertion (of refutation) without (Biblical) demonstration is assertion without merit.

Your "refutations" are without merit.
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You're asking the wrong question. Prophecy works. If prophetic inspiration is unreliable, your bible is useless (go ahead and throw it away) since it was written by inspiration. The sort of question you should be asking is, "How did the prophets reliably recognize reliable-revelation?"
We are not the NT apostles of Jesus Christ nor the NT prophets who are the foundation of the church of which Jesus is the cornerstone (Eph 2:19-20).
.

And so it all begins with the fall of Satan, with evil.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
@Clare73,

Also whatever is your defense of imputation/representation, I would also need to know how it bypasses Ezekiel 18 where children are said to pay for their own sins, not those of their forefathers.
Good question. . .

Why did God change from Ex 34:7; Nu 14:18; Jer 32:8 to Eze 18:17b-20?
You will probably have to resolve that question before you can resolve your question regarding imputation in Ro 5:18-19.

As for me, the OT is to be understood in the light of the NT--the OT is the NT concealed, and the NT is the OT revealed.
In that light, I haven't looked into your question because it has never been a question for me.
God said it (in Scripture--2Tim 3:16), that settles it, I believe it.
But perhaps I will do that.

In the meantime, Ro 5:18-19 is very clear.
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We are not the NT apostles of Jesus Christ nor the NT prophets who are the foundation of the church of which Jesus is the cornerstone (Eph 2:19-20).
.
The cessationist's foundation-argument is a crock. Poor exegesis. You really need to read up on Direct Revelation. But I guess ignorance is bliss.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And the ministry of the Holy Spirit likewise operates in the born again with the gift of prophecy (teacher, preacher) in their scholarship and exegesis.
Confirmed. You really don't understand the difference between exegesis and prophecy. Wow.


They are made guilty by imputation, not through their personal incurment of his guilt, just as
we are made righteous by imputation, not through our personal incurment of rightness (Ro 5:18-19).
You ignored my six-point rebuttal of representation. We are NOT made righteous by imputation/representation. If Christ were our rep, the cross is unnecessary. (Sigh). As I explained, representation means that my status comes from the rep. Thus if Adam had remained innocent, I remain innocent (no need for Adam to die). Similarly, if Christ is my rep, I remain innocent as long as He remains innocent (no need for Christ to die).

Atoning death only make sense in a penal-based jurisprudence, NOT in a system of imputation/representation.

If you insist on conflating disparate concepts just to win a debate, I won't be able to continue conversing with you.

There is no re-incarnation taught in the Word of God written, therefore, there is no warrant for maintaining it, and any argument based on it is contra-Biblical.
The warrant is the same warrant that all exegetes use - the fact that logic and logical constructs are ALWAYS used in exegesis.

Also John the Baptist was almost certainly a piece of Elijah's soul reincarnated. He went forth in the "spirit" of Elijah (most scholars agree that "spirit" here is lower-case, and thus not the Holy Spirit). Jesus insisted that he was Elijah.

Also resurrection is not a far cry from reincarnation.

And you've done nothing to refute my argument that we are all reincarnations of Adam. Except shout your own bias.

Finite man's reasoning again set over/above the revelation of the Word of God written. . .
My finite reasoning/exegesis pitted against your finite reasoning/exegesis. And? Is there a point here?

No, because it's a remedial sentence when the same judge offers reprieve from that death sentence based on imputation of guilt to me, by his imputation of guiltlessness, based on my trusting him to take care of my death sentence for me.
Let me get this straight. Suppose someone rapes you or your daughter. For years you help the police search for him. Finally you find him and seek conviction. The judge decides, "I'm innocent, so I impute my righteousness to him. He's free to go."

That's your understanding of justice? You'll have to add something more here - you'll have to argue that the judge ATONED somehow (say by 39 lashes). I'm fine with the concept of atonement, but it's certainly not the same thing as imputation/representation. Those 2 systems of jurisprudence are distinct - stop conflating them.

But really all this misses the main point. You know in you heart of hearts that you should not be declared guilty for the sins of another - Ezekiel 18.

Assuming the objection to which you are referring is the rightness of God in imputing Adam's sin to his descendants, because it is wrong/unjust to hold one responsible for debt he did not personally incur:
I have shown by our own law and by Scripture (Lk 11:47-51) that it is just that the son be liable for the mortgage on his forefathers' building, which he did not personally incur, but now personally owes nevertheless.
I don't care if a 1,000 civilizations forced their children to pay for their parent's crimes. That doesn't make it right! See Ezekiel 18!!!

But as noted, God is warranted in allowing - even endorsing - such "injustice" (as a punishment) if the children are LEGITIMATELY guilty in Adam (and my theory of Adam defines legitimate guilt).

How do you fail to see that according to Scripture (e.g., Lk 11:47-51), and even our own law, one can be personally liable for debt one did not personally incur, as Adam's descendants are personally liable for Adam's debt to God's justice which they did not personally incur?
Please. I discussed that passage at great length. YOUR interpretation of it insinuates injustice of God, mine does not.
You do not refute my points, nor make Biblical demonstration of the error of my Biblical arguments, you simply declare all with which you disagree to be "refuted."
Assertion (of refutation) without (Biblical) demonstration is assertion without merit.
This is the problem. In your bias, you assume that your position is the "default" and thus your claim is, "If you don't prove your position 100%, mine MUST be true." Well, who elected YOU as the pope?
Your "refutations" are without merit.
.
Said the lady whose position flatly contradicts Ezekiel 18. You pay heed only to those verses that you "think" support your view. With that kind of attitude, how can anyone biblically demonstrate anything to you? Virtually impossible.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Good question. . .

Why did God change from Ex 34:7; Nu 14:18; Jer 32:8 to Eze 18:17b-20?
I recently addressed that. Not a problem for me.

If the children consciously/volitionally sinned in Adam (as my theory of Adam allows), then God can pretty much do with them anything He wants. So if the parents sin, that could occasion a suspension of (undeserved) divine mercies from the children, thus bringing the sins of the parents down upon the children. But in term of NET EFFECT, the children are ultimately suffering for their own volitional sin in Adam.

Also I have a second possible solution for those verses. Obviously, if we are reincarnations of Adam, the children of any generation might be, as well, reincarnations of their parents and forefathers (whether a piece of their soul or the whole thing). Obviously this would justify God in levying punishment on the children for the sins of their parents.

Why did God change from Ex 34:7; Nu 14:18; Jer 32:8 to Eze 18:17b-20?
God changes? He's not the same yesterday, today, and forever? You're not getting it. God's holiness isn't changing. His values don't change. The definition of justice doesn't change. Your way of dealing with Ezekiel 18 is to claim that God's justice changed? Next you're going to tell me that His definition of love changed? It's no longer a matter of kindness?

Look, find a position that is CONSISENT and MAKES SENSE. Oh that's right. That would be my position.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The cessationist's foundation-argument is a crock. Poor exegesis. You really need to read up on Direct Revelation. But I guess ignorance is bliss.
Assertion (of "crockness") without (Biblical) demonstration is assertion without merit.
.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Assertion (of "crockness") without (Biblical) demonstration is assertion without merit.
.
No, I've proposed to you multiple times that I am happy to provide you links to my threads, and I will even hunt down some individual posts for you. It's become pretty obvious that you don't want to take me up on my offer.

And by the way, I did provide you one verse on the primacy of Direct Revelation - you conveniently ignored it (at least I don't recall where you addressed it). Evangelism/witnessing is defined in the NT as Spirit-inspired speech (otherwise known as prophcy):

"It will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of my Father speaking through you" (Mat 10:20)

Let's take stock of this verse, shall we? Sola Scriptura is the claim that a Voice has no independent authority, you can't just presume it to be God. You need to take the time to "check it out with Scripture" and, even then, be hesitant to say, "Thus saith the Lord".

But if you understand what Jesus is saying in that verse (Mat 10:20), hesitation is NOT stipulated. You IMMEDIATELY speak as the Spirit gives the utterance (Pentecost being a great example). Nor is there any admonition from Christ to "check it out with Scripture" - or to challenge or doubt the accuracy, integrity, or reliability of the message. In no way, shape, or form.

That ONE verse is sufficient ground for rejecting Sola Scriptura (and there are plenty more). The cessationist hermeneutic is an absolute joke. Sorry I called it a crock - that was much too generous of me.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I recently addressed that. Not a problem for me.

If the children consciously/volitionally sinned in Adam (as my theory of Adam allows), then God can pretty much do with them anything He wants. So if the parents sin, that could occasion a suspension of (undeserved) divine mercies from the children, thus bringing the sins of the parents down upon the children. But in term of NET EFFECT, the children are ultimately suffering for their own volitional sin in Adam.
What is "sinned in Adam"?

Why don't you just take the Word of God in Ro 5:18-19 that both the sin of Adam and the righteousness of Jesus Christ are imputed to us?
Also I have a second possible solution for those verses. Obviously, if we are reincarnations of Adam, the children of any generation might be, as well, reincarnations of their parents and forefathers (whether a piece of their soul or the whole thing). Obviously this would justify God in levying punishment on the children for the sins of their parents.
Where does Scripture present reincarnation?
"Do not go beyond what is written." (1Co 4:6)
God changes? He's not the same yesterday, today, and forever? You're not getting it. God's holiness isn't changing. His values don't change. The definition of justice doesn't change. Your way of dealing with Ezekiel 18 is to claim that God's justice changed? Next you're going to tell me that His definition of love changed? It's no longer a matter of kindness?
More dodge in lieu of actually addressing the difficulty presented.
Look, find a position that is CONSISENT and MAKES SENSE. Oh that's right. That would be my position.
Less blame and more explain would be in order.

Your intellect operates with the speed of electricity, quickly arching from one concept to another.
Mine operates with the speed of a grinding wheel--exceedingly slow, but exceedingly fine.
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What is "sinned in Adam"?

Why don't you just take the Word of God in Ro 5:18-19 that both the sin of Adam and the righteousness of Jesus Christ are imputed to us?
I'm not opposed to imputation - depending on how the term is used. Typically imputation is used as a synonym for representation, and I've stated my reasons for rejecting representation/imputation as unjust. If you're still not clear on how the two systems differ (Atonement vs Reprsentation) I'll give one more example here.

First, imputation: Suppose you get a speeding ticket. You march into the tax collector offers proclaiming, "I'm not going to pay it!" They ask, why not? Because my father is innocent. He always drives safely, and he is my rep. His innocence is imputed to me.

Second, atonement. Again, they ask you, why aren't you going to pay the ticket? This time you respond, "Because my father atoned for me. He labored extra hours in the field shedding his own blood, sweat, and tears and, with the extra money he earned, he marched into this office yesterday and paid the ticket. Check your ledger." That's what Christ did for us - He shed His own blood, sweat, and tears. That's atonement. THAT is the teaching of Romans 5.

You'll reply, "Nonetheless, Adam's sin is imputed to us in Romans 5." No it's not. Adam is not our rep. If Adam is our rep, our sin has no moral status - it wouldn't even be MENTIONED in Romans 5. But Paul says,

"Death came to all people, because all sinned" (verse 12).

WHEN did all these infants in? When Pau wrote those words, there were many pregnant women in his generation. WHEN did those fetus sin? Paul tells us - they did so in Adam. The NECESSARY conclusion - there is no other - is that all of us, back then, WERE Adam.

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23).

Again, WHEN? When did all the infants sin?

Again:

"Death came to all people, because all sinned" (verse 12).

Notice what he did NOT say:

"Death came to all people, because Adam is our representative"

Also you run into a logical contradiction if you try to declare both Adam and Christ as our rep. How can we have 2 reps simultaneously? Behaving differently? Which rep determines our outcome? Doesn't make sense.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Confirmed. You really don't understand the difference between exegesis and prophecy. Wow.
I understand that no prophecy of God will disagree with the Word of God written, taken in its entirety.
I understand that what one thinks is prophecy may simply be imagination.
You ignored my six-point rebuttal of representation. We are NOT made righteous by imputation/representation.
Your rebuttal was not a Biblical demonstration.
Also John the Baptist was almost certainly a piece of Elijah's soul reincarnated. He went forth in the "spirit" of Elijah (most scholars agree that "spirit" here is lower-case, and thus not the Holy Spirit). Jesus insisted that he was Elijah.
Elijah in the sense that John the Baptist was Elijah's parallel.
In the OT, Joshua followed Moses to finish his work, and Elisha followed Elijah to finish his work
In the NT, Jesus (Joshua) followed John the Baptist (Elijah) to complete God's saving work.
Also resurrection is not a far cry from reincarnation.
Jesus is the pattern of resurrection. The one and only Son of God went into the grave, and the one and only Son of God rose from the dead. The one and only Son of God was never anyone but the one and only Son of God.
And you've done nothing to refute my argument that we are all reincarnations of Adam. Except shout your own bias.
You view John the Baptist as a reincarnation of Elijah, while I view John the Baptist as a parallel of Elijah.
You view resurrection as close to reincarnation, while I view resurrection as disallowing incarnation.
My bias regarding us all being reincarnations of Adam is grounded in it being nowhere presented in the Word of God written.
Suppose someone rapes you or your daughter. For years you help the police search for him. Finally you find him and seek conviction. The judge decides, "I'm innocent, so I impute my righteousness to him. He's free to go."
That's your understanding of justice? You'll have to add something more here - you'll have to argue that the judge ATONED somehow (say by 39 lashes). I'm fine with the concept of atonement, but it's certainly not the same thing as imputation/representation.
Those 2 systems of jurisprudence are distinct - stop conflating them.
Where did you get that idea?
The atonement itself is not imputed, the results/benefits of the atonement are imputed.

I agree that the Word of God does not state "imputation" of Adam's sin in Ro 5:18.
But it clearly demonstrates imputation of Adam's sin in Ro 5:12-14, where since sin is transgression of the law, before the law was given sin was not accounted, and yet all from Adam to Moses died anyway. Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23), so whose sin is responsible for their death?
Adam's sin is (Ro 5:15).

But Scripture does state imputation of Abraham's righteousness by faith (Ge 15:6).
The same righteousness imputed to Abraham by faith is also the righteousness resulting from our faith.
Hence, the word "imputed" is used in regard to us being made righteous, through our faith, by Christ's obedience (Ro 5:19).
And since Ro 5:18 regarding our condemnation is a parallel of Ro 5:19 regarding our righteousness,
the imputation of righteousness in Ro 5:19 (from Ge 15:6) is also used
of the imputation of sin (from Ro 5:12-14) in Ro 5:18.
But really all this misses the main point. You know in you heart of hearts that you should not be declared guilty for the sins of another - Ezekiel 18.
The main point with me is God's truth revealed in Scripture, and you are not dealing with God's truth in Ro 5:12-14, which specifically demonstrates imputation.
Please. I discussed that passage (Lk 11:48-51) at great length. YOUR interpretation of it insinuates injustice of God, mine does not.
You did not deal with the principle it plainly presents--responsibility of the Jews in Jesus' lifetime for the murder of all the prophets from the beginning of the world (Lk 11:50-51).
This is the problem. In your bias, you assume that your position is the "default" and thus your claim is, "If you don't prove your position 100%, mine MUST be true." Well, who elected YOU as the pope?
Are you deliberately misrepresenting me?
Mine is not the default. You did not address my demonstration from Scripture
and demonstrate that it is not true.
You don't want to do that, therefore, my demonstration stands.

"Your refutations are without merit". . .Said the lady whose position flatly contradicts Ezekiel 18.
It is Jesus that contradicts Eze 18.
Can you show me how he does not in Lk 11:50-51?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I understand that no prophecy of God will disagree with the Word of God written, taken in its entirety.
I understand that what one thinks is prophecy may simply be imagination.
(Sigh) Again, that should be posed as a question. How did prophets like Paul know the difference? Was Paul making wild random guesses when he wrote Romans? And Moses, when he wrote the Pentateuch? Obviously random-guess "prophecy" doesn't work. You keep repeating that "argument" as if everyone around here is too stupid to figure that out for themselves. And that's why I keep accusing you of making silly objections to Direct Revelation.

Your rebuttal was not a Biblical demonstration.
Gotcha. You only count your own arguments as "biblical demonstration" even when they are so far out in left field that no one even can follow your reasoning.

Elijah in the sense that John the Baptist was Elijah's parallel.
Well duh - of course that's what you believe, as you're not open to reincarnation. But the historian Luke said he had the spirit/soul of Elijah, as I noted, AND Jesus said that he is Elijah. That's already two strikes against. Now here's the third:

"14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come."

The wording here is crucial. Bear in mind that ANY prophet, in virtue of being a prophet, already qualifies as a type/parallel of Elijah. Thus if Jesus were merely speaking of typology/parallelism, the allusion to Elijah would NOT be difficult to accept - in fact it would essentially be a a tautology (a self-evident statement). Jesus is therefore referring to something DIFFICULT for some of us to accept (such as reincarnation). One commentator said something like this (I think it was Albert Barnes), paraphrased:

"Whatever Jesus meant by this statement, it was definitely something that many people would have difficulty accepting".

Three strikes and you're out.

Look I realize that reincarnation is considered a dirty word due to the presumed affiliation with eastern religions. But the reality is that all religions have similarities - what's important, therefore, are not the similarities but the differences. In that sense, Christianity is quite unique.

The one and only Son of God was never anyone but the one and only Son of God.
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not postulating a change of identity as eastern religions do. When I say that we are reincarnations of Adam, I mean that we ARE Adam. There was no change of identity. In fact, if I believed there were a change of identity, I would consider myself innocent of Adam's sin.


My bias regarding us all being reincarnations of Adam is grounded in it being nowhere presented in the Word of God written.
(Sigh) Any number of logical constructs, including the Trinity, are not explicit in Scripture. Exegesis was a logical construct starting from the day you first put your trust in a lexicon created by fallible men. You conveniently continue to ignore such facts.

Where did you get that idea?
The atonement itself is not imputed, the results/benefits of the atonement are imputed.
Is this another unconvincing effort to conflate two different justice systems?
(1) Atonement
(2) Representation/Imputation

Just because Reformed theology has been pushing that nonsense-conflation on us for 500 years, doesn't make it right.

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23), so whose sin is responsible for their death?
Adam's sin is (Ro 5:15).
That's like arguing that Christ should have been incriminated as a descendant of Adam. Oh but I see how it works. Your God is a chameleon who "changes" (your word) when it suits Him. He cruelly incriminated all the OTHER descendants of Adam but left His own Son intact.

But Scripture does state imputation of Abraham's righteousness by faith (Ge 15:6).

The same righteousness imputed to Abraham by faith is also the righteousness resulting from our faith.
Hence, the word "imputed" is used in regard to us being made righteous, through our faith, by Christ's obedience (Ro 5:19).
(Sigh) As stated, I have no issue with the idea of imputation in the sense of righteousness being credited to us by virtue of ATONEMENT. I even gave a speeding ticket as an example!

And in that same example I explained the difference between 2 different usages of the word "imputation"
(1) Atonement
(2) Represenation.

You did not deal with the principle it plainly presents--responsibility of the Jews in Jesus' lifetime for the murder of all the prophets from the beginning of the world (Lk 11:50-51).
Sure I did. If God can divide one physical soul (Adam) into 100 billion descendants - if we are all pieces of Adam - then Christ's contemporaries could easily have been pieces of prophet-slaying murders stretching back to the beginning of the world. There is no impossibility here.

And that's not the only solution, by the way. Remember, if we consciously sinned in Adam, as my theory of Adam insists, then God can hold us responsible for ANYTHING (as long as He doesn't punish us beyond our guilt accumulated in Adam).

The point is that neither of those solutions are in tension with Ezekiel 18. Each person, ultimately, pays for his own sins.

It is Ro 5:12-14 which "contradicts" Eze 18.
Can you show from Ro 5:12-14 that it does not?
Admitting to a contradiction in your position is not a solution for it.


And talk about ignoring objections! You keep ignoring the Problem of Evil! How can it be maximum kindness, generosity, and justice to incriminate 100 billion innocent descendants of Adam? The more I reflect on the absolute absurdity of your position, the less inclined I am to continue this discussion with you. If you want to believe complete nonsense for the rest of your life, that's your prerogative.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is Ro 5:12-14 which "contradicts" Eze 18.
Can you show from Ro 5:12-14 that it does not?
Superficial treatments of the Problem of Evil have cast a dark shadow over Christianity that hardens the hearts of unbelievers even to this day. Even believers are affected.

Let's start with myself as a case in point. For several months a team of intercessors prayed for me to get saved. I eventually began to fear going to hell if I did not accept Christ's atonement. I accepted Christ into my heart. Did I have any love for God? None. I hated Him. I couldn't imagine what kind of evil monster would create a world entrenched in suffering on account of two ancestors named Adam and Eve. During my early months as I Christian, I had little hope that I would ever come to love Him. (Back then I had never heard the term 'Problem of Evil', I was just reacting to the world as I saw it with my own eyes).

Many years later I met a Christian woman who told me that, in her twenties, faced with the same harsh reality, she tried to commit suicide, even as a Christian.

By failing to resolve the Problem of Evil, the church has further hardened atheists to the gospel. They regard the Bible as a contradiction in terms, complete nonsense, which is precisely how I felt even as a young Christian.

I can predict your reply, "The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing." True, but YOUR kind of gospel seemed like foolishness to me even after I got saved. And still seems that way today.

Let's not make it any harder, than it already is, for atheists to open their hearts to the gospel.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm not opposed to imputation - depending on how the term is used. Typically imputation is used as a synonym for representation, and I've stated my reasons for rejecting representation/imputation as unjust. If you're still not clear on how the two systems differ (Atonement vs Reprsentation) I'll give one more example here.

First, imputation: Suppose you get a speeding ticket. You march into the tax collector offers proclaiming, "I'm not going to pay it!" They ask, why not? Because my father is innocent. He always drives safely, and he is my rep. His innocence is imputed to me.

Second, atonement. Again, they ask you, why aren't you going to pay the ticket? This time you respond, "Because my father atoned for me. He labored extra hours in the field shedding his own blood, sweat, and tears and, with the extra money he earned, he marched into this office yesterday and paid the ticket. Check your ledger." That's what Christ did for us - He shed His own blood, sweat, and tears. That's atonement. THAT is the teaching of Romans 5.

You'll reply, "Nonetheless, Adam's sin is imputed to us in Romans 5." No it's not. Adam is not our rep. If Adam is our rep, our sin has no moral status - it wouldn't even be MENTIONED in Romans 5.
But Paul says,

"Death came to all people, because all sinned" (verse 12).

WHEN did all these infants in? When Paulwrote those words, there were many pregnant
women in his generation. WHEN did those fetus sin? Paul tells us - they did so in Adam. The NECESSARY conclusion - there is no other - is that all of us, back then, WERE Adam.

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23).

Again, WHEN? When did all the infants sin?

Again: "Death came to all people, because all sinned" (verse 12).
Okay, but you stopped short of his argument.
"All sinned" here (Ro 5:12) is not a repetition of Ro 3:23.

Ro 3:22-24 reads: "All who believe. . .are justified freely. . ."where, taken in context (3:9-24)
"there is no difference (between Jews and Gentiles, v.9)
for all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
is parenthetical.

The context of 5:12-21 shows that Adam's sin involved all mankind in
condemnation (vv. 18-19) and death (v.15)
Notice what he did NOT say:

"Death came to all people, because Adam is our representative"

Also you run into a logical contradiction if you try to declare both Adam and Christ as our rep. How can we have 2 reps simultaneously? Behaving differently? Which rep determines our outcome? Doesn't make sense.
I don't do "representative."
I do straight-out imputation of Adam's sin directly to each and every one when they come into being.
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Superficial treatments of the Problem of Evil have cast a dark shadow over Christianity that hardens the hearts of unbelievers even to this day. Even believers are affected.

Let's start with myself as a case in point. For several months a team of intercessors prayed for me to get saved. I eventually began to fear going to hell if I did not accept Christ's atonement. I accepted Christ into my heart. Did I have any love for God? None. I hated Him. I couldn't imagine what kind of evil monster would create a world entrenched in suffering on account of two ancestors named Adam and Eve. During my early months as I Christian, I had little hope that I would ever come to love Him. (Back then I had never heard the term 'Problem of Evil', I was just reacting to the world as I saw it with my own eyes).

Many years later I met a Christian woman who told me that, in her twenties, faced with the same harsh reality, she tried to commit suicide, even as a Christian.

By failing to resolve the Problem of Evil, the church has further hardened atheists to the gospel. They regard the Bible as a contradiction in terms, complete nonsense, which is precisely how I felt even as a young Christian.
I can predict your reply, "The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing." True, but YOUR kind of gospel seemed like foolishness to me even after I got saved. And still seems that way today.
Yes, that is my reply, making your disagreement one between you and NT revelation.
It might be worth noting that it is atheists who find NT revelation to be foolish, while millions and millions over the centuries find "my kind of gospel" to be the power of God (1Co 1:18).
Let's not make it any harder, than it already is, for atheists to open their hearts to the gospel.
Our job is to present the gospel, it is the Holy Spirit's job to make it real to them.
He doesn't do that for everyone. . .but you know that.
.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The context of 5:12-21 shows that Adam's sin involved all mankind in condemnation (vv. 18-19) and death (v.15)
Precisely as my theory of Adam stipulates. Except yours, being representational, is of dubious harmony with Paul's claim that all actually sinned, including fetuses. My ontology handles that point perfectly.

I don't do "representative."
I do straight-out imputation of Adam's sin directly to each and every one when they come into being.
.
(Sigh). Same thing. You're just nitpicking my terminology. Representation simply means that 100 billion innocent people are declared guilty. That IS your position.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, that is my reply, making your disagreement one between you and NT revelation.
Yet another strawman. I am not talking about accepting the specifics of the gospel. I am talking about even being willing to entertain the existence of God. Atheists don't even want to let us tell them about the gospel - they won't even let the conversation with us begin - because the Problem of Evil persuades them that no God exists.

Our job is to present the gospel, it is the Holy Spirit's job to make it real to them.
He doesn't do that for everyone. . .but you know that.
.
Actually our responsibility is a bit more than that. We are to behave in a way that makes the gospel more appealing to them - several verses attest to this responsibility. Intellectually dishonest treatments of the Problem of Evil just make us look like liars to them, and sustain a dark shadow over Christianity. None of this makes the gospel more appealing to them.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
(Sigh) Again, that should be posed as a question. How did prophets like Paul know the difference? Was Paul making wild random guesses when he wrote Romans? And Moses, when he wrote the Pentateuch?
Prophets heard the voice of God and saw visions.
Paul received his revelation in the third heaven (2Co 12:2), and
Moses (and Aaron) received instruction from the voice of God
(Lev 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1, 33, 15:1, 16:1,
17:1, 18:1, 19:1, 20:1, 21:1, 16, 22:1, 17, 26, 23:1, 9, 23, 26, 33, 24:1, 25:1, 27:1).

So Direct Revelation is actually hearing the voice of God and actually seeing visions?
Obviously random-guess "prophecy" doesn't work. You keep repeating that "argument" as if everyone around here is too stupid to figure that out for themselves. And that's why I keep accusing you of making silly objections to Direct Revelation.

Gotcha. You only count your own arguments as "biblical demonstration" even when they are so far out in left field that no one even can follow your reasoning.
If you are referring to Lk 11:47-51, I don't find what Jesus said in Lk 11:50-51
to be far out in left field.
I find its principle comporting with our own laws which, in some cases, do hold men personally responsible for debt they did not personally incur. Why is that so hard for you to accept?
Well duh - of course that's what you believe, as you're not open to reincarnation. But the historian Luke said he had the spirit/soul of Elijah, as I noted, AND Jesus said that he is Elijah. That's already two strikes against. Now here's the third:

"14And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come."
Okay, that's not about reincarnation.
John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah (Lk 1:17),
announcing a spiritual kingdom of spiritual power, if you accept it (Mt 11:14-15),
a parallel of Elijah (Mt 17:13, 15) whose work (John's work) Jesus (Joshua) came to finish,
as Elisha came to finish Elijah's work.
The wording here is crucial. Bear in mind that ANY prophet, in virtue of being a prophet, already qualifies as a type/parallel of Elijah. Thus if Jesus were merely speaking of typology/parallelism, the allusion to Elijah would NOT be difficult to accept - in fact it would essentially be a a tautology (a self-evident statement). Jesus is therefore referring to something DIFFICULT for some of us to accept (such as reincarnation). One commentator said something like this (I think it was Albert Barnes), paraphrased:

"Whatever Jesus meant by this statement, it was definitely something that many people would have difficulty accepting".

Three strikes and you're out.
Yes, what was difficult to accept was not reincarnation, but that the kingdom was not earthly,
and was entered only through faith in Jesus (Jn 3:16, 38).

No strikes in mine above, all is compatible with the entire Bible.
(Sigh) Any number of logical constructs, including the Trinity, are not explicit in Scripture.
Agreed. . .but the evidence therein is overwhelming, as I demonstrate in post #525.
Exegesis was a logical construct starting from the day you first put your trust in a lexicon created by fallible men. You conveniently continue to ignore such facts.
Is this another unconvincing effort to conflate two different justice systems?
(1) Atonement
(2) Representation/Imputation
"What we have here is a failure to communicate." (Cool Hand Luke, with Paul Newman)
You are right. . .I do not understand your distinction, or its import.
Would you please "dumb it down" for the grinding wheel. Thanks.
Oh but I see how it works. Your God is a chameleon who "changes" (your word) when it suits Him. He cruelly incriminated all the OTHER descendants of Adam but left His own Son intact.
Following his own laws. . the atoning sacrifice had to be without flaw or imperfection.
Fallen nature is a flaw.
The point is that neither of those solutions are in tension with Ezekiel 18. Each person, ultimately, pays for his own sins.
Hope to be looking into that.
And talk about ignoring objections! You keep ignoring the Problem of Evil! How can it be maximum kindness, generosity, and justice to incriminate 100 billion innocent descendants of Adam? The more I reflect on the absolute absurdity of your position,
And yet, Paul, who received his revelation in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-9), presents it so
(Ro 5:12-14) when he
informs that the death of those from Adam to Moses was the result of sin,
even when sin was not accounted to them because there was no law to sin against.

You can't get around Paul's revelation there, and its basis for his revelation of
Adam's sin being imputed to all his descendants.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,349
7,568
North Carolina
✟346,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What R.C. Sproul said bears repeating. The Problem of Evil cannot be solved by traditional theology, traditional assumptions. He had no solution.

At least he was honest about it.
Agreed. . .it can't be resolved on man's terms, but
it is resolved in the context of the whole counsel of God.

So okay. . .jes' between you and me. . .

"God has bound all men (Jew and Gentile) over to (locked up in) sin, so that
he may have mercy on them all (Jew and Gentile)." (Ro 11:32)

The glory DUE God is more important than the salvation of men; i.e.,
the glory of God's justice is more important than the salvation of all men (Ro 9:22),
for the glory of his mercy is in the salvation of some men (Ro 9:23).

There is no running from God but by running to him,
no fleeing from his justice but by fleeing to his mercy.

And all is precisely as he ordained.

Run, Forest, run!
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.