One day, skipping through the Book of Revelation... I found:

[The Righterzpen]

I've been working on a Bible study in the book of Revelation for 5 or so years now and got some observations I'm looking to "bounce off" some Amillennialists.

(Now how to condense and simplify this so we don't get "stuck in the weeds" too much?)

The Atonement:
Let me start with conclusions I've come to regarding the atonement:

1. Appearance of the Angel to the father of John the Baptist to Herod the Great trying to kill Jesus. That time span actually fits into 1290 days in Daniel

2. Appearance of the Angel to the father of John the Baptist to Jesus returning from Egypt when Jesus was about 5 years old. That time span fits into the 1335 days in Daniel

3. The Herodian Dynasty are some of the kings described in Daniel. They conflict against the religious segment of 1st century Jewish society that were the scribes, pharisees, sadducees etc. These are the combating political segments described in Daniel. Herod the Great is the "king destroyed without hands" (historically, he exploded of venereal infection in 4 BC) and Agrippa 1 is the king struck down by God. (Acts 12:23)

4. the 70 weeks of Daniel 9: There's 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and Pentecost. Pentecost is called "the consummation" in the book of Daniel.

5. What's commonly called "the great tribulation" in todays "eschatological terms" was "the passion week". Daniel describes it as "one week".

Friday: Before the crucifixion, Mary anoints Jesus's feet.

Saturday: Was the sabbath

Sunday: Triumphal entry into Jerusalem.

Monday / Tuesday: Jesus heals and casts out demons in the temple.
Tuesday prior to sundown Satan is kicked out of heaven. (John 12:31)
Tuesday evening after sundown Jesus has dinner at the house of Simon the leper and an anonymous woman pours oil over his head. He states "She's done this for my burial.
Technically post sundown we are into Wednesday. This is "the middle of the week Messiah is cut off". (Daniel 9:26)
This commences "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". Exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later Jesus is dead.

Wednesday: Washing the disciples' feet.

Thursday: Commences preparation for the Passover.
Jesus institutes communion.
1st goes to "the winter garden". First attempt to arrest him. He says "I Am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6)
2nd goes to Gethsemane. (A "gethsemane" was a cave where they housed olive presses. There were several of them in the Mount of Olives.)
While in "Gethsemane Jesus is confronted by an angel who "strengthens" him. (Luke 22:43) It is midnight and according to Exodus; this would have been "the angel of death" (personification of God in His wrath). Jesus's soul is consigned to Sheol where he preaches to the "spirits in prison". (1 Peter 3:19) Now because Jesus has a Divine nature, he doesn't die from that experience.
3rd Jesus is arrested
4th Trial before Sanhedrin
(Peter's denial was probably about 3 AM. The "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowing" was two trumpet blasts that sounded maybe 5 to 10 minutes apart. It was to call Roman soldiers to watch.)
5th trial before Pilate

Friday: now according to the Romans because the sun came up:
6th Jesus is scourged
7th Jesus is presented to the people.
8th Ordered crucifixion.
9th crucified at 9AM
The "great tribulation" ends some time before noon. It's "cut short" because if it was not "no flesh would be saved". (Matthew 24:22)
Noon - sun goes dark (Goes dark from the opening of the bottomless pit. Revelation 9:2)
"Immediately after the tribulation shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give its light....."
All in the cosmos (heaven, earth, Sheol / Hades) are watching what's going on.
3 PM - sun comes back. Jesus has accomplished the atonement. Says "it is finished".
Jesus dies.
Earthquake.
Jesus's soul ascends to heaven. (Coming in the clouds of glory to the Ancient of Days - Daniel 7:13)
Redeemed souls released from Sheol ascend into heaven. (Revelation 7:14)
Jesus appears in heaven as "the lamb slain" to open the scrolls.
Jesus body goes in the tomb.

Saturday: Rests on the Sabbath

Sunday: Rises from the dead.
At the point Jesus rises from the dead he's given all power and authority. (Ephesians 1)
This commences the "millennial reign".

50 Days later is Pentecost. This is the sealing of the elect spoken of in Revelation before the 4 winds release the demonic forces that deceive the condemned.
This is also "the wedding of the lamb" / (Parable of the 10 virgins?) (The "marriage" is "consummated" via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; despite the "final ceremony" hasn't happened yet. (That's the new heavens and the new earth; IE resurrected bodies.)

As the writing of Scripture unfolds we find out Judas was the "son of perdition". (John 17:12)

Now thus, my current pieces of information I just found / noticed:

Somewhere between the resurrection and Pentecost; the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire.
(Didn't realize the Lake of Fire existed before the end of time.)

At this point the unregenerate left in hades / Sheol are not cast into the Lake of Fire because the final resurrection has not happened yet.

The Word of God "goes to war" (King on the white horse.) in the proclamation of the gospel; the nations are "ruled with a rod of iron". Kingdom of Satan is plundered and the believer takes back their rightful place of dominion over the earth and Satan. (Having been translated out of the kingdom of Darkness.)

The Old Testament system is dismantled. (The temple is destroyed in 70 AD.) Babylon "the mother of harlots" is Jerusalem.

Over the course of New Testament history the 2nd beast is manifest (2nd beast followed the 1st) (Revelation 13)
Satan is the "8th king" (Revelation 17:11) who "resurrects" this 1st century "beast system" into a global entity. This commences with the loosing of Satan at the end of the millennium. (Which I think has happened in the past probably about 150 years. Noah built the ark on 120 years. Which we're in that "ball park".)

So, details in Revelation that didn't dawn on me before.

Curious what other Amillennialists may have to add to this?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Just curious where in the bible does it state a millennial reign in comparison to the 1000 year reign mentioned in Revelation when Jesus will reign for 1000 years on Earth?

Edit this is purely a question out of curiosity I am by no means trying to argue, just wondering is all

 

[The Righterzpen]

Just curious where in the bible does it state a millennial reign in comparison to the 1000 year reign mentioned in Revelation when Jesus will reign for 1000 years on Earth?

Edit this is purely a question out of curiosity I am by no means trying to argue, just wondering is all

The phrase "1000 years" in Revelation is actually in the plural. From what I can make out of the Greek, it appears to be a "duel" 1000 (or 2000 years). Well the 2000th year from the resurrection would be 2033 AD. Does that have any relevance? (I don't know.)

If you want to know where it says "1000 years"; that's mostly Revelation 20.

There's a couple other interesting verses: (1000 years is as a day and a day is as 1000 years). Well, interesting caveat to that is The 3.5 days the witnesses in Revelation are "dead in the streets". Is it mere coincidence that humanity has had written Scripture for nearly 3500 years.

Another interesting passage (which I'm not sure of it's relevance?) Is Ecclesiastes 6:6. It talks about "a wicked man" "though he may live 1000 years two fold". Not sure the connection there either, but it's got to be in the Bible for a reason.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

The phrase "1000 years" in Revelation is actually in the plural. From what I can make out of the Greek, it appears to be a "duel" 1000 (or 2000 years). Well the 2000th year from the resurrection would be 2033 AD. Does that have any relevance? (I don't know.)

If you want to know where it says "1000 years"; that's mostly Revelation 20.

There's a couple other interesting verses: (1000 years is as a day and a day is as 1000 years). Well, interesting caveat to that is The 3.5 days the witnesses in Revelation are "dead in the streets". Is it mere coincidence that humanity has had written Scripture for nearly 3500 years.

Another interesting passage (which I'm not sure of it's relevance?) Is Ecclesiastes 6:6. It talks about "a wicked man" "though he may live 1000 years two fold". Not sure the connection there either, but it's got to be in the Bile for a reason.

I hear you I love the 1000 year as a day and a day as a 1000 years. I do believe that Jesus began to reign when He ascended to Heaven after the resurrection, but personally I believe the 1000 year reign will happen after the rapture and be on the Earth where people can physically see Jesus

 

[The Righterzpen]

I hear you I love the 1000 year as a day and a day as a 1000 years. I do believe that Jesus began to reign when He ascended to Heaven after the resurrection, but personally I believe the 1000 year reign will happen after the rapture and be on the Earth where people can physically see Jesus

Well in order to really understand what happens at the end of time; requires digging through some Bible passages.

For example; we know there's "last days" and then there's "last day". At Pentecost, Peter had stated that what Joel had prophesied of "the last days" had now commenced. The "last days" had begun sometime between the resurrection and Pentecost.

There's about 1/2 a dozen places in the bible though where the term "last day" (singular day) is used. It is the "last day" of time. Jesus references it in several passages (John 6:39-54) Jesus makes many references to those he'll raise "on the last day".

There's another passage in reference to the raising of Lazarus. (John 11:24) Martha says she knows Lazarus will live again "on the last day" and Jesus says: "I am the resurrection." But note that Jesus doesn't "correct" Martha's eschatology. He doesn't say: "Oh Martha, there's a rapture and 1000 year reign between that and Judgement Day."

Then you have John 12:48 where Jesus states that Judgement Day is on "the last day".

Then you can go to the phrase "last trump" and you find the same thing. The 7th trump in Revelation is the last trump. The "last trump" commences the return of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:52) The 7th trump commences Judgement Day. (Revelation 10:6-7) The sequence about the trumpets begins in Revelation 8. By the time we get to Revelation 10:6-7 there's "time no more" (King James translation - Not sure where other translations get "no more delay"? None of those words are ever translated "delay" anywhere else.)

There's some sort of sequence that happens with Judgement Day that apparently takes place "outside of time" because "time" is finished. There's the final resurrection, the dead are judged and the cosmos is recreated. That all happens "the last day" / "the last trump" which all correlates with the return of Christ.

Then we have Matthew 25:31-49. In that sequence, clearly Jesus is judging all of the dead at the same time. Verse 31 says: "When the Son of Man shall come in his glory".... "sit on the throne of his glory". Jesus only "returns" once. He doesn't "return" for the church and than "return" a second time to judge the dead. That's one event that happens "on the last day" / at the "last trump". We can figure this out by stringing together all these Bible passages.

So no, there is no secret rapture where Jesus removes believers who are spared from living through "the tribulation". Who ever is alive on earth be they believers or not lives through what ever sequence of events transpired before Jesus returns.

Also, think about the language "return in glory" and "sit on his throne". When does Christ "sit down"? (When His work is done.) Now go back to Moses and cleft of the rock event. Moses wanted to see God in His glory and God said "You can't see my face and live." And that's because a corrupt universe can not stand in God's holy presence. So it's reasonable to conclude that the return of Christ in glory is actually what causes the destruction of the cosmos.

2 Peter 3:10 The day that Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" the cosmos is destroyed. The same terminology "thief in the night" is used in 1 Thessalonians 5:2. Verse 4: "But you are not in darkness that the day should overtake you." Verse 9: God has not appointed us to wrath. If you go back and look at 2 Peter 3; you'll see that "not appointed to wrath" has to do with Judgement Day, not a "pre-rapture tribulation period".

So yeah, if you pay close attention to the details of the passages, you can glean a lot of information about what happens when Christ returns.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I agree we are in the last days, but as you said a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years sa day to the lord, and no one knows the day or the hour so there's that, and you're right that he doesn't correct mary, I've always wondered, Jesus knowing all things, chose a specific group of lessons and parables to share before going to Heaven again.

As far as there being no rapture what about the verse in Matthew 24:39"That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I agree we are in the last days, but as you said a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years sa day to the lord, and no one knows the day or the hour so there's that, and you're right that he doesn't correct mary, I've always wondered, Jesus knowing all things, chose a specific group of lessons and parables to share before going to Heaven again.

As far as there being no rapture what about the verse in Matthew 24:39"That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

That's a very good question actually!

Something very interesting happens in Matthew 24 between verse 34 and verse 35.

Verse 34 says "This generation shall not pass until these things be fulfilled." Meaning all the verses before 34; the generation that was contemporary to Jesus's earthly life would see those things come to pass.

Look at verse 35 though; "Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not." So from verse 35 on, is addressing the destruction of the cosmos. We know this because Jesus makes this distinction right here in this verse "Heaven and earth shall pass away..."

Now everything that follows verse 35 is addressing events at the end of time.

Verse 36 Jesus say no one knows the day or the hour (that heavens and earth will pass away). Hold that thought though because something very interesting happens in the book of acts just before the ascension.

He talks about his coming being like the days of Noah. And he contextualizes that idea as just as it was in the days of Noah that they knew not "what hit them" until the flood came and washed them all away.

Then he goes into the verse that you quoted. Just as the people in Noah's day didn't know their condemnation was upon them; neither do the non-elect know that the proverbial stinky stuff is about to hit the fan.

Two are in the field (most likely meaning church context". Two are proclaiming the gospel / doing mission work etc etc etc. One is "taken" (translated) the other is not. Same concept of the next verse. "Two women grinding at the mill". They are "treading out the corn" / they are involved in proselytizing people. One is translated the other is left behind.

Now take a look at 1 Thessalonians 5. Those who are not in darkness. That day does not overtake them. They are ready for it. Now fundamentally they are ready for Judgement Day because they've already been judged in Christ.

The context of "those taken" and "those left" is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:51. At the last trump the dead will be raised incorruptible and we (who are believers still alive on earth) shall be changed. We are translated as the resurrected believers ascend. Apparently those who have heard the gospel and believed on Christ are the first to be resurrected. Believers "meet Christ in the air" and He descends to earth with His people.

And here's where it gets interesting!

All the dead are raised and He sits on His throne and separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep are those who obeyed God, the goats are those who didn't. Now there's an interesting nuance here, because there are people whom Jesus atoned for, who've never heard of him. There are generations and whole nations who've lived and died, who've never been in a place and time where they had received the written word of God. Having never heard the gospel though does not preclude one from having been atoned for though. (Atonement is the only way one is declared righteous before God; because "all have sinned")

And it appears that the "next round" of dividing the elect from the reprobate is this process.

Interesting verse I recently found in Revelation. Revelation 11:18. Note who's listed in this passage:

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There are 3 groups of people here. "The prophets" (those who proclaim the word of God. "The saints" (those who obey the extent of written revelation they received). And "those who fear thy name" (Those who were "a law unto themselves" because they obeyed the law even when they didn't have it. (Romans 2:14)

So just because the language in Matthew 24:39-41 speaks of those taken (translated) as opposed to those left behind; does not mean that is a "pre-trib rapture event". That is an interpretation someone inserted into that passage. We know this because we know "the last trump" / "the last day" / "there is time no more" / Jesus returns. It all happens in the context of the components of one event.

Now; the book of Acts. I told you to keep in the back of your mind the "no man knows the day or the hour".

Acts 1:7 Jesus says to the disciples: "its not for you to know the times or seasons which the Father put in his own power". Keep in mind this statement is now post Christ's resurrection. Do you suppose that when Jesus rose from the dead; form that point on, he know "the day and the hour"? If all power and authority was given to him at the resurrection (Ephesians 1) than he would also know when the end of time would be. Note Jesus doesn't say that he doesn't know the day or the hour at that point.

Yet in Scripture apparently we have enough information that those "who are not in darkness" are not overtaken by Judgement Day. And that is regardless of whether or not they may have suspected a certain point of end. Or in other words; when the end does come they are not surprised.

So assuming Jesus knew the day and the hour from the point of the resurrection on; does enough revelation come to light that "the day or the hours" is "ball park predictable" even if not exactly known. It's a good question. I don't know the answer.

Other passages though do give us some other clues as to what the state of the church in particular is as the end comes. The church is overtaken by mass apostasy. The "drunk" "gluttons" are "beating" the other servants. They are saying to themselves "the Lord delays his coming". There are lots of lying signs and wonders "that if it were possible they would deceive the very elect". God has sent them strong delusion that they should believe a lie.

The beast described in Revelation 13 "rematerializes" a "head". The 2nd beast (who has "horns like a lamb but speaks as the dragon" - Think about that metaphorically.) tells the world to worship the 1st beast.

Now we could do some historical "run through" as to what these beasts most likely are. They both existed in the 1st century and the first beast "re-manifests" at the end of time.

The first beast exists now. If you know what you're looking at and looking for; you'll recognize it. The 1st beast is both a religious and political entity that has taken on a great deal of power. (It's not the Roman Catholic Church.) The 2nd beast is also a religious entity that supports the first and tells the world to worship the first. The 2nd beast also wields a lot of political power. They are both connected to the Bible. Neither though is any one particular "denomination"; but they both are apostate religious systems.

Shall we play "name that beast"? LOL