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Will we sin in our glorified state? If not, is it because we lose our free will when we go to Heaven?Of course He could make people who don't sin. He would just have to make them without free will so they couldn't make their own choices. That way none of them could choose to sin. Of course none of them could choose to love God or each other either.
I always thought it was because our sinful nature would finally be overcome and there would be no temptation. But let me clarify my previous statement. God could make people who didn't sin without interfering in their free will but they would have to remain in a place free of lies and temptation. Adam and Eve would likely never have sinned had they not been lied to by Satan.Reformationist said:Will we sin in our glorified state? If not, is it because we lose our free will when we go to Heaven?
Orthodoxyusa said:[/url]
Forgive me...
The only place, at least for us, that fits that description is in the heart of a glorified saint who lives in Heaven with God. Sin comes forth from the heart. It matters not whether there is external temptation. In fact, the desire to remove oneself from all external temptation is one of the primary reasons for monestaries. Monks sought to remove themselves from the outside world and force their flesh into submission through struggle. Were they less sinful than others? Of course not. There was rampant homosexuality as well as all sorts of depraved behavior. You see, a person can be a blind, deaf, mute quadriplegic and still sin in his/her mind. Temptation is just as prevalent, if not more so, in our own hearts.forgivensinner001 said:I always thought it was because our sinful nature would finally be overcome and there would be no temptation. But let me clarify my previous statement. God could make people who didn't sin without interfering in their free will but they would have to remain in a place free of lies and temptation.
Well, I cannot say whether this is true or not, nor do I think it proper to speculate on such a thing but I will tell you, simply, that satan had no power over Adam and Eve to make them sin. They sinned willingly and willingly exchanged the truth of God for a lie. Satan's lie is not the cause of their disobedience. The reason they disobeyed was because they wanted to disobey. The only way Adam and Eve would never have sinned is if God had had no laws and, thus, they would have no law to break.Adam and Eve would likely never have sinned had they not been lied to by Satan.
No offense taken and I wish you God's blessing as well.So please don't be offended if I just shrug and walk away.Peace, love and mercy to you in the blessed name of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.
Whilst i have many problems with the logic presented by some Christians, i think your position here is the most plausible. Its what i would expect to be the case IF God is real. There are many arguments over God's omnipotence, omniscience, and benevolence. However, i could believe that the world is the way it is, even with Gods fore knowledge, because that is the only way that Gods plan can progress to its intended outcome. Maybe omnipotence isnt 'the ability to do absolutely anything'. Maybe its 'the ability to do anything that it is possible to do'. There is a difference.Reformationist said:Of course He has that power. It wasn't His plan though. You start with the false premise that our falling from grace was outside of the plan of God. God had always intended that we fall. He is glorified in our redemption. If we never fell we'd only know Him as the Lord. Now that we have fallen we can know Him as Lord and Savior. The truth is that we have a greater understanding of God because of our failures.
Once again, let me commend you on your wise and responsible approach to the issues of the Gospel. I am rather amazed and impressed that you understand these truths, even though you may not fully acknowledge them as the truth.anunbeliever said:Whilst i have many problems with the logic presented by some Christians, i think your position here is the most plausible. Its what i would expect to be the case IF God is real. There are many arguments over God's omnipotence, omniscience, and benevolence. However, i could believe that the world is the way it is, even with Gods fore knowledge, because that is the only way that Gods plan can progress to its intended outcome. Maybe omnipotence isnt 'the ability to do absolutely anything'. Maybe its 'the ability to do anything that it is possible to do'. There is a difference.
There could be reasons for suffering and pain in this world that we cant comprehend. Whilst God may not have wanted sin/evil, and still doesnt. It may be a tool he uses to craft souls for eternity. There may even me factors which allow this to be true and still allow God to be good/loving to all (ie why would God make people he knows wont be saved?). I cant imagine what these factors/reasons are, but i can conceive that they may exist.
InnerPhyre said:Once we are saved, we are always saved. The question is "when are we saved?" If you are drowning, are you saved when someone throws you a life preserver, or are you saved once you are on the boat? Once someone throws you a rope, you can grab onto it and be pulled in. But even once you've grabbed it, you can still let go and drown. This is why Jesus said "He who endures to the end will be saved." Once we are in Heaven, we are saved, and we will never need to worry after that. Until then, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
thats not quite true.. we receive our initial justificaiton at baptism, and are in every sense of the word "Saved" as we are born again, into the righteousness of Jesus. However we can lose our salvation, and do lose it with every grave sin we commit after baptism. We can regain it after that by going to confession and be absolved of our sin, and restored to our baptismal state.Orthodoxyusa said:
Forgive me....
I think if read "InnerPhyre" comment closely, you are in agreement... I had just never heard it that way and liked the drowning man scene...geocajun said:thats not quite true.. we receive our initial justificaiton at baptism, and are in every sense of the word "Saved" as we are born again, into the righteousness of Jesus. However we can lose our salvation, and do lose it with every grave sin we commit after baptism. We can regain it after that by going to confession and be absolved of our sin, and restored to our baptismal state.
So we see here that salvation is a process, but it is also an event which occurs by the graces received at our Baptism.
If you want to know more about the Catholic teaching on salvation, the OBOB forum is the place to go for that - I am simply trying to let you know that catholics do not hold to the OSAS doctrine.
well the first sentence "Once we are saved, we are always saved. The question is "when are we saved?""Orthodoxyusa said:I think if read "InnerPhyre" comment closely, you are in agreement... I had just never heard it that way and liked the drowning man scene...
Forgive me...
Yeah, but he is saying that we aren't saved until its all over and we are with God....geocajun said:well the first sentence "Once we are saved, we are always saved. The question is "when are we saved?""
is the one I was addressing - We receive our initial justification at baptism, but can lose it, and it is restored by confession.
Thus, Once saved is not always saved.
Its more than simply an attention getter - its just wrong. We are saved at baptism, at that time and place (Baptism now saves you). If you died immediately after being baptized, your judgement would be clear because at Baptism you died to your old self, and were born again into the body of Christ, clothed in the righteousness of Christ.Orthodoxyusa said:Yeah, but he is saying that we aren't saved until its all over and we are with God....
Salvation does not happen at a specific time and place... we are being saved... and we must work towards salvation our whole life... falling down, getting up and continuing on... over and over again...
His 1st sentance is a attention getter though, especially from a catholic point of view... it speaks to the Protestants... if they happen to be listening....
O.K. - I'll go along with saying "it's wrong" if the statement were made alone, however he explained his statement with his next sentance.. I thought it was good...geocajun said:Its more than simply an attention getter - its just wrong. We are saved at baptism, at that time and place (Baptism now saves you). If you died immediately after being baptized, your judgement would be clear because at Baptism you died to your old self, and were born again into the body of Christ, clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
Biblically, we should speak of salvation on these terms:
I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:58), but Im also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:910, 1 Cor. 3:1215). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:1113)."
(the above is a quote from Catholic Answers : http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp)
fwiw, we do not as Catholics, speak of being assured of salvation either as a general statement, however after a child is baptized for example, it would be OK to speak of them as absolutely being in the friendship of God.Orthodoxyusa said:O.K. - I'll go along with saying "it's wrong" if the statement were made alone, however he explained his statement with his next sentance.. I thought it was good...
I am in agreement with what you have said, however as Orthodox we do not say that we are ever sure of our salvation "we hope" that we have worked out our salvation...:crosself:
Forgive me....
As respect to Creation it is the only logical explanation for the perfection of our universe.To say we simply evolved to me is the same as driving past a beautiful home and when you ask who built it being told that no one built it that over the years planes loaded with building supplies flew over and dropped items and they all fell perfectly in place.bmoynihan said:I believe that it was an illusion created by my mind, having said that I cannot see how that is 'blasphemy of the holy spirit' if it was to exsist.
I do not believe in Creation so I do not need to give anybody credit for it.
I really doubt it ever would, for me there are far too many holes in it.
1) Why does suffering occur if there is a god? (This is not the same as free will, you can have free will and still be protected from suffering)?
2) Why did god make us 'sinners' in the first place? If he is all knowing then when he created us he would have known about having to send jesus, why bother with such a pantomime?
3) Christians often defy the basic teachings and thus I have difficulty relating to them. The main point that annoys me is how judgemental Christians are on issues like Homosexuality. Why must Christians have a negative oppinion of such things if God alown is the judge? Even saying that only Christians get to heaven is judging!
4) The Bible was written by men hundreds of years after the event yet you base your religion on it. If there was a God why couldn't you just ask him for answers instead of looking towards a book written by men?
5) If there is a God what happened before him? Who made him? In all eternity why did he suddenly decide to make us? All sounds far too a primative concept for me.
Having said that I respect Christians for the good work that they do and for generally trying to be good and kind to others, hopefully this path may get them closer to enlightenment than by being a non believer in anything and by following a selfish path.
With Metta
Do what?yeshuaskid said:If you were always saved then everyone would do it just to do it.
No because, while you do know Christ and you turned away, the Lord will turn away from you. It is better to be a hot christian or a cold unbeliever for God will spit out the luke-warm christian.bmoynihan said:I once heard (When I was a christian) that once you are saved that you will always be saved. So where would that leave me IF God/Jesus etc is true?
I was a born-again Christian for quite a few years, I prayed every night, attended church, did the lot!
So if I died now when I am a non believer would I get to heaven IF it existed?
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