Once Saved, Always Saved?

דוד חֵן (David) said:

Hello Ken,

They just don't want to be judged. The messiah died for all man. For it is written, "it is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world’s." In doing so, the curse of returning to dust is lifted. We will all be resurrected for judgement.

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Agreed, we will be but that is a promise that awaits us. Sin and death have been defeated but his perfecting work has not been applied yet. If it had been, my back wouldn't feel like it does, and my knees would handle my desire for an afternoon jog a little better.

Blessings.

דוד חֵן (David) said:

Never did I say that I agree with "sinless perfection," you did. The flesh is sinful regardless of salvation. Galatians 5:19-21 speaks of various kinds of sin and the fact that we will not enter the kingdom of God if we practice these things. God will judge us on the things we do. Do not think that God is not concerned about the sinful things we do. God hates sin and the ones who choose to practice it. (see: Psalms 5:5-6) What kind of things are we practicing? This is the question. Do we claim to be saved then go on living in darkness? If so than we are lying to ourselves.

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The quoted was very well stated. Sin stands in contrast to the character, reputation, and authority of God... sin stands against the name of God. Yeshua was very clear to those he forgave, "Go and sin no more." We are saved by grace through faith, but the saved (if you will) obey just as our model (Yeshua) obeyed the will of the Father. He (Yeshua) did not die so we could sin, he died to overcome sin and achieve the ability to perfect us. So if a gospel is being taught that says you can come to the Lord, make a profession of faith, and then continue to live in sin because, well, he understands our weaknesses... then this is a false gospel! He said, "go and sin no more!" He also said, "He who endures until the end SHALL BE saved."

Blessings.

bbbbbbb said:

Does it really say that or is that sometime you would like to insert into the verse? Remember what happens to those who would add to the Word of God.

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I did not "add to the Word of God". For it is clearly written:

My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:19‭-‬20 NIV

“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.
Matthew 18:12‭-‬13 NIV
http://bible.com/111/mat.18.12-13.NIV

Vi said:

Once saved, the HS provides for you so you will always be saved, and nothing can take that away....

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And yet:

And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Revelation 22:19 NIV

Explain

I can come at this two ways from my own personal experience. I first became saved at three years old, I remember feeling love for Jesus and at the prompting of my Christian mother asking him to come into my heart. A bunch of things then happened whereby I grew up, suffered abused, trauma, got involved in the satanic and occult and severely lost my way. I stopped believing in Jesus completely. As a result his presence and Spirit left my life and I resulted in being unsaved. In order to be set free I actually had to say the sinners prayer again and invite Jesus back into my heart, because he had left a long time ago.

So, I lost my salvation, and had to regain it. Now, the other way you could look at this is that Jesus never forsake me. It didn't matter what I got myself involved in, he drew me back to his Heart, and he always had his hand on me. I've heard that happening a lot with others who have similar stories to myself. So it makes me question whether we can really lose our salvation. Theoretically, yes, but God tends to cause us to be reconverted again. So in the end we were never truly lost..

MayMcFlurry said:

I can come at this two ways from my own personal experience. I first became saved at three years old, I remember feeling love for Jesus and at the prompting of my Christian mother asking him to come into my heart. A bunch of things then happened whereby I grew up, suffered abused, trauma, got involved in the satanic and occult and severely lost my way. I stopped believing in Jesus completely. As a result his presence and Spirit left my life and I resulted in being unsaved. In order to be set free I actually had to say the sinners prayer again and invite Jesus back into my heart, because he had left a long time ago.

So, I lost my salvation, and had to regain it.

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No offense, but there's no reason for us to reach any conclusion about OSAS on the basis of what you (or anyone else, for that matter) imagined was going on with your own emotions and thought processes.

I was just adding my very real experience. That's all.

דוד חֵן (David) said:

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

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Eisegesis

The difference between our faith and every other belief system is the difference between "advice" and "news". Yeshua didn't just come to give advice. He came to bear our debt, to pay for the penalty of our sins (the wages of sin is death), so that we could be free to forgive one another as he forgave us. Its not advice that is the message of the bible, but it is news, good news. The news that God has intervened on our behalf, and has provided forgiveness for our sins.
We are beings that need unconditional all accepting love. Our problem is that none of us know how to give this kind of love because all of our love is conditional in some way and is self serving. But God who is the embodiment of love, and who does not need love, became a willing sacrifice and gave his life as a ransom for sin. Why? Because we needed love. And so that we could receive the kind of love we as beings so desperately needed - unconditional, accepting love and so that we could become the kind of people He created us to be.
It's not what we can do for God but what He has done for us. He entered "our world," He took on
"our humanity," He bore "our sins," He died "our death, "He was resurrected for "our life," He's coming again for "our glorification."
Paul in his letter to the Romans is urging us on the basis of all that he taught on, on the basis of all that has been done, he urges us to become living sacrifices:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1, 2 KJV)
"therefore" meaning all Paul taught concerning grace and mercy, we have become thru Christ the objects of God's omnipotent, eternal love.
If we have not understood all that the mercies of God has done, if we have not understood doctrinally and theologically deep enough, all that Messiah has accomplished for us, then we have become useless to him. God is calling us to live our lives as living sacrifices unto him. Our problem is, we are so prideful that we are not willing to give up anything for others. When a sacrifice was laid upon the altar there was a great deal of suffering involved, the animal experienced pain and suffering. What are we willing to give up? What are we willing to place upon the altar? So that we can become a blessing to others, and become servants of the Most High God?
The difference between our faith and every other belief system is the difference between "advice" and "news". Yeshua didn't just come to give advice. He came to bear our debt, to pay for the penalty of our sins (the wages of sin is death), so that we could be free to forgive one another as he forgave us. Its not advice that is the message of the bible, but it is news, good news. The news that God has intervened on our behalf, and has provided forgiveness for our sins.
We are beings that need unconditional all accepting love. Our problem is that none of us know how to give this kind of love because all of our love is conditional in some way and is self serving. But God who is the embodiment of love, and who does not need love, became a willing sacrifice and gave his life as a ransom for sin. Why? Because we needed love. And so that we could receive the kind of love we as beings so desperately needed - unconditional, accepting love and so that we could become the kind of people He created us to be.
It's not what we can do for God but what He has done for us. He entered "our world," He took on
"our humanity," He bore "our sins," He died "our death, "He was resurrected for "our life," He's coming again for "our glorification."
Paul in his letter to the Romans is urging us on the basis of all that he taught on, on the basis of all that has been done, he urges us to become living sacrifices:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1, 2 KJV)
"therefore" meaning all Paul taught concerning grace and mercy, we have become thru Christ the objects of God's omnipotent, eternal love.
If we have not understood all that the mercies of God has done, if we have not understood doctrinally and theologically deep enough, all that Messiah has accomplished for us, then we have become useless to him. God is calling us to live our lives as living sacrifices unto him. Our problem is, we are so prideful that we are not willing to give up anything for others. When a sacrifice was laid upon the altar there was a great deal of suffering involved, the animal experienced pain and suffering. What are we willing to give up? What are we willing to place upon the altar? So that we can become a blessing to others, and become servants of the Most High God?

MayMcFlurry said:

I was just adding my very real experience. That's all.

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He is right though, we need to be careful to not be swayed by emotion. I am not saying you are... but emotion can come off as "God's voice" to us at times when it isn't the case. I once watched two different Christian men in the same week tell the same one woman, "God told me we would be married." Clearly not only did God not tell them both, I highly doubt He told either!

Honoluluwindow said:

Eisegesis

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YHWH BLESS you !

Our salvation is entirely God's doing. He draws us to Himself (Jn. 6:44); He convicts us of sin (Jn. 16:8); He moves us to repentance (2Ti. 2:25); He illuminates our minds with His truth (Jn. 16:13); He gives us faith to believe (Ro. 12:3); He gives us our second, spiritual birth and regenerates us (Jn. 3:5, 6; 2Cor. 5:17; Ro. 8:9-16) Our salvation is a monergistic work of God: He does it all. He took the initiative toward us while we alienated from Him and enemies in our minds toward by our wicked works (Col. 1:21) and He continues to take the same initiative toward us once He's adopted us into His family.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

It isn't that God "gets us off the ground" and then expects us to keep ourselves aloft. Not at all. He gets us into the air and then He sees to it that we remain there. From beginning to end our relationship with God is His doing, not ours; and so He gets all the glory for the marvelous things He does in and through us. All we do, fundamentally, is receive and transmit. We are vessels (2Ti. 2:21) into whom and through whom God communicates Himself, branches that simply abide and receive the life-giving, fruit-bearing sap of the Vine (Jn. 15:5). When this is the way we are living, good works are a natural consequence. When we are surrendered and open to the transforming power of God's Spirit, there is no need for legalistic brow-beating, for threats of lost salvation, for fear to motivate us to good works. As the apostle James explains, when we are truly born-again and walking in the Spirit, righteous living is the inevitable and natural result: our faith is unavoidably manifested in corresponding works.

When believers resort to frightening each other into doing what is right, they mistake entirely on what basis God accepts their obedience. The first and great commandment is to love God with all of one's being (Matt. 22:37, 38). This is where obedience to God, where our good works, are to start. God makes it clear in His word that obedience emanating from any other motive is unacceptable to Him:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

The threat of lost salvation and the fear it engenders is anathema to a biblical relationship with God. One cannot properly love what He fears (1Jn. 4:16-19). Now, I'm not talking about the reverential awe, the "fear" of God which the Bible commends to us, but the fear of a prisoner toward His captor, or the fear of a slave toward a hard and dangerous master. This is the sort of fear the saved-and-lost crowd often use to motivate each other to right living. But as I've shown, God rejects such a motive - and the "good works" that come out of it - entirely.

The issue, really, is about who gets the glory. If God saves us and preserves us in our relationship with Him, He gets all the glory. If we insinuate ourselves into the equation and make ourselves partially responsible for our good works, to the degree we do, we can take pride in our good works and thus diminish the glory God is due. Scripture highlights this issue:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 3:24-28
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

Carnal, fleshly Self is at the root of the legalistic, "do right or die" doctrine of the saved-and-lost crowd. Fear of death is how one motivates Self to act contrary to its natural course. Self is incorrigibly selfish (Ro. 8:7, 8; Ga. 5:19-20); it produces only more of itself. To get it to act self-sacrificially, which is the essential core of godly love, to act in contradiction to its natural selfish impulse, one must supply a selfish motive: Self-preservation. Ironically, even when Self appears to act self-sacrificially, it is actually motivated by selfishness. And this is why God rejects it. Legalistic, fear-motivated "obedience" is not an expression of love for God but of love of Self.

Scripture is very clear that the relationship God forges with us - and for us - He takes the responsibility to preserve:

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

2 Timothy 1:12
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

A genuine child of God, one who has been "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph. 1:6) who is Christ, is eternally kept by God, not because of their good works, but because of the perfect atonement of Christ on their behalf. Our acceptance with God is eternally secure because it is based on the finished and perfect work of Jesus, not our stumbling and imperfect walk with God. So it is that Paul wrote,

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Good advice for us all, don't you think?

Selah.

Ken Rank said:

He is right though, we need to be careful to not be swayed by emotion. I am not saying you are... but emotion can come off as "God's voice" to us at times when it isn't the case. I once watched two different Christian men in the same week tell the same one woman, "God told me we would be married." Clearly not only did God not tell them both, I highly doubt He told either!

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I'm not saying I heard from God, I just wanted to add my two cents. I was saved, lost then SAVED AGAIN. Because I had to say the sinners prayer again. I wouldn't have to if I was already saved!

It is nothing to do with emotions. I'm sorry, you tried to be nice with me. I am just peed off by all the self-righteous people on here. I may be a new Christian and struggle to quote scripture and stay faithful to Jesus and whatever because of the demonic torment I get. But that doesn't give others any right to talk down to me like I know nothing.

MayMcFlurry said:

I was just adding my very real experience. That's all.

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Certainly. But as a response to the question "Once Saved, Always Saved?" it looked as though you felt that your experience answered it.

Albion said:

Certainly. But as a response to the question "Once Saved, Always Saved?" it looked as though you felt that your experience answered it.

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No. I was just adding my experience (that's all it is).

דוד חֵן (David) said:

Woe, Woe, Woe!
If I said anything wrong, you must prove it. But I am speaking the truth, why are you against me?

As a reply to an accusation against me,
Why is it that so many professing Christians choose to live in sin? Because, they love sin and do not want to stop doing it. They tell themselves that they are saved to hide from the fact that they are unrepentant sinners that rebel against God by their actions. If you love to do evil and sick things you will simply go to hell. It does not matter if you were saved at some point in our history. If you refuse to stop doing evil, you will pay the price.

Never did I say that I agree with "sinless perfection," you did. The flesh is sinful regardless of salvation. Galatians 5:19-21 speaks of various kinds of sin and the fact that we will not enter the kingdom of God if we practice these things. God will judge us on the things we do. Do not think that God is not concerned about the sinful things we do. God hates sin and the ones who choose to practice it. (see: Psalms 5:5-6) What kind of things are we practicing? This is the question. Do we claim to be saved then go on living in darkness? If so than we are lying to ourselves.

When Christians choose to live in sin, they reject Yeshua who offers salvation. They refuse the salvation that the Messiah offers because their choices stem from a lack of trust and dedication.

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Well, I don't HAVE to do anything. I don't see where you draw a line of distinction between a Christian "living" in sin and a Christian who still has some sin in his life? I don't believe you have one. I don't think a Christian can live in sin and accept Yeshua ha masheuch or whatever you call him, I mean Jesus of course. Once a gift is accepted it can of course in no means be given back or taken away. There is scripture for that, but I'm sure you probably either cut it out or ran over it deeply with a black pen or maybe a blue pen (IDK). This of course would cause certain changes in a persons life etc etc... As we get older though we come to new challenges and new situations and to think that we are going to be perfect and Christ like in everyone is silly. Kind of the stuff I'd expect my sweet 5 yr old to say, but of course I don't tell him it's absolute hogwash. So, do I subscribe to the OSAS belief? I guess so, but who knows what's right and what isn't. Unfortunately the Bible is one of the most unclear books ever written in history. It fails to provide a clear concise doctrine for salvation and many other things. Just poorly written or translated? Who knows. Maybe we all go to hell in the end, because God isn't the sweet benevelont creator we'd all like him to be? Only time will tell I guess. Shalom selah as salakem bismallah allah ackbar. Whoops, that last one isn't Christian. Sounded nice though.


P.S Of course sin is great. It's wonderful and it can be quite exhilarating. That's why it's a temptation to all of us (but not you though).

Vicomte13 said:

It's not John's writing. It is John TAKING DICTATION FROM CHRIST IN HEAVEN - the only time that ever happened.

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For which we have only John's word that his revelation is as you've described. What makes his claim of divine dictation any more plausible than Paul's claim of divine inspiration? It seems the only reason why you want to give John's words more weight than Paul's is that you can more easily twist his words to support your particular soteriological perspective. This is a very poor way of handling of God's word that will lead you inevitably to falsehood.

Selah.