Once Saved, Always Saved?

trinichristiannudist said:

As for the "GOOD WORKS", that is the whole point of holding onto our salvation. It only confirms what JESUS said in JOHN 15 about bearing fruit. Once we surrender daily to the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans12), and conform to HIS will, Holy Sirit comes in and does the rest(John 14). So in the end we have our salvation once we "CHOOSE" to hold onto it.

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So, exactly what does it take to "choose not to hold onto it"?

דוד חֵן (David) said:

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

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Great post.

Add to it Matt 18:32-35

bbbbbbb said:

So, exactly what does it take to "choose not to hold onto it"?

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One would say it is similar to a divorce. Usually a divorce, the "formal" parting of ways, is merely a formality by the time it happens. By the time papers are served and an official separation is declared, the two in the relationship have already grown so far apart that there is no relationship anymore.

sculleywr said:

One would say it is similar to a divorce. Usually a divorce, the "formal" parting of ways, is merely a formality by the time it happens. By the time papers are served and an official separation is declared, the two in the relationship have already grown so far apart that there is no relationship anymore.

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What happens if one party chooses to hold onto the other and will never let him go? (John 10:27-29)

דוד חֵן (David) said:

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses: . . .

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I have studied this out and was going to write a book against it, but then I realized that I could absolutely prove it false with just one passage. So I decided to not write the book. Can an apple send produce anything but an apple tree? The answer is no. ANY TREE that grows from an apple send WILL BE and apple tree.

Jesus gave us a parable of the SEED of the WORD OF GOD. Those who teach eternal security expect us to believe that the SEED of the WORD OF GOD produces people that are FAKE Christians. They ONLY BELIEVE they are saved, but they are not really saved.

THIS OF COURSE is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

I refer to the parable of the sower of seed in which the seed grew up but withered away by persecution.

The correct meaning is that when we are born again, we are NOT born again FULL GROWN. We are spiritual babies that must grow strong. The plant that withered did not have a root, which means it had not been properly discipled.

We can also be choked off by worldly influence, the thorns in the parable. Even though we are born into the family of God, we only live by spiritual nutrients that come from Bible reading, prayer, worship, obeying God, preaching, etc.

If we cut off the flow of spiritual nutrients, we can die spiritually.

Take 100 different juries of people who have NOT been indoctrinated on this topic, and present to them this parable and they will ALL agree that the SEED of the WORD OF GOD must ONLY produce genuine born again Christians. NOT FAKE CHRISTIANS.

bbbbbbb said:

What happens if one party chooses to hold onto the other and will never let him go? (John 10:27-29)

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The same thing as happens when one's spouse walks away:
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. -I Corinthians 7:15

Christ will allow us to walk away and allow it to be so.

sculleywr said:

The same thing as happens when one's spouse walks away:
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. -I Corinthians 7:15

Christ will allow us to walk away and allow it to be so.

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So, what I understand you to believe is that the words of Jesus Christ are in error in John 10:27-29 and He (God) cannot hold His sheep, but the sheep can wander away at will.

bbbbbbb said:

So, what I understand you to believe is that the words of Jesus Christ are in error in John 10:27-29 and He (God) cannot hold His sheep, but the sheep can wander away at will.

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Y'SHUA always told what HIS FATHER gave HIM TO SPEAK.

Besides the wonderful safety of a sheep who stays trusting and relying on the shepherd, who hears the voice of the shepherd and always follows the shepherd;
Y'SHUA told with many warnings the need "to endure to the end"
and in many other WORDS in SCRIPTURE not to fall back into sin and not to trample underfoot the BLOOD of the MESSIAH and make it of no effect (no more sacrifice for sin).

So always, YHWH shows the VALUE of FREE WILL that YHWH has given men everywhere.
Even when or if it may mean they walk away from HIM to destruction.

It is all HIS WORD - not one part without the other.

Take comfort in HIS GRACE, that even when crucified or otherwise tortured and martyred, HE gives the grace needed to overflow with PEACE, JOY and RIGHTEOUSNESS even then - in the most cruel of times,
IF YOU are WILLING. Trusting HIM, and Relying on HIM, requires a WILLINGNESS to ,
or it is of no value and not pleasing to the CREATOR. (without true living faith, it is impossible to please YHWH).

Y'SHUA likewise said "PRAY for strength to endure to the end, and WISDOM to know how to"..... otherwise, one may not endure to the end.

bbbbbbb said:

So, what I understand you to believe is that the words of Jesus Christ are in error in John 10:27-29 and He (God) cannot hold His sheep, but the sheep can wander away at will.

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It says nothing can PLUCK, not that they are not free to leave.

Think of this, many people make their decision to follow Christ at a young age. The pastor of the church I grew up in was 7. Some as young as 5. This is an age when subterfuge isn't something the human brain is even capable of, so saying that their decision to follow Christ at such a young age isn't sincere is problematic at best, because it assumes that the child was lying about something they didn't understand enough to lie about. What they most likely understood is hell is bad, heaven is good, and this is how to escape hell.

But if God takes away our free will at that point, there is a problem with either of the two plausible ways He would do so:

1. If God simply takes our ability to leave Him away, but not the ability to wish to leave Him, then those who inevitably desire to leave Him will be forced against their will to stay with Him, which would be a punishment in and of itself. If a person does not wish to have a relationship with Christ, then there will be no relationship with Christ. Relationships are, by definition, two-way roads. There isn't a way to have a healthy one-way relationship that benefits both parties.

2. If God takes our ability to desire to leave Him, then we are no more than mere automatons, computer programmed to do whatever He wants us to do. And if this is what He does, then we are again at the problem of asking why He doesn't simply reprogram everyone, because then that would put an end to evil in the world. It also begs the question of why that reprogramming was so incomplete that we still commit sin. Does God do a half-job on us? Is God incapable of completely reprogramming all of our will so that He has to do a half job? That calls into question His omnipotence.

There are so many ethical questions that impugn the goodness of God in the case of God tinkering with our free will. Orthodox just tend to leave all of these issues alone and say that God will never, at any point in our lives, make us unable to desire something, and He will not force us to remain with Him against our will.

okmike said:

I have studied this out and was going to write a book against it, but then I realized that I could absolutely prove it false with just one passage. So I decided to not write the book. Can an apple send produce anything but an apple tree? The answer is no. ANY TREE that grows from an apple send WILL BE and apple tree.

Jesus gave us a parable of the SEED of the WORD OF GOD. Those who teach eternal security expect us to believe that the SEED of the WORD OF GOD produces people that are FAKE Christians. They ONLY BELIEVE they are saved, but they are not really saved.

THIS OF COURSE is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

I refer to the parable of the sower of seed in which the seed grew up but withered away by persecution.

The correct meaning is that when we are born again, we are NOT born again FULL GROWN. We are spiritual babies that must grow strong. The plant that withered did not have a root, which means it had not been properly discipled.

We can also be choked off by worldly influence, the thorns in the parable. Even though we are born into the family of God, we only live by spiritual nutrients that come from Bible reading, prayer, worship, obeying God, preaching, etc.

If we cut off the flow of spiritual nutrients, we can die spiritually.

Take 100 different juries of people who have NOT been indoctrinated on this topic, and present to them this parable and they will ALL agree that the SEED of the WORD OF GOD must ONLY produce genuine born again Christians. NOT FAKE CHRISTIANS.

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Discipline? I thought the Holy Spirit automatically cleanses believers from their sins, preserves the elect?

Narrator
People think the Christian life is the following:

Jesus
Believe in me and you won't perish but will live forever.

Joe
Thanks. I accept.

Jesus
Good. Now you are good to go, safe.

Joe
Goody. Can I ask a few questions?

Jesus
Sure.

Joe
Why is it that so few accept your offer?

Jesus
Because they can't? Only those who were selected before time began can. Everyone is spiritually dead, but the Holy Spirit touches the elect, makes them alive and when I pop the question, through my disciples, they accept.

That's not all. My work is a complete package, there's no need to add any thing more. First, My righteousness is lent to them. So when God the Father looks at them He doesn't see their sins, instead He sees my obedience. Next, the Holy Spirit will automatically remove some of the sinful impulses you have, but not all. That has to wait till you are in Heaven.

Joe
Awesome! Can anyone get lost again?

Jesus
Nope. No one can take you away by force. And you can't lose your way too. The process is bullet proof. As for leaving, why would any one want to leave. I'm not setting conditions, saying they have to give up all their bad habits. It's my job to TAKE AWAY those habits, painlessly. In fact, if they try to earn their salvation like those false prophets who tried to steal my glory by driving out demons and healing the sick in my name, they're just revealing that they were not the elect. Let me repeat: anyone who try to show fruit are not the elect. Also those who do not show fruit are not the elect.

Bottom line, don't try. Let it happen.

If it doesn't, tough luck, hard cheese.

Joe
Awesome!!! Gulp!

Narrator
The above scene has an obvious fault. Calvinists, especially hyper Calvinists, can't explain why people, even if they are spiritually dead, don't all accept the offer, since there are no conditions before or after conversion to give up bad habits.

When the powerbase of the majority of the Church moved West, Greek dualism contaminated development of doctrine.

bbbbbbb said:

So, exactly what does it take to "choose not to hold onto it"?

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This is a wrong explanation of the situation in the sense that it describes it in the sense of the convert not holding to the blessings of salvation. What he is not holding to is the lessons from God, that He is the only hope, what Paul calls water from the Rock.

Justification is the recognition from God that you have turned to Him for help, rather than to indulge in satisfying your creaturely drives and believing life has no other fulfillment. Sanctification is God telling you that you need to abandon that view, serving yourself to order to be fulfilled, through serving God and your fellow human beings.

Therefore, the actual situation is this:

God places people in different situations , but He causes things to happen to every one of them, so that they will search for Him, for answers :

Acts 17NetBible
26From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 27so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.


Joe
Life's a dog. No matter how you slice it or dice it, you always come out a loser. It only makes sense if God exists and gives fulfillment to life.


◄ Ecclesiastes 2 ►
NET BibleFutility of Self-Indulgent Pleasure1 I thought to myself,“Come now, I will try self-indulgent pleasure to see if it is worthwhile.”But I found that it also is futile.2I said of partying, “It is folly,”and of self-indulgent pleasure, “It accomplishes nothing!”3I thought deeply about the effects of indulging myself with wine(all the while my mind was guiding me with wisdom)and the effects of behaving foolishly,so that I might discover what is profitablefor people to do on earth during the few days of their lives.

Futility of Materialism
4I increased my possessions:I built houses for myself;I planted vineyards for myself.5I designed royal gardens and parks for myself,and I planted all kinds of fruit trees in them.6I constructed pools of water for myself,to irrigate my grove of flourishing trees.7I purchased male and female slaves,and I owned slaves who were born in my house;I also possessed more livestock – both herds and flocks –than any of my predecessors in Jerusalem.8I also amassed silver and gold for myself,as well as valuable treasures taken from kingdoms and provinces.I acquired male singers and female singers for myself,and what gives a man sensual delight – a harem of beautiful concubines!9So I was far wealthier than all my predecessors in Jerusalem,yet I maintained my objectivity:10I did not restrain myself from getting whatever I wanted;I did not deny myself anything that would bring me pleasure.So all my accomplishments gave me joy;this was my reward for all my effort.11Yet when I reflected on everything I had accomplishedand on all the effort that I had expended to accomplish it,I concluded: “All these achievements and possessions are ultimately profitless –like chasing the wind!There is nothing gained from them on earth.”

Wisdom is Better than Folly
12Next, I decided to consider wisdom, as well as foolish behavior and ideas.For what more can the king’s successor do than what the king has already done?13I realized that wisdom is preferable to folly,just as light is preferable to darkness:14The wise man can see where he is going, but the fool walks in darkness.Yet I also realized that the same fate happens to them both.15So I thought to myself, “The fate of the fool will happen even to me!Then what did I gain by becoming so excessively wise?”So I lamented to myself,“The benefits of wisdom are ultimately meaningless!”16For the wise man, like the fool, will not be remembered for very long,because in the days to come, both will already have been forgotten.Alas, the wise man dies – just like the fool!17So I loathed life because whathappens on earth seems awful to me;for all the benefits of wisdom are futile – like chasing the wind.

Futility of Being a Workaholic
18So I loathed all the fruit of my effort,for which I worked so hard on earth,because I must leave it behind in the hands of my successor.19Who knows if he will be a wise man or a fool?Yet he will be master over all the fruit of my laborfor which I worked so wisely on earth!This also is futile!20So I began to despair about all the fruit of my laborfor which I worked so hard on earth.21For a man may do his work with wisdom, knowledge, and skill;however, he must hand over the fruit of his labor as an inheritanceto someone else who did not work for it.This also is futile, and an awful injustice!

Painful Days and Restless Nights
22What does a man acquire from all his laborand from the anxiety that accompanies his toil on earth?23For all day long his work produces pain and frustration,and even at night his mind cannot relax!This also is futile!

Enjoy Work and its Benefits
24There is nothing better for people than to eat and drink,and to find enjoyment in their work.I also perceived that this ability to find enjoyment comes from God.25For no one can eat and drinkor experience joy apart from him.26For to the one who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge, and joy,but to the sinner, he gives the task of amassing wealth –only to give it to the one who pleases God.This task of the wicked is futile – like chasing the wind!


Christ
7The Lord said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt. I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. 8I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a land that is both good and spacious, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the region of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. 9And now indeed the cry of the Israelites has come to me, and I have also seen how severely the Egyptians oppress them. Exodus 4


14The LORD replied, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest." Exodus 33

28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Matt 11

9When he saw the crowds, he felt sorry for them. They were troubled and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. Matt 9

37Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. John 6

Joe
34I have seen and I testify that this is God's Chosen One. John 1

49Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.” John 1

Christ
30Aaron spoke all the words that the Lord had spoken to Moses and did the signs in the sight of the people, 31and the people believed. When they heard that the Lord had attended to the Israelites and that he had seen their affliction, they bowed down close to the ground. Exodus 4

22“These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.23“And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders. 24“You said, ‘Behold, the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with man, yet he lives. 25‘Now then why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any longer, then we will die. 26‘For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27‘Go near and hear all that the LORD our God says; then speak to us all that the LORDour God speaks to you, and we will hear and do it.’ Deut 5

1For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,3and all ate the same spiritual food,4and all drank the same spiritual drink. 1 Corinthians 10

16John replied to all of them, "I'm baptizing you with water, but one is coming who is more powerful than I, and I'm not worthy to untie his sandal straps. It is he who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Luke 3

3He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD. Deut 8

6This brings you great joy, although you may have to suffer for a short time in various trials.7Such trials show the proven character of your faith, which is much more valuable than gold – gold that is tested by fire, even though it is passing away – and will bring praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 1 Peter 1


Judas
3The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the pots of meat, when we ate bread to the full, for you have brought us out into this desert to kill this whole assembly with hunger!” Exodus 16

Joe
?

From the above explanation of a believer's situation, will you agree that the drink from the Rock was the lesson that unless the seed is buried in Christ, it cannot live?

In other words, what has to be resisted is the temptation to leave hold of the lessons from God, to go back to Egypt, to the life of dependence on slavery to the world, to despair that eating manna from Heaven, Christ's flesh and blood, is the way to be fulfilled.

What's with all these generic claims of people just "walking away" as if it's no big deal? Like someone just goes out for a stroll one day and turns around and says "Oops, where's the Lord? I must be lost."

It isn't just simply "walking away" that is being discussed. It's active rebellion against the Lord, which is a sin. The core argument is salvation is lost if people commit a particular sin, even though our sins were already forgiven. In other words, salvation is maintained by one's own actions by not engaging in an already forgiven sin, a salvation by works, and a false gospel. Just so there's no misunderstanding here.

Wordkeeper said:

Discipline? I thought the Holy Spirit automatically cleanses believers from their sins, preserves the elect?

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no.
I read the rest of the post, but it was paraphrased too badly.... in error.. to reply to any more.

SeventyOne said:

What's with all these generic claims of people just "walking away" as if it's no big deal? Like someone just goes out for a stroll one day and turns around and says "Oops, where's the Lord? I must be lost."

It isn't just simply "walking away" that is being discussed. It's active rebellion against the Lord, which is a sin. The core argument is salvation is lost if people commit a particular sin, even though our sins were already forgiven. In other words, salvation is maintained by one's own actions by engaging in an already forgiven sin, a salvation by works, and a false gospel. Just so there's no misunderstanding here.

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The reality is God makes demands and we should be ready to meet those demands or ask for terms of peace, extension of deadlines.

Those who think they can meet those demands and fail have erred.

Those who try to believe those demands don't exist also err.

So it's not a case of someone being led to a good place and then deciding that they don't believe it exists. It's a case of someone being led to a good place and then not agreeing to the hard conditions. Baptism grants you access to learning those hard conditions, drinking from the Rock, rivers of living waters, words of eternal life...

A worse misunderstanding is that people think the problem the text is describing is the existence of a place of punishment called hell facing all men, and the solution of how to avoid that fate is to believe in Jesus.

While trying to avoid anachronisms, we forget that this is not a problem atheists face and as big a portion of this group existed then as they do today. The text is trying to solve a problem that faces both theists and atheists, both then and now: explaining why we exist.

Justification is recognition by God of those people who are not living the unexamined life and have turned to God. They are the people who are being oppressed by Egypt, the implications of futile worldly living. People who are like sheep without shepherds.


The unexamined life is not worth living. Socrates


According to God, His answer is to bury yourself in Christ, union, be of one mind with God, in order to be fulfilled. Israel did not benefit from drinking from the Rock.

When food was held back to teach that it was not important, but maintaining communication links with God was, they complained. Contrast that with Christ's response to sanctification, removing away of the drives of the world:

Matt 4:4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone,
but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

Don't forget that Moses prophesied what Christ would be like and what he would do:

Deut 18
15“The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
.....
17“The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well. 18‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Rebelling against God is fearing the consequences of turning FROM dependence on the worldly urgings, TO dependence on God.

Avoid Israel’s Mistakes
1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

no.
I read the rest of the post, but it was paraphrased too badly.... in error.. to reply to any more.

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And AGAIN, the kingdom of God can be likened to a mustard tree...

Most of the teachings are complex. That's why Jesus reiterated what He taught, in different ways.

Wordkeeper said:

Most of the teachings are complex. That's why Jesus reiterated what He taught, in different ways.

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No. That is basically incorrect.
Someone else said this earlier today or previously.
(Perhaps like some other things, it was also on some internet/ worldwide teaching in the last week or month or year; as often happens....?)
YHWH created everything simple.
It is man who has complicated and corrupted it with many devices.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No. That is basically incorrect.
Someone else said this earlier today or previously.
(Perhaps like some other things, it was also on some internet/ worldwide teaching in the last week or month or year; as often happens....?)
YHWH created everything simple.
It is man who has complicated and corrupted it with many devices.

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John 16
12“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Wordkeeper said:

John 16
12“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

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Simple. Not at all complicated.

Everyone born of HIM, walking WITH HIM, listening to the SHEPHERD'S VOICE as Y'SHUA SAYS, \
is in UNION WITH HIM TODAY.(see "in union" numerous times of the ecclesia all thru the NT; and particularly in answer to Y'SHUA'S PRAYER JOHN 17 which YHWH ABBA ELOHIM ANSWERED).

Not in disagreement with HIM.

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedo′nia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith; 5whereas the aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith.


1 Timothy 1: 3-5 RSV

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Simple. Not at all complicated.

Everyone born of HIM, walking WITH HIM, listening to the SHEPHERD'S VOICE as Y'SHUA SAYS, \
is in UNION WITH HIM TODAY.(see "in union" numerous times of the ecclesia all thru the NT; and particularly in answer to Y'SHUA'S PRAYER JOHN 17 which YHWH ABBA ELOHIM ANSWERED).

Not in disagreement with HIM.

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedo′nia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith; 5whereas the aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith.


1 Timothy 1: 3-5 RSV

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2 Peter 3
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Wordkeeper said:

2 Peter 3
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

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Still Simple.
No contradiction there.

What do you find not simple , if anything ? Perhaps that's where to start to show how simple it is.....