Once Saved, Always Saved?

VanillaSunflowers said:

I never feared my dad or my mom.
Click the link, fear isn't what the scriptures are actually talking about in the context of dread as we understand fear today.

Click to expand...

I read the link and it is exactly what i am talking about. It is a healthy fear or reverence for God. Were you not afraid of being punished as a child. Or did they never disipline you?

I believe the Bible is very clear that GOD will never forsake us, but we can forsake him. It all comes down to Receive or Reject. We all have a choice. We can receive GOD's amazing grace and love and cling to him or reject it and be eternally lost. JESUS CHRIST said His yoke is easy. Truly it is. Just keep your eyes on your Wonderful Savior.

jason_delisle said:

I read the link and it is exactly what i am talking about. It is a healthy fear or reverence for God. Were you not afraid of being punished as a child. Or did they never disipline you?

Click to expand...

It's odd. You say you're talking about what was in the link and yet you're still going on about the fear, dread, that you originally imparted was what you meant by fear of God.

jason_delisle said:

Really? Do you know that the doctrine of OSAS wasn't even a thing prior to John Calvin? The Roman Catholic Church, The Eastern Orthodox, and even Martin Luther did not believe in OSAS. Did you ever think that perhaps OSAS is part of "Satan's toll on the world"? Perhaps it is Satan's plan to cause Christians to feel so comfortable with their salvation that there would be no reason to submit to His Lordship.

Click to expand...

... and on top of that, which looks correct,
why didn't john calvin repent (or did he repent?; his opponents say he didn't)
of either murder or approving of murder (like Shaul? but Shaul repented and was forgiven, called, and chosen by YHWH) ?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Scripture says clearly people refuse to look for the narrow road; or they know how, but reject it - they may have different reasons, but none , obviously , are worth losing their soul for; yet they do.

Click to expand...

Yea, and that sounded good and pious and all that, but you and a million different people are pointing to different roads. Sure, people may reject the proper path, but I'm still not sold that everyone hears the gospel anyhow. I hope your version of salvation is correct. You know what God says about hell. Good ol infinite punishments for finite crimes type of thing. Good luck buddy. I'll, uh, pray for ya.

DoubtfulSalvation said:

Yea, and that sounded good and pious and all that, but you and a million different people are pointing to different roads.

Click to expand...

YHWH, Y'SHUA, SCRIPTURE, all the APOSTLES and disciples of Y'SHUA
all point to the one and only road to life.

What millions and billions of other people do is up to them.

Ken Rank said:

We are saved by grace alone... but the saved (to use a word your comfortable with) work.

Click to expand...

Mathew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Your salvation is contingent on you learning more than the Torah. God does not want me to stone someone for picking fruit on the Sabbath. A law against murder supersedes a law requiring stoning people to death for working on a day of rest.

Elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus told his listeners to love their enemies and to pray for those who persecute them. Salvation is a program of action.

Winken said:

I don't know a single Christian who says that OSAS is wishy-washy / no big deal. On the contrary, sin is the source of grief in the lives of most Christians who admit it. Some confess their grief in prayer, some to another Christian or Christians. I had a Christian lady cry out in agony to me, "I have a secret sin!" My response: "No sins are secret. They are all well-known to your Savior. Confess that sin; rejoice in His forgiveness." I, personally, could not make it through the day if I did not consciously, sincerely, repent. 1 John 1:9 is the key.

Click to expand...

I wish I can say the same. However, I have seen some of these people who call themselves "christians". I have relatives to are those type of "christians". They live their lives in sexual immorality without any guilt because they believe they are saved and absolutely nothing can take it away. They believe that Jesus loves them too much to send them to Hell and heck, He paid the price for all their sins so it really doesn't matter what they do. They made it.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

YHWH, Y'SHUA, SCRIPTURE, all the APOSTLES and disciples of Y'SHUA
all point to the one and only road to life.

What millions and billions of other people do is up to them.

Click to expand...

Hmm. Life must be simpler when you deny the obvious. I don't hold it against you at all. I wish I could look at it that way. If they pointed so clearly, let's say like a beautiful red stop sign than maybe I'd understand. Maybe these threads wouldn't exist on OSAS or sinless perfectionism. We will never know. God decided to keep things more confusing for some reason. Oh, I know, his holy ways are no are ways and his holy thoughts are not our thoughts. I bend my knee in fear and hopefully he won't send me...er....I mean, I hope I don't "choose" hell.

DoubtfulSalvation said:

Whether or not I'm being civil is up to a matter of interpretation I think. You think I'm walking a fine line and completely disagree. At least I can't go to hell if I'm wrong. Besides, I didn't insult anyone or there beliefs. Feel free to report the post if you're so inclined.

Click to expand...

I am not saying you crossed any lines. I just want things to cool down before they do. Remember, we are all Christians here and we are all on the same team. It is ok to disagree but dont loose your cool.

VanillaSunflowers said:

It's odd. You say you're talking about what was in the link and yet you're still going on about the fear, dread, that you originally imparted was what you meant by fear of God.

Click to expand...

Please reread my posts. Especially the parts where i say "healthy fear".

dqhall said:

Mathew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Your salvation is contingent on you learning more than the Torah. God does not want me to stone someone for picking fruit on the Sabbath. A law against murder supersedes a law requiring stoning people to death for working on a day of rest.

Elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus told his listeners to love their enemies and to pray for those who persecute them. Salvation is a program of action.

Click to expand...

There is NO command to not pick fruit and eat it on the Sabbath. People say that all the time, but there is no command that states that! Picking and selling? Picking and storing to sell later? Sure... but picking and eating was not against God's law.. it was against JEWISH LAW and there is a difference.

Regarding the rest, I have been very plain... you are saved by the grace of God alone. However, faith without works is dead... if you are His, you live as He desires because He is Lord not you (or me).

Blessings.

DoubtfulSalvation said:

As alamalakam to you too. This was a nice little story, but doesn't defend the Bible's inability to convey it's most important message "salvation". The road is probably so narrow, because no one knows how to properly get there. Choose the wrong one and it's hell for you buddy!

Click to expand...

Nope. You're just being intellectually lazy.

Selah.

jason_delisle said:

I am not saying you crossed any lines. I just want things to cool down before they do. Remember, we are all Christians here and we are all on the same team. It is ok to disagree but dont loose your cool.

Click to expand...

Ah, well, wrong again friend. Check out my name. Probably not a Christian after all. Just morbidly obsessed with Christianity after a life time of disappointment. I never "lose" my cool. By my standards anyway. Just like salvation, I think we could interpret that 1023004830834 different ways.

aiki said:

Nope. You're just being intellectually lazy.

Selah.

Click to expand...

Believe what you wish, at the end of the day life isn't as simple as what ever bubble you blow up for yourself everyday. The analogy that was concocted was lazy and doesn't even compare to the situation with the Bible and salvation. I liked the subtle or not so subtle insult. Calling my lazy doesn't necessarily mean I'm stupid, but deep down in your heart that's probably what you meant. I respect people with a bit more gall than that. Just say I'm an idiot, it's obvious that's how you feel. Don't worry though, I'm steadily praying for YHWH to soften your heart and teach you how to help people for his name sake. Al slemaken slam lam

DoubtfulSalvation said:

We will never know.

Click to expand...

Why ? Why don't you know ?
YHWH BREATHED SCRIPTURE says YHWH CREATED ALL THINGS SIMPLE. man messed up - devised many devices(evil/ deceptive/ other than TRUTH).
The TRUTH is SIMPLE.
Y'SHUA IS TRUTH.
It's no secret.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Why ? Why don't you know ?
YHWH BREATHED SCRIPTURE says YHWH CREATED ALL THINGS SIMPLE. man messed up - devised many devices(evil/ deceptive/ other than TRUTH).
The TRUTH is SIMPLE.
Y'SHUA IS TRUTH.
It's no secret.

Click to expand...

Listen I really dig the YHWH ansal malakem stuff, but I have to ask, isn't easier just saying Jesus. Oh well, what do I know? In response to your response I will simply or not so simply say that things just aren't that simple. YHWH did create all things like Satan and the fall of man. Of course we can say that man had some sort of choice, but that'd be silly from an intellectual stand point. God created a world that would purposely be subjected to sin, causing multitudes of people to suffer and ultimately seek him for glory and his salvation. Personally, I think that's sick, but that's just me. Now, that's really going a bit off topic, but as you can see, nothing is quite as simple as most Christian like to pass things off as.

DoubtfulSalvation said:

nothing is quite as simple

Click to expand...

You did not say anything from Scripture that is not simple.

You did indicate you don't care what Scripture says by saying(indicating) you reject what you think Scripture says and not finding out what Scripture says (don't change Scripture; that's never good).

That's the problem.

Y'SHUA says whoever rejects HIS WORD, rejects HIM/ rejects YHWH. Simple and TRUE.

DoubtfulSalvation said:

That's all well and good, but what if your wrong. This whole thread was started to espouse a works based/sinless perfection doctrine. It wouldn't surprise me if you did have to be sinless know YHWH's history for vengeance and his enjoyment of the suffering of the innocent, but that's another topic. How do you know your belief is right when there are million other verses to the contrary? That was the idea.

Click to expand...

These supposed contrary versus seem to always not hit it right on the head not like this for instance ..He will finish the works he started in you ..this is a promise shoud this scripture be negated ..this talks of a true conversion of the believer has a PROMISE of the works of christ being finished in them ..we all have this promise ..we cannot believe in christs death ressurection without it being by the sealing power of the holy ghost ..

..and the truth is shown that HE will do the works in us and he works through us to the point that even our works are by him because he knows what is needed perfectly to complete us we do not ...

this follows a simple All Glory to God ..Our works are not even we do but He does when we do things on our own it always tends to hinder stress out and suffer..let him work ..relax ..think about this .

If you relax and pray and just recognize where we are wrong and understand we have eternal life and yes we are punshed for sin and can lose rewards that is bad ..but not to the point we are cast into hell fire.

. we ask for forgiveness he works it out of us over time..we may not like the path he picks or how long some things take but all glory to GOD . We were dead in sin ..when he said the day we eat we shall surely die ..they died spiritually they are dead dead ...the tree of life was there to keep their physical bodies alive to match their spirits being alive when the spirit died ..the gift of physical life eternal was taken make no mistake that tree of life was there to maintain our physical life ..a lot of people do not want to think or realize that when they ate of that tree the death did come instantly and was always meant spiritually, the secondary thought was ....shall they reach forth their hand and take and live forever ..so they were removed from the garden this shows that death that was spoken of was a spiritual one ..and now..Jesus became that tree of life, all that picks from that tree will live forever .. we pass from death ..to life in him and when we accept him we are now made alive again in spirit ..we die still because the tree of life is no longer here for our physical bodies to eat of ..but our new bodies are on the way to match our spirits ..

it is wrong to serve a God of fear of hell ..thats a fact ..and thats why I know that he would not put that there on his sons and daughters ..how can anyone love and really serve when in the back of their minds is a what if hell still is waiting ..because know on is perfect no one can be sure then that hell is coming .

yeshuaslavejeff said:

You did not say anything from Scripture that is not simple.

You did indicate you don't care what Scripture says by saying(indicating) you reject what you think Scripture says and not finding out what Scripture says (don't change Scripture; that's never good).

That's the problem.

Y'SHUA says whoever rejects HIS WORD, rejects HIM/ rejects YHWH. Simple and TRUE.

Click to expand...

Then I think you grossly misinterpreted/perceived what I was saying. I don't reject anything in scripture (that's clearly written) and I've been "finding out" about what the Bible says specifically about salvation for probably 15 years or so. As, I have a certain unfortunate gift from YHWH known as scrupulosity. This is why I've been on every side of the salvation doctrine issue, because it's that simple to just not understand it. Like I said in previous posts there are 32534234 posts for OSAS 23532452345 against. So, who knows. The only thing that's simple about the Bible is the front cover and some people even have an issue with that lol!