- Jul 22, 2014
- 41,508
- 7,861
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
There is a lot to address in what you have said. For me there is a tenseness in in understanding what you personally believe and then putting it down in black and white. So much goes into writing, and so much can be misunderstood as to the writer's actual intent and meaning of their words. If for instance, if I say I am a Baptist, what comes to your mind? There are more than 60 different kinds of Baptist. So which flavor am I? When I narrow it down and say I am an evangelical conservative Baptist you have in your mind something more. Now if I say I have pastored a Southern Baptist Church, a Conservative Baptist Church, and an American Baptist Church has that got your opinion off track? Well I hope it says I take serious when the Bible says "whosoever will may come". I am dogmatic that it is not for me to judge who is saved and who is not, I share Christ under the power of the Holy Spirit, and the rest is between the person and the Holy Spirit plea with that person. Sometimes I plow ground, sometimes I spread seeds, sometimes I water and other times I put sticks in the ground to hold up a new plant, once and a while I am able to harvest someone else's work.
While misunderstandings can happen, I am not off on my understanding on Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved. For one, I have discussed this topic with many different people on different Christian forums for a long time now. Second, there are just certain things you know to your core as a believer in Jesus Christ as being true (By studying God's Word, looking at real life, and knowing a basic concept of morality that is written upon all our hearts). One of those things for me is that God is love and that God is good. If you were to take these two truths and hold onto them, they cannot steer you wrong in any particular subject of theology that you partake upon.
Anyways, there are several different versions of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) or Eternal Security.
OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved. In other words, with this version of OSAS no amount of sin can separate a believer from God (or Christ) even if they were living in a lot of horrible unrepentant sins like lying, adultery, hate, etc.; Sin is merely loss of rewards and not salvation.
OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin does not necessarily mean a believer will be sent to Hell. But the problem with this belief is that it is a justiifcation of a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin. This is still a compromise on God's goodness or morality (Which is wrong).
OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). While this version of Eternal Security attempts to uphold a standard of morality, it does so at the cost of ignoring the prodigal son type believer. In other words, the believer who says they honestly lived for the Lord (and knew they were saved) and then fell away into a life of sin for a time and came back to the faith thru repentance (to be saved again) is either lying or self deceived according to the perspective of those people who hold to this version of Eternal Security. This means, that this type of Eternal Security Proponent is basically saying that the prodigal son believer's trust in Christ in the beginning of their life was a lie (even though they would strongly disagree with them that such is not the case).
Does your view of Eternal Security or OSAS match up with any of the ones above?
Or is your view of Eternal Security different?
If so, please explain.
Also, when you tell people that they are saved by what Jesus did and it is in nothing that they do (and you stop there in your message - telling them nothing about how they are supposed to live holy), then they are going to think they have a license to sin.
farout said:Romans 9 brings challenges to my heart and my Theology. This Scripture makes it clear God calls some to be saved, and He shows Mercy and compassion to some, but not all. In fact God hardens the hearts of some, verse 18.
Whenever a person is confused (or has a wrong interpretation) on a verse or chapter in the Bible, all they need to do is put Jesus in it and it becomes clear.
In other words, when you read Romans 9:1-13, you have to read it in terms of how Paul is talking to the Jews (Romans 9:3-6) and not all individuals and how he is trying to tell them that the purpose of Election of the Promises is thru the line of the Messiah with Jacob's line and not Esau's line. Romans 9:13 is not saying God literally loved Jacob and literally hated Esau as individuals (cf. Luke 14:26). Paul is using them as examples of how God was all powerful enough to know which family line to use so as to bring the Promised Messiah (i.e. Jesus). That is what "Election" here is talking about in Romans 9. It is not talking about individual "Election" but it is talking about the "Election of the Promise" or the genealogical line that Jesus would come thru. The Jews were claiming that they were saved based on being of the seed of Abraham and in keeping God's Laws. But they rejected their Messiah. God does not have to conform to old Jewish ways of thinking just because they rejected their Messiah. He will have mercy on whom He will's in the manner He will's with the Messiah that He has chosen (Which was Jesus Christ).
Now, when you read Romans 9:14-16: Well, you have to realize that it is talking about God's plan of salvation with Jesus Christ being their Messiah of whom the Jews rejected. God is saying He will have mercy in the WAY God wants to do things and not according to Jewish thoughts or beliefs (Which one of their ways they considered a person to be right with God was thru circumcision - See Romans 3:1).
And when you read Romans 9:17-18: Well, you have to realize it is making a parallel. For there is a parallel being made of how God is Sovereign and just in setting up the Promised Line of the Messiah (i.e. by having mercy on whom He wills) versus raising up Pharaoh into power to show God's power. How was God's power shown in the life of the Pharoah? By God making the Pharoah wealthy? Not exactly. God allowed Pharoah to be raised up so that God's power was shown in the life of God's miracles being displayed such as the Ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. This is why Paraoah was raised up. It was so that God's power (or miracles) could be displayed (and proclaimed to all the Earth). Just as God had chosen the line of the Messiah so as to display His power (and proclaim such a thing to all the Earth). So this was not some kind of point to prove individual election but to prove the Election of the Promised Line of the Messiah (Who is Jesus Christ). For Jesus is the greatest miracle (of the best form of Election) that there is.
Anyways, when you read on down to verse 24 (Romans 9:24), the point is clear what Paul is really talking about.
farout said:But in John 3:16 it says everyone who believes in Him will not perish. So those who are the "everyone" must also be the "called" ones.
Please re-read John 3:16. It uses the word "should" next to the words "not perish." For the word "should" is not a guarantee.
That would be like me saying, "I should be over your house --- but I have other things I have to do."
Besides, within the Scriptures, Jesus also says,
"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).
So it is not just in receiving Jesus whereby we will not be judged but it is also in receiving Jesus's words, too. For the word (by which Jesus has spoken) can judge anyone on the last day; And Jesus says if anyone even looks upon a woman in lust, their entire body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).
farout said:Likewise in John 10;27-30 Those who are held eternally secure in the Fathers hand are also those who are shown mercy, compassion, and "called" thus are those one's "saved".
Verse 27 tells us the type of sheep who cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand. Verse 27 says these are sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. So these are not sheep that are lazy or who are being dragged about by their necks on leashes here. Now, if you are not in disagreement that these type of sheep are defined as living righteously and as following Jesus, but yet you are saying that God specifically designs or makes them to be saved (while choosing not to save others - when He could have saved them) then you are saying that God is a respecter of persons. Meaning, that God creates some to be saved and God specifically designs certain men to not be saved. As if God wants people to not be saved. Why would God wish destruction upon anyone? Is not God good? Is not God loving? Why would God not choose to have everyone be saved if He has the power to make everyone saved? Surely that would be the case if God was the One who was deciding the fate of people's salvation. For no good God would want to see even one person be lost (if He had the power or capacity to save them). For did not Jesus leave the 99 sheep to go after the one sheep who went astray?
farout said:Romans 1:19,29 say He has made His attributes has been shown to all of us, we are without excuse for not knowing who God is. John 1:9 says the true Light has been given to everyone. Even people who have never heard of Jesus Christ have had some "light" that they are accountable for. Only God is able to judge who is secure in His hands, this includes those who are unable due to circumstances of age or ability.
This is simply not true. The apostle John was able to know (by his judgment) that they were in fact saved (See 1 John 5:13). Jesus says judge not by outward appearance but judge righteously. 2 Timothy 3:16 says we can correct others according to the Word of God. Paul says do not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove (judge) them (Ephesians 5:11). The unfruitful works of darkness is talking about any kind of sin.
Anyways, I will continue to reply to the rest of what you had written in another post (otherwise this post will be waaaaaay too long to read).
May God bless you.
And please be well.
...
Last edited:
Upvote
0