Once saved, always saved?

[Doubt3312]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

 

[Nails74]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

I have yet to find a verse in the Bible that says a "prayer of salvation" is what saves you. Take a quick read through John chapter 6. You will find that Jesus consistently speaks about "those believing" and "those coming to him"...continuing actions. When God changes your heart, there is no going back.

Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. [Romans 12:2]
Note Paul uses the Greek word for "metamorphosis"...think butterfly

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come. [2 Corinthians 5:17]

 

[texastig]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

Yes, you are saved. You just got off track. Human suffering is caused by humans, not God. No need for intellectual doubt, the proof for Christ is overwhelming. You must take the time to study it.
On Christ the solid rock you stand, all other ground is sinking sand.

 

[lucaspa]

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

It depends on which denomination you ask.

There is a difference of opinion about this among Christians. texastig obvoiusly belongs to a denomination that bleieves "once saved always saved". Those denominations tend to be from the Calvinist tradition. My denomination -- the United Methodist Church -- believes that you can lose salvation. Salvation for the UMC is not a "one-time" thing, but a process as we walk with God. If we turn our back on God, we can lose our salvation.

I emphasize the "can" because there is no hard and fast criteria for what would cause us to lose salvation. Judgement is God's, not ours. As a guess, I would think that serial rape, murder, genocide, or other repeated heinous offenses without repentence would qualify. Would your particular situation qualify to lose salvation? I honestly don't know. That would be up to God and He hasn't seen fit to send me an e-mail on the subject.

 

[texastig]

texastig obvoiusly belongs to a denomination that bleieves "once saved always saved". Those denominations tend to be from the Calvinist tradition.

lucaspa, I do not belong to a denomination. I belong to Jesus.

 

[GA777]

Nope, I'm 99% sure. Tho. you may get some answers saying yes, because of misinterpretation of a few verses leading some people to generalize these 2 verses, and forget about the rest of the bible saying completely otherwise. And about the suffering, we can discuss that here. God has used this suffering to prevent any future suffering

 

[Nails74]

Nope, I'm 99% sure. Tho. you may get some answers saying yes, because of misinterpretation of a few verses leading some people to generalize these 2 verses, and forget about the rest of the bible saying completely otherwise. And about the suffering, we can discuss that here. God has used this suffering to prevent any future suffering

Just to clarify...to which question are you answering no?

And can you provide the two verses that you mentioned?

 

[elman]

Yes, you are saved. You just got off track. Human suffering is caused by humans, not God. No need for intellectual doubt, the proof for Christ is overwhelming. You must take the time to study it.
On Christ the solid rock you stand, all other ground is sinking sand.

There is a great deal of human suffering that is not caused by humans. I agree God is not the cause either. I think you are on shaky ground if you were to tell a wicked person they can go on being wicked. The bible does not support that position. Read Ezekiel 18.

 

[Faulty]

Check out the parable and explanation of the parable of the sower.

The rocky soil are those who receive the word gladly, believe it, and endure for a while, but end up falling away. An example of this is Simon the sorcerer in the book of Acts. He believes for a while, and is even baptized, but falls away, and according to early church writings, becomes a strong opponent to christianity. He was rocky soil personified.

As such, since you describe yourself as an example of what Jesus described as rocky soil, there is no assurance you can have your faith was genuine to begin with. As tou'll see with the parable, the good soil are those who persevere by nature.

This isn't necessarily bad. Pray that God makes you into good soil, and to test your faith as both Peter and James directs, for it's through ones trials and hardships that their faith is proved genuine, as a false faith will evaporate due to the burdens of the world.

 

[lucaspa]

lucaspa, I do not belong to a denomination. I belong to Jesus.

Not formally, but you do belong to the Calvinist tradition. That is the tradition that has "once saved, always saved".

I equally "belong to Jesus" but do not hold to that doctrine. In all sincerity, you need to understand where your particular beliefs fit into the diverse set of beliefs that is Christianity.

 

[Yada Yah]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

Doubt, from your post I'm unclear if you truly wish now to be saved or only question whether given what information you supplied about yourself if you are saved?

I ask because to my understanding of the Scriptures, being "saved"; that is your soul being born anew from above and made immortal while clothed in God's set-apart and cleansing Spirit is a consequnce of accepting the offer of covenant relationship He offers. If you wish to disassociate yourself from God and not walk with Him, not accept Him as head of the family, than why would you wish to coexist eternally with Him and among His adopted children?

Respectfully,

-Yada Yah

 

[GA777]

Just to clarify...to which question are you answering no? The title's

And can you provide the two verses that you mentioned?[/b]You've mentioned them already[/b]

Answers in bold.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

What kind of god would save on the basis of a technicality? Is that really what you make of the creator of all things who loved you enough to forgive you for all your sin before you ever even asked for it and make things right between you and Him through His Son?

Do you really believe your description of the Christian faith is the essence of what it means in John where it says "God is love?"

You abandoned the promise of eternal unconditional love from God who is love and loved you in the most incredible way imaginable for "I don't know" and existentialism (a preoccupation with death and the meaninglessness of life without faith that there is more)?

And you are happy with this trade off?

Selling your birthright for a bowl of soup?

And you feel like you are the one who is justified in being angry with God?

 

[chilehed]

...So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God...

1. OSAS is not a teaching that is universally held among Christians. In fact, it's a minority view, and there are very good reasons to conclude that it's wrong. The scriptures specifically speak of those who were saved who later lost their salvation.

2. Those who believe that one can lose his salvation also say that you can't do it by accident. In order to fall into the state that Catholics call mortal sin one must wilfully reject God; there's an aspect of subjective culpability involved. You say you turned against it, but the (often unconscious) reasons behind that are important, and we're distressingly apt to deceive ourselves.

3. I'm not competent to judge the state of your soul.

 

[Ronald]

To Doubt3312,
Christ gave us the "Parable of the Sower" (Matt. 13:3-23) who sows the seed of the gospel. In this parable there are four types of people who respond to the gospel. Some seed is scattered on rocky soil and the birds quickly take it away -- that's Satan btw, stealing it from you. Some seed is scattered on shallow soil, it takes root but when the sun comes out, it scorches the plant and it withers and dies because the roots did not go deep enough to receive water. Other seed is scattered in soil, it grows awhile and takes root but thorns and weeds grow around it (the trials and tribulations in life: pain and suffering) and choke the life out of it. And then some seed is planted in fertile soil that grows to maturity and produces fruit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self control.
You fall into the recipient of the seed planted on rocky soil or the plant that got choked to death. You never really believed to begin with because you did not grow to produce any fruit. You withered and/or got choked.
Once saved always saved, but only those who persevere to the end ... only those who are tested and challenged with all the Devils schemes and endure ... only those who when they see pain and suffering in the world do not blame God ... only those who understand that God causes all things work for good for those who love Him and are called to His purpose ... only the seed planted in fertile soil will grow but this seed needs to be nourished with the word. You never really loved the word of God where you just couldn't get enough ... you never really loved Jesus and trusted him because that's what it is all about, a trusting relationship with God. The Holy Spirit does not make mistakes by saving one who later turns into an atheist or agnostic. You never received the Holy Spirit to begin with, otherwise you would not be where you are.

The good news is, you are still alive and it's not too late to really open your heart and throw away those doubts and lies you've been told. Go back, pray and read like your life depended on it -- it does. Ask and you will receive, but humble yourself. Find a good church that speaks to your heart. Don't surround yourself with antichrists who will snatch the seed from you!

 

[Nails74]

Answers in bold.

Can you please illustrate how I have misused 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Romans 12:2?

 

[GA777]

We change our own hearts. God doesn't do that for us, or else he could have changed us from the beginning and prevented every soul from dying/suffering in the afterlife.

These 2 verses could be interpreted differently. This is 1 interpretation out of many. In order for the interpretation to be valid, it must be in accord with the other bible verses. Jesus waned us many times to stay awake , because we don't know the hour of death. And he explained what will happen to those who will sleep before his coming and according to the Revelations, many who believe in God will put on the mark of the beast and won't end up in heaven. The end is the most decisive time if not the only decisive time.

In the 1st verse, he's commanding for a change, and in the 2nd, he's stating that everyone who starts to trust and love Jesus, will immediately change.

 

[Hospes]

Not formally, but you do belong to the Calvinist tradition. That is the tradition that has "once saved, always saved".

I equally "belong to Jesus" but do not hold to that doctrine. In all sincerity, you need to understand where your particular beliefs fit into the diverse set of beliefs that is Christianity.

Assuming you understand "the Calvinist tradition", I am sure you also understand it is a gross and misleading oversimplification to pin it with "once saved, always saved".

Here's a rule to live by: always describe your opponent's beliefs using the language he uses to describe them. (It avoids unnecessarily annoying other Christians.)

 

[Doubt3312]

Yes, you are saved. You just got off track. Human suffering is caused by humans, not God. No need for intellectual doubt, the proof for Christ is overwhelming. You must take the time to study it.
On Christ the solid rock you stand, all other ground is sinking sand.

Yes, human suffering is caused by humans, but it is also caused by chance and the natural world. The problem I have is not whether God is directly causing it or not (if He was causing it, he would obviously not be a loving God) but that He allows it to occur. I stand by the maxim that if a person sees evil occurring, and s/he has the ability to intervene and stop the evil, then that person becomes responsible for the outcome of that evil. So, suffering is bad, and God has the ability to prevent it - why doesn't He?

And by suffering, I'm not speaking about stubbed toes or broken finger nails... I'm talking about starvation, genocide, drought, and events of that magnitude.

What kind of god would save on the basis of a technicality? Is that really what you make of the creator of all things who loved you enough to forgive you for all your sin before you ever even asked for it and make things right between you and Him through His Son?

Do you really believe your description of the Christian faith is the essence of what it means in John where it says "God is love?"

You abandoned the promise of eternal unconditional love from God who is love and loved you in the most incredible way imaginable for "I don't know" and existentialism (a preoccupation with death and the meaninglessness of life without faith that there is more)?

And you are happy with this trade off?

Selling your birthright for a bowl of soup?

And you feel like you are the one who is justified in being angry with God?

I would hope that God would not "save" on a technicality. As for the second question, I'm not certain that all of that truly happened... that's why I'm here, to see if venting my doubts helps.

No, I do not believe my description of the Christian faith constructs God as being "love." I do not think a loving God would allow human suffering.

Am I happy with my "tradeoff," as you call it? Actually, yes, because now at least I can be comfortable enough with uncertainty to question things and figure out the truth; not simply take what's told to me at face value. As far as I'm concerned, I didn't "trade" anything. It isn't as though I sat down in a room with God and he laid two options on the table with all the answers and I "chose" to take him or leave him.
The doubts I have arose as a result of my own intellect... so if anyone's to blame for it, it's him, the one who supposedly created my intellect.

Finally, yes, I think any conscious being has a right to question the universe, and anyone with a moral sense has the right to be angered by what they see as "wrongs."

 

[Doubt3312]

By the way, bullying is a bad evangelical technique.