Once saved; always saved?

[Andrew]

Can sinning cause us to lose our salvation?

The answer lies in this verse:

* Romans 5:19
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Man is a sinner because of what Adam had done, not because he sins -- he sins because he has inherited Adam's sinful nature.

Likewise, a Christian is righteous because of what Jesus Christ had done on the cross, not because he does good -- he does good because Christ is in him.

When we were sinners, our good deeds could not undo what Adam had done and make us righteous. Similarly, now that we are righteous, our bad deeds or sins cannot undo what Christ had done and make us unrighteous!

If we believe that the former is impossible but the latter, possible, then we are saying that:

• Adam's work was more effective than Christ's, when the opposite is true (Romans 5:15).

• Our sinning is more powerful than the perfect work and blood of Christ.

• The blood of bulls and goats in the Old Testament is more "potent" than the blood of Christ, since the former could atone for the sins of Israel for one whole year, but that the latter loses its cleansing effect the moment we sin.

Nature itself teaches us that once a caterpillar has transformed into a butterfly ("born-again"), even if it lands on a rubbish heap ("falls into sin") rather than flowers, it cannot change back into a caterpillar. Likewise, a man cannot be physically "unborn", neither can his spirit that has been born of God.

Taking the analogy further, the butterfly will not remain on the rubbish heap. Its nature is not to remain on smelly refuse. It will leave, sooner or later, for the fields of fragrant flowers. Likewise, a Christian cannot keep on sinning. It is not in his new nature to do so.

Another reason why sinning cannot cause a Christian to lose his salvation is that, in the first place, God does not even keep a record of his sins. This is because all of his sins -- past, present and future -- were already punished in the body of Christ on the cross. In fact, God is not even counting men's (not just Christians) sins against them!

* Isaiah 53:5
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
* Romans 4:8
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
* 2 Corinthians 5:19
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
* Hebrews 8:12
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
* Hebrews 10:17
17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

So, if God still counts men's sins against them, then He is not being faithful and just to the finished work of His Son.

Now does knowing how much God has forgiven you and how gracious he is make you go: "YIPPEEE! Now I can go out and sin!" Or does it make you fall in love with your Saviour and want to do what is right."

Granted there will always be a few sick clowns who abuse grace, but the majority of Christians who have been touched by God's unconditional forgiveness and grace will be like the woman who love much becos she knows she has been forgiven much.

 

[He put me back together]

Andrew, if these scriptures uphold "Once saved, always saved," don't they also uphold "Everyone is going to heaven?" What is your opinion of 1 Pet in my earlier post?

 

[look]

Only sin after the similitude of Adam's sin results in spiritual death.

I agree. This does show that yes, you can lose your salvation.

Let's look at what Adam did. He knew God and was made ruler over all creation. When Eve disobeyed the lone commandment regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam hadn't yet turned his back to God.

Adam made the fully conscious decision to turn from God to sin. It was then that the glory that covered him had left him and that's when he noticed that they were naked.

Adam actually was the first man to be born again. Adam was born again into death and fear. Today, we get born again into Eternal Life.

The point I'm making with Adam is you can (freewill) consciously, purposely, make a choice to turn your back to God and take up with a different master. That is the sin unto death. However, most of us will resist that, but Satan will try to deceive us until we do decide to turn back to the world, away from God. The Holy Spirit will keep trying to bring us back under the Blood. But when any of us tell Him to leave you alone and turn away from Him (it's happened before), He will.

That's why David pleaded with God not take the Holy Spirit from him, the Life and Light can be taken from us, as well. There is a sin unto death. Therefore OSAS is a lie and has tricked many, many people to forsake holiness and to go back into the darkness from which they came out of.

I have a question for you, concerning Adam...

If Adam disobeyed God concerning the fruit of a tree, which turned the whole world upside down and death reigned, shouldn't we abide to the First commandment Jesus gave us? You know, the one that tells us to love God with all of our spirit, soul and body (paraphrased)?

What is the difference between one sin and another? They all have the same results, that is, death.

Thank you Dida...

 

[SavedByGrace3]

of.

I have a question for you, concerning Adam...

If Adam disobeyed God concerning the fruit of a tree, which turned the whole world upside down and death reigned, shouldn't we abide to the First commandment Jesus gave us? You know, the one that tells us to love God with all of our spirit, soul and body (paraphrased)?

What is the difference between one sin and another? They all have the same results, that is, death.

Thank you Dida...

I am pooped tonight my brother in Jesus.
I will come back in the morning.
God bless all my CF friends!
Didy

 

[Andrew]

Andrew, if these scriptures uphold "Once saved, always saved," don't they also uphold "Everyone is going to heaven?" What is your opinion of 1 Pet in my earlier post?

OSAS never says that all automatically go to heaven. How do the scriptures I gave support that?? Everyone agrees that salvation while offered to all, has to be received by faith -- "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved...."

 

[Andrew]

He put me back together,

to answer your question on 2 Peter:

2 Peter 2:20,21
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Who are "they" here? It becomes clear when we read the whole chapter. In fact, verse 1 already tells us that "they" are the "false teachers" (and the like) who deny Christ. And people who deny Christ cannot be Christians.

* 2 Peter 2:1
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

The entire chapter talks about the terribly sinful lifestyles of these people and the punishment that awaits them. Besides introducing "destructive heresies", they are "not afraid to slander celestial beings", "blaspheme in matters they do not understand", behave like "brute beasts", "carouse in broad daylight", have "eyes full of adultery", "every stop sinning", are "experts in greed", "appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature" and so on. People who live like that are certainly not Christians.

* Romans 6:2
2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
* 1 John 3:6,9
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

In fact, Peter makes a distinction between such "ungodly" and "lawless" people, and "righteous" and "godly" Christians, when he talks about Noah's flood, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In other words, there is a clear "they" (the lawless non-believers) and "you" (the Christian) differentiation.

* 2 Peter 2:5-9
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

The last verse in this chapter also shows us that Peter is not talking about Christians.

* 2 Peter 2:22
22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

The Bible usually refers to believers as "sheep" and non-believers as "goats" or "wolves". Here, the terms "dog" and "sow" are used. Straightaway, we know that the verse is not referring to Christians.

Also, it does not say "a sheep transforms into a dog again and returns to its vomit". Once you are born again and have become a "sheep" belonging to the Good Shepherd, Jesus Christ, you cannot lose your salvation and turn back into a goat or dog again! You will never find such analogies in the Bible. Nature itself teaches us that -- a butterfly cannot change back into a caterpillar.

Finally, "knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" or having "known the way of righteousness" (verses 20 and 21) does not make one a Christian. There are Bible scholars who know Jesus Christ and the gospel, and yet are not Christians.

There are people who have attended church for many years who are not born again. My friend's mother was one such person. We both thought that she was a Christian, since she had been attending an Anglican church for many years. One Sunday morning, she attended our church service. When our Pastor gave the altar call, to our surprise, she raised her hand, went to the front and prayed to receive Jesus Christ into her heart.

The KJV translation shows more clearly that verses 20 and 21 refer only to head knowledge of Jesus Christ and not genuine conversion:

* 2 Peter 2:20,21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

In fact, in verse 21, it says that the "way of righteousness" was only "delivered" to them, to which they rejected it by turning their backs on it. A person who has been shown the way of righteousness -- Jesus Christ -- yet turn his back on the Saviour, is obviously not a Christian.

I have explained the other "difficult" passages that seem to support OSNAS here:
http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/difficultpassages.html

 

[Andrew]

That's why David pleaded with God not take the Holy Spirit from him, the Life and Light can be taken from us, as well.

David lived before Christ and Pentecost. Jesus had not yet died and shed his blood. The Holy Spirit could never indwell the OC saints (only come upon them) permanently like He can today becos the blood of bulls and goats cld not take away sins.

Today, Christ has died. His blood washed the believer SO CLEAN that the Holy Spirit can actually abide in us "forever"! Praise God. That is why you can still pray in tongues after you've sinned, proving He is still there -- never leaves nor forsakes.

So this idea that the Holy Spirit can leave when we sin simply contradicts what Jesus said:

Heb 13:5 ... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever,

 

[look]

Don’t be deceived!
According to Scripture,
it is possible to:

• * drift away (Heb. 2:1)
  * wander away (Mt. 18:12,13)
  * wander away from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
  * wander away from the truth and destroy the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
  * lose your saltiness (Lk. 14:34,35)
  * fall away (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
  * fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
  * stop believing and fall away in time of testing (Lk. 8:13)
  * turn away from the faith (Mt. 24:10)
  * wander away from a pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith and turn to meaningless talk (1 Tim. 1:5,6)
  * turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
  * have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)
  * leave the straight way and follow the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15)
  * be like a branch that is thrown away and withers (Jn. 15:6)
  * go astray (Jn. 16:1)
  * turn away to follow Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
  * depart from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1)
  * turn your ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (2 Tim. 4:4)
  * acquire a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
  * fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
  * turn away from him who warns us from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
  * become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
  * not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
  * have God take away your share in the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
  * be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position (2 Pet. 3:17)
  * be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings (Heb. 13:9)

 

[look]

The Righteous Can Die Spiritually
​

—Dan Corner—

[You are permitted and encouraged to duplicate this article
but only without any alterations, additions or omissions.]

There are many death blows to eternal security found in Scripture. At the very core of this non-Christian doctrine is the concept that a person once saved (a righteous person) will not die spiritually over his sin. The clarity of the Scriptures to the contrary is overwhelming from Genesis through Revelation starting with the first time God ever spoke to Adam, which was his only commandment for him to observe and the consequence of disobedience:

And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die” (Gen 2:16,17)

Adam was righteous and resided in the garden of Eden, a paradise garden only for the righteous. He was expelled from it after he sinned and died, as warned. Adam died spiritually the same day he sinned, yet lived physically many years afterwards to be 930 years old (Gen. 5:5). As God’s first statement about sin was issued to a righteous man concerning his own spiritual death through sin, the devil’s first lie was devised to make Eve dismiss this eternal truth, which led to her disobedience and spiritual death. Please note that Eve never sinned until she was deceived into thinking that sin would not bring about her own spiritual death. Furthermore, the doctrine of eternal security is identical to the devil’s first lie, that is, the righteous will not die spiritually through sin:

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. (Gen 3:4)

This same consequence of disobedience for the righteous is repeated later by the prophet Ezekiel:

Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezek 18:24)

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. (Ezek 33:18)

Clearly, a righteous person can die spiritually because of his sin, which again is the antithesis of the teaching of eternal security.

New Testament warnings to the righteous about them dying through sin are repeated, especially by Paul and James. The familiarity between these and the Gen. 2:17 and Ezekiel passages is evident:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)

Those Scriptures are written to the saints at Rome, who were righteous:

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. (Rom. 1:7,8)

By the way, if the reader would compare Rom. 8:13 to Gal. 5:19-21 and 6:8,9, where Paul wrote the same truth three different ways, it becomes unmistakable that he was referring to the spiritual death of the righteous (not physical death) for those who live according to the sinful nature because he compared you will die in Rom. 8:13 to not inherit the kingdom of God in Gal. 5:19-21 and reap destruction instead of reap eternal life in Gal. 6:8,9. Apparently Paul repeatedly warned Christians of this possibility, unlike our dark day which denies these same eternal truths. Especially focus on Gal. 5:21.

James describes the sinning process, which leads to the spiritual death of the righteous:

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

As already shown this sinning process to spiritual death dates back to the Garden of Eden, then to Ezekiel, then to Paul the grace teacher. James elaborated upon this eternal truth at the very end of his own epistle:

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20, NASB)

Notice how straying from the truth (a name for Jesus in John 14:6) is to jeopardize the soul of the righteous person to (eternal) death. But if that same person is brought back where he was before he strayed, his soul will once again be safe (or saved) in the truth. Also shown here is the truth that a saved person can become a sinner again, by straying from the truth.
How the Righteous Can Prevent Their Own Spiritual Death
The Lord Himself taught how the righteous can prevent their own spiritual death:

I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death. (John 8:51)

Clearly, the Lord was not talking about physical death, since many righteous people remained faithful to the very end, such as the Apostle Paul did, yet died physically. Again, since Paul died physically, Jesus couldn’t have been referring to physical death. Hence, the Lord gave the preventative to spiritual death as being simply to keep his word or continue to obey to the end.

Jesus restated the same eternal safeguard for spiritual death in different words when he spoke the following:

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25,26)

The word translated “believes” in v. 26 is a continuous tense in the Greek. Jesus declared that the righteous would never die spiritually as long as they maintained this type of belief, which is shown elsewhere as being a trusting, submitting, obeying faith which produces good fruit and holy behavior. In other words, the Lord was saying in John 11 that a righteous person would have to continue to believe so he would not die spiritually, which does not always happen. The Lord taught elsewhere that it is possible for a believer to become an unbeliever, at which point he would fall away as a result:

Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)

That was the Lord’s own interpretation of the following verse:

Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. (Luke 8:6)

To save their doctrine, the eternal security teachers (the Scripture distorters) sometimes amazingly argue that the people of Luke 8:13 only had a spurious or false faith, but that is not the text speaking—just their own faulty theology. Not only does Lk. 8:13 say such people did believe for a while, it also states that they receive the word with joy. Real, genuine plant life, likened unto spiritual life, sprung up from the word of God, which was received with joy. The problem is such don’t continue with God because they fail the test of persecution for godly living.
They Received the Word
To receive the word as in Luke 8:13 is the same description of what happened to Cornelius and his household who experienced true salvation. Just before Peter retold what happened with them we read:

The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. (Acts 11:1)

Similar to that are two additional Scriptures which refer to others who likewise received the word of God. According to the context, such describes that they got saved after receiving the word of God:

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (Acts 8:12-14, KJV)

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. (Acts 17:11,12, KJV) Please note that the same Greek work translated received in Luke 8:13 is also found in Acts 8:14; 11:1 and 17:11. Luke 8:13 is referring to people who had experienced true salvation, just like these other Scriptures do because such people received the word. Yet the Luke 8:13 passage states they ceased believing.

Getting back to John 8:51 and 11:25,26, the Lord shared the same facts as stated there in yet a different Scripture, also from John:

I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:47-51)

Please note the word believes in v. 47 is also a continuous tense in the Greek. Believing in Jesus is compared to eating the bread of life, which will prevent spiritual death, and enable one to live forever. We eat this bread by continuing or maintaining our submissive faith in Jesus, that same truth as shown at John 11:25, 26. When one continues to believe he will keep God’s word, the preventative for the righteous dying spiritually, as stated in John 8:51.

see next post

 

[look]

At another time, the Lord spoke to those on the very edge of spiritual death in Rev. 3:2:

Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

Please note it was the personal responsibility of the ones about to die to strengthen themselves spiritually. God was not going to do it for them, even though it was His will for them to be strengthened. The spiritual negligence and sloth of the righteous can be fatal.
Be Faithful, Even to the Point of Death
The Rev. 3:2 passage is similar to the warning given by the Lord in the preceding chapter to faithful Christians:

Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Rev 2:10,11)

Certainly, spiritual death is implied since the faithful Christians at Smyrna were warned by Jesus to continue being faithful to the point of physical death (to overcome), so that they would not be hurt at all by the second death. The second death is another name for the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14; 21:8).

So what happens to a person with spiritual life (a Christian) who is not faithful to the end of his life? He will die spiritually. This possibility of the righteous dying spiritually is reiterated yet another time by the Lord himself, yet ends joyfully because he repents and returns to salvation:

For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. So they began to celebrate. (Luke 15:24)

But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. (Luke 15:32)

Please note that the prodigal was spiritually dead and spiritually lost at the same point in time, that is when he was in sexual immorality and wild living. After he repented he became alive again. Those words are very important. It says again. That means he had spiritual life before he left the Father to indulge in wild living and sexual immorality. He got that same spiritual life back again when he repented and returned to serve the Father. In other words, he was righteous yet died spiritually through sin (became lost) and later became spiritually alive again when he turned from his wickedness to serve God. (This is Jesus’ teaching not some cultist or so-called works salvation person.) Hence, as Jesus taught elsewhere that one passes from spiritual death to spiritual life at the point of getting born again, He also taught the same person can pass back from spiritual life to spiritual death through sin, as happened to the prodigal.

This same truth about spiritual death for the righteous is echoed by the Apostle John in his first epistle:

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. (1 John 5:16)

John wrote about the spiritual death of the righteous here. He stated that sin would bring that about as happened to Adam, as well as the prodigal. Another definite example of a righteous man dying, but not physically, was King David when he turned to do evil. Ezekiel warned such a righteous person will die, yet David continued to live physically as did Adam and the prodigal. These facts, of course, are all opposed by the eternal security teachers who want us to believe the devil’s teaching, as stated in Gen. 3:4. They agree with the devil and try to confuse the issue by saying the death of 1 John 5:16 is physical death, with Ananias and Sapphira being examples. In other words, they believe God in his wrath over their sin of lying to the Holy Spirit struck them dead in their unrepentant wickedness and rewarded them by taking them quicker into His paradise kingdom, which is reserved only for the holy and pure of heart. By teaching like this the eternal security teachers not only proclaim a license for immorality, but also contradict yet another Scripture, which shows that all liars will go to the lake of fire:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

For some reason the eternal security teachers seem oblivious to Scriptures which show that God does sometimes strike the wicked (or unsaved) physically dead for their sin:

But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the LORD put him to death. (Gen 38:7)

Those Widows Died Spiritually
Last but not least, let’s not forget the widows of 1 Tim. 5:6, which Paul wrote of:

But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Immediately afterwards, he refers to some widows that turned from their dedication to Christ (v. 11) to follow Satan (v. 15). Notice: those widows Paul knew didn’t die physically, yet were dead (spiritually) because of their sins. This passage doesn’t refer to those never saved, as we may assume could be the case in Lk. 9:60 and Mt. 8:22, but instead to those who were once alive spiritually like the prodigal, because they previously had a dedication to Christ and later turned away from it.

Green renders 1 Tim. 5:6, as follows:

But she who lives in self-pleasure has died while living.

Dear reader, don’t be deceived by those parroting the devil’s first lie to our generation, the eternal security teachers. The Bible is clear that the righteous will die spiritually, if they turn to do evil, as Adam, King David, the prodigal and the widows of 1 Tim. 5:6 did, which is also the clear teaching of Ezekiel. If you are a real Christian, you must faithfully follow Jesus and endure persecution for living godly to the end of your life to enter God’s kingdom. Don’t be deceived by the false teachers who want to convince you otherwise. Much more information regarding the subject of eternal security is found in our 801 page book, The Believer’s Conditional Security, which is the most exhaustive and comprehensive refutation to this false doctrine ever written.

Return to Evangelical Outreach
www.evangelicaloutreach.org

 

[Andrew]

Common spiritual sense:

Just think about it for a moment folks. OSNAS means

1. Jesus saved you but from then on you are on your own. If you don't do well enough, you don't make it in the end.

2. This means that you are co-Saviour with Jesus. IOW, if you do make it to heaven eventually, you had a part to play. IOW, it is the blood of Christ plus your efforts and works.

3. Jesus did not really save you or you are not really saved. You are just given the "potential" to enter heaven. You are not really saved in that sense, becos you still have to save yourself. It's like you are drowning and all Jesus did was throw you a life jacket with a book of instructions. You may or may not stay alive depending on what YOU do with the life jacket and instructions.

 

[RevKidd]

Why have people intentionally or unintentionally avoided my statements about my friend.

Sure they can. One of my best friends in highschool and after was what I would consider a "true-blue" believer, and was for most of his life. He went on mission trips, went to the Holy Lands. He is someone that I considered to be on fire. He believed. Until he met this girl. She is very beautiful and nice. They dated for a while and then she stopped it. After that it was all down hill from their. IMO, he almost lost his mind when it came to women. They became an obsession to him. Having to have a girlfriend became the #1 one thing. I saw him about a year and half ago and he has just involved himself with things that I never thought that he would have done. Women, drinkin, I think that some mary jo anna use was going on. I was so uncomfortable. He wasn't my friend anymore. Several years ago we would sit around and talk about missions and ministry work and doing thing for God. Now it seems he is more intrested in doing girls....

Is he still saved. Ultimately it is up to God. But I will tell you this. I would not want to be in his shoes if God required my soul.

Really, if you think about it. I don't think he is saved anymore. How can you live that life and claim to be a child of God.

Some people might say, "Well he was never saved to begin with". I say hogwash. Yes he was.

I still pray for him. That one day he will come back to God.

Is my friend saved? That's the question. This is a very true story. Not one made up to try and prove a point. How can we intentionally turn away from God and expect to receive his Grace.

I understand that sin does not have consequences if we REPENT and turn away from our sin. But to say that we do not sin, that we don't miss the mark in our lives after salvation is a result of pride IMO. Paul said that "He dies daily". He warned about sin that leads to death. Jesus instructed the believers on how to handle a brother that has sinned against you and what to do if he does not repent of that sin. Paul warned us to not cause other believers to sin.

No one has commented on my explanation of the parable of the sower either. If someone hears the word and receives the word with joy but yet because he has no root, and because of the persecution he receives BECAUSE OF THE WORD, he FALLS AWAY. What does he fall away from and stumble from. In order to fall off a ladder I have to climb it first.

God Bless.

 

[Andrew]

GRACE IS GETTING WHAT YOU DON'T DESERVE, MERCY IS NOT GETTING WHAT YOU DO DESERVE.

Interesting signature RevKidd. That's one of my Pastor's oft-used lines in his grace sermons. Do you really believe and understand it?

Your friend does not deserve heaven right? So does he get heaven if "grace is getting what you do not deserve"?

It seems like he deserves hell right? So does he get hell if "Mercy is not getting what you do deserve"?

Start with the right spirit first, then the scriptures will come alive. Ask yourself what OSNAS teachings do to your spirit.

 

[RevKidd]

Interesting signature RevKidd. That's one of my Pastor's oft-used lines in his grace sermons. Do you really believe and understand it?

Look, that's not what we are talking about. If you could, please stick to the discussion at hand. If you want to talk about my signature than start another thread

Your friend does not deserve heaven right? So does he get heaven if "grace is getting what you do not deserve"?

According to my sinful nature I don't deserve anything. However God provided atonement for my sin through His Son Jesus Christ, that act of grace I don't deserve nor will I ever deserve it. My friend doesn't deserve grace now nor 6 years ago when he was on fire for god. But, God who passes all understanding still provides that grace. In turn how can we not live according to His Word.

Andrew, is it ok for someone to reject the word of God who knows within himself what God's word clearly states and still call themselves Christian and saved. How can someone have grace, have the holy spirit abiding with him when he is living in a state that does not bring glory to god and is defiling His Temple?

It seems like he deserves hell right? So does he get hell if "Mercy is not getting what you do deserve"?

I deserve hell Andrew, you do too. Everyone deserves an eternity of torment. But as I stated before, how can we live a life that is in direct violation to God's Word knowing that we have this grace and mercy. I might as well spit on the body of Jesus Christ I clearly see his grace and his mercy accept it and then turn and live outside according to His Word. From the begining of time God has set a standard of living and I don't see where we are to stop now.

Start with the right spirit first, then the scriptures will come alive. Ask yourself what OSNAS teachings do to your spirit.

I don't live in fear of losing my salvation. And I could guess that most people don't either. The "teachings" that you speak of don't do any thing to my spirit other than confirm within my spirit. You might think that these teachings try and instill a perception of a way of life that is not attainable. I don't see that. I stand in awe of God. I have a fear of God that brings about wisdom and knowledge. This wisdom and knowledge brings about right decisions. If my flesh sins, then my fear and awe of God and the realization that he has provided the propitiation for my sins brings me to repentance.

If I don't have a respect or fear of God, then I IMO, as I have stated before, have produced a spirit of pride that I no longer need God's grace anymore. The one thing that my friend and I always disagreed on was this very discussion. Can believers lose salvation. Maybe his belief in OSAS has him convinced that he can do what he wants in this life because he now has a loophole. I don't know for sure.

Ultimately it's still up to God. I can see both sides of the coin. I believe that christians can still sin, and go to heaven. God made way that we can go to Him and repent. I just question those that have turned away completely and live a life that is contray to God's Word.

God Bless.

 

[Twig]

We have been over this topic so many times and it gets to the point that people get defensive and then trouble really starts....The idea of OSAS is very much a reality,
Once you have been saved, The only thing that can take it away is if you turn away from him.


Mark 3:29 But, Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven; He is guilty of an eternal sin.


This says it all, Once you have accepted the gift of salvation, It'll never be taken away even if you stray from the path.
This is inherent behaviour of humans, There was only 1 perfect man , and HE DIED TO SAVE ME FROM MY SINS.

I have been to many churches during my time of seeking for what was really my true denomation. During that search I have heard many, many interesting ways of explainning what this means. I would like to hear what you "know" Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven; He is guilty of an eternal sin. to mean.

I believe that once saved always saved however I also believe that you can turn away from your salvation and just walk away and rejoin the ways of the world. I believe it is a conscience decision though. I will have to tell you guys something here.
Since being saved I have taken the Lord's name in vain twice. Not thinking about or meaning My Lord Jesus Christ at the time. Just using the words. I immediately went to My lord and asked for forgiviness.
Having said all of this I will have to save that one church told me that I had indeed LOST my Salvation.
Go with grace, Twig

 

[Follower of Christ too]

I have been to many churches during my time of seeking for what was really my true denomation. During that search I have heard many, many interesting ways of explainning what this means. I would like to hear what you "know" Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven; He is guilty of an eternal sin. to mean.

I believe that once saved always saved however I also believe that you can turn away from your salvation and just walk away and rejoin the ways of the world. I believe it is a conscience decision though. I will have to tell you guys something here.
Since being saved I have taken the Lord's name in vain twice. Not thinking about or meaning My Lord Jesus Christ at the time. Just using the words. I immediately went to My lord and asked for forgiviness.
Having said all of this I will have to save that one church told me that I had indeed LOST my Salvation.
Go with grace, Twig

Make sure you listen to God not people cause sometimes they can tear you down. One of my favorite scriptures is " don't you know that it is the goodness of God that leads you to repentenance"

 

[Andrew]

Look, that's not what we are talking about. If you could, please stick to the discussion at hand. If you want to talk about my signature than start another thread

It is related. But obviously, you do not understand grace.

I see you have already judged your friend. He doesnt seem to be living the way he ought too -- according to your own standards.

You cannot accept the fact that someone like him can still go to heaven, becos you've worked so hard at keeping your salvation that you just can't stand it if someone like your friend can make it too.

Hence, you are against OSAS. A little bit like the pharisees who take offence that Jesus would befriend prostitutes and sinners, instead of them.

The OSNAS doctrine fails this simple test:

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

When a joyful, newly born-again believer starts hearing things like -- by the way, don't be too happy yet, if you don't watch it, you might still end up in hell! -- it is certainly not wisdom from above that brings peace, but it brings fear and robs the new Christian of his new-found joy. IOW it is a doctrine from the pit of hell.

 

[Iddie4him]

I have been to many churches during my time of seeking for what was really my true denomation. During that search I have heard many, many interesting ways of explainning what this means. I would like to hear what you "know" Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven; He is guilty of an eternal sin. to mean.

I believe that once saved always saved however I also believe that you can turn away from your salvation and just walk away and rejoin the ways of the world. I believe it is a conscience decision though. I will have to tell you guys something here.
Since being saved I have taken the Lord's name in vain twice. Not thinking about or meaning My Lord Jesus Christ at the time. Just using the words. I immediately went to My lord and asked for forgiviness.
Having said all of this I will have to save that one church told me that I had indeed LOST my Salvation.
Go with grace, Twig

Here is something else for you to digest.
Here Peter denies Christ as He prophsied, This is what you asked for, Blasphemy.
Matthew 26:69-75
69: Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
70: But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
71: And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
72: And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
73: And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
74: Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.
75: And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
But, If a person comes back with a true repentent heart, He will be added to the number. And his Salvation is saved.

 

[look]

Well, again as always, these types of discussions concerning OSAS turns into a closed-loop, similar to a wheel.

We are not having a discussion, rather we refuse to even consider what the other side has to say. All of our minds are already made up and therefore we purposely make ourselves blind to the points of the other side.

We are so arrogant that we refuse to consider to ask the Holy Spirit whether it is so.

I'm talking to both sides here...

In my judgement, the evading of questions and good points is nothing more than the mindset of "If I don't look at it, maybe it will go away..."

I am going to do a new post concerning an episode in Kenneth Hagin's life. This will serve a two-fold purpose. In it, you will learn how a Christian can deny Jesus Christ, but not only that, you will see how demons are involved in the process. This will be taken from his book titled THE TRIUMPHANT CHURCH, I hope you will see what I believe to fit the scriptures perfectly.

As an afterthought, consider this, if a Christian can’t lose their salvation, then how could the devil tempt us to sin? And why would he, if your salvation can’t be lost? Concerning us, the devil would be out of a job, wouldn’t he?

 

[Andrew]

I am going to do a new post concerning an episode in Kenneth Hagin's life. This will serve a two-fold purpose. In it, you will learn how a Christian can deny Jesus Christ, but not only that, you will see how demons are involved in the process. This will be taken from his book titled THE TRIUMPHANT CHURCH, I hope you will see what I believe to fit the scriptures perfectly.

I have read about that in his book I Believe in Visions. It was one of his visions or encounter with Jesus where Jesus taught him about how a Spirit-filled believer (a woman in particular in the story) could loose his salvation.

We are so arrogant that we refuse to consider to ask the Holy Spirit whether it is so.

That was my point. The Holy Spirit bears witness with what we read or hear. And I'm saying that the witness was very negative when I read that portion. IOW, it failed the simple test:

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

After I read that portion, joy was robbed, peace was lost and fear crept in.

As much as I respect Bro Hagin and have devoured many of his books (The Triumphant Church is also excellent!) I disagree here with his teaching that salvation can be lost. It should also be noted that in this teaching, he makes it clear that only Spirit-filled believers who have experienced the power of the Spirit, can loose their salvation, not baby or the 'average' Christian. So yes, I do know what he taught.