Once saved; always saved?

[hal]

Hangin our hat on "once save, always saved" at best is risky, if not fatal.

 

[Iddie4him]

Hangin our hat on "once save, always saved" at best is risky, if not fatal.

What is risky, if not possibly fatal, is not accepting Christ and taking advantage of the free gifts that he is offering.

 

[blessed2]

If a Christian can lose his salvation and end up in hell, it just proves that Satan can seperate us from the love of God. Think about that.

No it doesn't. It say's that God is faithful although we have free will and we can choose to turn from Him and back to the world and sinful ways.
Once saved always saved sounds like a free license to sin all you want and still get to heaven.

 

[Andrew]

Hangin our hat on "once save, always saved" at best is risky, if not fatal.

The opposite is true.

Question: Do circus performers perform better with a safety net below or without a safety net below? Which situation brings peace, reassurance, which allows you to get up and carry on should you fall?


http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/eternalsecurity.html

 

[Iddie4him]

No it doesn't. It say's that God is faithful although we have free will and we can choose to turn from Him and back to the world and sinful ways.
Once saved always saved sounds like a free license to sin all you want and still get to heaven.

blessed, you are misinformed bigtime, OSAS means that you can still go to heaven, even if you sin....
It is our inherent nature to sin, we are afterall ONLY HUMAN.

Andrew, Nice Post Bro...Our reassurance is in Christ himself, He said that we would have treasures in heaven if we just follow him.

 

[Andrew]

Once saved always saved sounds like a free license to sin all you want and still get to heaven.

Revelation: Licence or no licence, people still sin. R u telling me there are no OSNAS Christians who still sin and sin big time? OR that OSNAS Christians sin less?

The Bible tells us that it is the GRACE of God that leads to repentance, that changes from inside out. So I believe OSAS Christians who are counting on the grace and forgiveness of God, instead of their performance, are the ones being transformed.

No it doesn't. It say's that God is faithful although we have free will and we can choose to turn from Him and back to the world and sinful ways.

You seem to have left out Jesus (he started it and will finish it the Bible says). You seem to have left out the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. This is a very inward looking statement. Worship of the will, Paul calls it.

 

[He put me back together]

<sigh> lots of philosophies here and there, but no one is refuting the fact that 2 Pet plainly, obviously, and blatantly states that there are those who ESCAPED the pollutions of the world by Christ, and were again entangled therein and OVERCOME, and that the end is worse than the beginning. We can philosophy about what the Scriptures SHOULD say all the day long, but doing so will never change what they DO say.

 

[hal]

I did a search on "shall be saved"
and found 14 references.
Hear is one:
Matthew 24:13-14
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV
My understand is that "shall be" means future.

 

[Anthony]

What about Judas for one? Who knows....

Judas didn't make it

JN 17:11-12
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[look]

Hmm, I would think that even after we choose Jesus, we can unchoose Him. What if someone turns away from Him, after being used by God and having operated in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?


Demas was a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul (Col. 4:14; Philemon 24). Together they worked, enduring various troubles and persecution, to extend the kingdom of God. This speaks highly of Demas at that point in time, for Paul was very selective and careful with whom he labored for the Lord. This is apparent since he rejected John (also called Mark) for his past unfaithfulness (Acts 15:37-41).

However, in Paul’s last letter before his own martyrdom, he informed Timothy of the following change in Demas;

For Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica (2 Tim. 4:10, NIV).

The Wuest expanded translation reads:
Demas let me down, having set a high value upon this present age and thus has come to love it.

This translation clearly states that at the time of Demas’ departure from Paul:

(1) He loved this world which caused him to desert Paul. [The Greek shows what Demas came to love is that of which Satan is god (2 Cor. 4:4)!]

(2) He didn’t love the world like this earlier in his Christian life. In other words, his heart condition was different at the time of Paul’s last letter. Apparently, Demas did not guard his heart (Prov. 4:23). Somehow he got deceived which naturally affected his behavior.

Remembering all this about Demas, let Scripture speak to you more extensively about him:

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him (1 Jn. 2:15, NIV).

The seriousness of not loving the Father is evident from Jam. 1:12; 2:5 and Jn. 5:42. In other words, this reflects that one is not saved when he doesn’t love the Father. Demas degenerated to this state.

Eph. 2:1,2 goes on to say:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient (NIV).

The word translated ways (aion) is the same word found in 2 Tim. 4:10, which is also what Demas came to love. The word translated world (kosmos) is the same word found in 1 Jn. 2:15!

Jam. 4:4 supplements all this by adding:
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NIV).

James was, in part, writing to a group of spiritual adulterers. (Compare this to Jer. 3:20 and Ezek. 6:9.) Notice how James declares that one can become an enemy of God [again].

Other translations similarly say:

Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God (NRSV).

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God (NASB).

One is either saved or unsaved; with Jesus or against him; a child of God or an enemy of God. There is no other spiritual condition in which to be. Jam. 4:4, therefore, means such go from enemy of God to child of God to enemy of God again!

Heb. 10:27 adds to this by saying:
... raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (NIV).

So if one becomes an enemy of God from his former spiritual condition of being saved, then he can’t be saved any more and raging fire is awaiting him, unless he repents.

James cites in condensed form what happened to Demas, that is, a Christian can come to love the world and show himself no longer saved. Also, this is the answer for those who say, based on the Old Testament, that “Christ is married to the backslider,” but fail to say:

I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries (Jer. 3:8, NIV)

 

[Andrew]

sigh> lots of philosophies here and there, but no one is refuting the fact that 2 Pet plainly, obviously, and blatantly states that there are those who ESCAPED the pollutions of the world by Christ, and were again entangled therein and OVERCOME, and that the end is worse than the beginning. We can philosophy about what the Scriptures SHOULD say all the day long, but doing so will never change what they DO say.

If one starts with the wrong spirit/ or on the wrong footing, he can pretty much take any verse to support what he wants to believe. You must judge from the annointing within.

IOW, if you believe OSNAS, and you have that spirit, then you will simply interpret those verses to support what you believe. and vice versa.

 

[look]

If you went out and started doing drugs, while engaging in sexual perversion, would you make it in the rapture if Jesus called us up?

 

[Andrew]

Look,

Firstly, that is a hypothetical question which is not very realistic. Wld you, a true-blue born-again person do that? The question is, CAN a true-blue, born-again believer do that?

But to answer your question, sinning does not cause one to loose salvation, anymore than doing righteous works causes one to gain salvation. So, yes, you will still go up in the rapture, why? becos of the Blood.

Prostitution and drugs are not the 'big' sins. Unbelief, worry, fear head the list. So which Christian does not doubt and fear from time to time?

 

[He put me back together]

Look,

Firstly, that is a hypothetical question which is not very realistic. Wld you, a true-blue born-again person do that? The question is, CAN a true-blue, born-again believer do that?

But to answer your question, sinning does not cause one to loose salvation, anymore than doing righteous works causes one to gain salvation. So, yes, you will still go up in the rapture, why? becos of the Blood.

Prostitution and drugs are not the 'big' sins. Unbelief, worry, fear head the list. So which Christian does not doubt and fear from time to time?

If a true-blue born-again believer wouldn't do that, how can you say that they would do any sin? If unbelief, doubt, and worry are worse, wouldn't a true-blue born-again believer be more likely to commit adultery, drugs, and everything else?

 

[He put me back together]

If one starts with the wrong spirit/ or on the wrong footing, he can pretty much take any verse to support what he wants to believe. You must judge from the annointing within.

IOW, if you believe OSNAS, and you have that spirit, then you will simply interpret those verses to support what you believe. and vice versa.

Yes, andrew, this is unfortunately the case for all or most of us--we make the scriptures say what we believe, rather than the other way around. I was just wondering why there was little Biblical debate here, as the Biblical debate is the core of the issue in this particular conversation. Both answers cannot be right; the Scriptures say what they mean.

 

[Ben_Hur]

If a true-blue born-again believer wouldn't do that, how can you say that they would do any sin? If unbelief, doubt, and worry are worse, wouldn't a true-blue born-again believer be more likely to commit adultery, drugs, and everything else?

I think those sins mentioned are the ones that drive you to unbelief, doubt, and worry... How can one be involved in them and not start doubting and worrying?

 

[RevKidd]

Look,

Firstly, that is a hypothetical question which is not very realistic. Wld you, a true-blue born-again person do that? The question is, CAN a true-blue, born-again believer do that?

Sure they can. One of my best friends in highschool and after was what I would consider a "true-blue" believer, and was for most of his life. He went on mission trips, went to the Holy Lands. He is someone that I considered to be on fire. He believed. Until he met this girl. She is very beautiful and nice. They dated for a while and then she stopped it. After that it was all down hill from their. IMO, he almost lost his mind when it came to women. They became an obsession to him. Having to have a girlfriend became the #1 one thing. I saw him about a year and half ago and he has just involved himself with things that I never thought that he would have done. Women, drinkin, I think that some mary jo anna use was going on. I was so uncomfortable. He wasn't my friend anymore. Several years ago we would sit around and talk about missions and ministry work and doing thing for God. Now it seems he is more intrested in doing girls....

Is he still saved. Ultimately it is up to God. But I will tell you this. I would not want to be in his shoes if God required my soul.

Really, if you think about it. I don't think he is saved anymore. How can you live that life and claim to be a child of God.

Some people might say, "Well he was never saved to begin with". I say hogwash. Yes he was.

I still pray for him. That one day he will come back to God.

But to answer your question, sinning does not cause one to loose salvation, anymore than doing righteous works causes one to gain salvation. So, yes, you will still go up in the rapture, why? becos of the Blood.

Prostitution and drugs are not the 'big' sins. Unbelief, worry, fear head the list. So which Christian does not doubt and fear from time to time?

I agree with that. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Fortunately we have the blood of Christ and his sacrifice to atone for our sins.

The big question is can someone lose salvation. Meaning If I were today to turn my back on Christ and live a sinful, missing the mark, life, will I go to Heaven? The fact is Christians fall off the path. My friend has, and I fear the worse.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If you went out and started doing drugs, while engaging in sexual perversion, would you make it in the rapture if Jesus called us up?

Hey blessed one! Praise God for you!

Let's use an example that is right out of the word of God.
What if this same person would have sex with his father's wife? :o
That would be pretty preverted...no?

What does the word say about his soul?
Look, look :

1Co 5:1-5
1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Was this man still saved?
Some clues:
"...there is fornication among you..."
Paul said he was still among them.
"....might be taken away from among you..."
Paul specifically says that he has not yet been taken away from among them.
"...that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus..."
This is what would happen. His body would be destroyed so that his spirit would be saved. But the point is: at this point, he is still saved.

Sin is horrible, and the price of this man's lust was to be destruction of his flesh. Happily in the 2nd Letter to the Corinthians, repentance came and judgment was averted.
There are numerous other scriptures in the NT that tell exactly what happens to believers when they sin. Not all sins condemn the soul, and not all punishment is hell. Some occurs in this life, and is designed to save the one who is jeopardizing their eternal life. This is sin "not unto (spiritual) death". Only sin after the similitude of Adam's sin results in spiritual death.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

Hey blessed one! Praise God for you!

Let's use an example that is right out of the word of God.
What if this same person would have sex with his father's wife? :o
That would be pretty preverted...no?

What does the word say about his soul?
Look, look :

1Co 5:1-5
1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Was this man still saved?
Some clues:
"...there is fornication among you..."
Paul said he was still among them.
"....might be taken away from among you..."
Paul specifically says that he has not yet been taken away from among them.
"...that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus..."
This is what would happen. His body would be destroyed so that his spirit would be saved. But the point is: at this point, he is still saved.

Sin is horrible, and the price of this man's lust was to be destruction of his flesh. Happily in the 2nd Letter to the Corinthians, repentance came and judgment was averted.
There are numerous other scriptures in the NT that tell exactly what happens to believers when they sin. Not all sins condemn the soul, and not all punishment is hell. Some occurs in this life, and is designed to save the one who is jeopardizing their eternal life. This is sin "not unto (spiritual) death". Only sin after the similitude of Adam's sin results in spiritual death.

Often, I have thought of this scripture. I got to say I haven't yet decided on OSAS. I feel if a person should fall away our main concern should be how to get them back on track...It would seem to me if a person could fall away it would be by choice and as for me I can't see how anyone could deny Him if they really knew He existed! This is hard for me to understand.

 

[Andrew]

If a true-blue born-again believer wouldn't do that, how can you say that they would do any sin? If unbelief, doubt, and worry are worse, wouldn't a true-blue born-again believer be more likely to commit adultery, drugs, and everything else?

I think you missed the point of the post. The Bible clearly says that the believer cannot go on living in sin. Either we believe what God says in his Word or we believe man's opinion formed out of personal experiences. I have chosen the former.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

So why hypothetical examples that talk about such and such a Christian living in a life of sin etc still crops up in this subject amuses me.

And why aren't bigger sins like doubting God and being fearful used in these hypothetical examples? That would just cover about every Christian, wldn't it, including those who are OSNAS? In Revelation, it is the fearful and unbelieving who lead the way and enter the lake of fire first.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Abraham committed adultery. David, murder and adultery. Rehab was a prostitute yet she and her extended family got saved and she's listed in the geneology of Jesus. These people made it -- becos of faith.