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Smidlee

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The real question does God lose sheep? does the Great Shephard lose sheep and would he be great if he did? I agree with Mcgee that all predestination means is God doesn't lose sheep. God starts out with a 100 sheep, he will end up with 100 sheep. If one run away he will go after that sheep and even break his legs to keep him in the fold if he has to. For God disciplines his children and if he doesn't then this means he doesn't claim you.
 
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carmi

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homewardbound said:
But what if for some unforeseen reason you decide a year from now that Christianity isn't your cup of tea, and reject the gospel and go off to live a life of sin.
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I can like a cup of tea and still spill it ... what I mean is: I can embrace Christianity, hold on to it and still I can't look back on a day where I did not commit any sin.

[BIBLE]1 John 1:8[/BIBLE]
 
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P_G

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MOD HAT ON

I have cleaned up this thread
If you are not a Baptist or an Anabaptist you MAY NOT DEBATE HERE!

Please B/A members do not engage people who are not supposed to be debating here in a debate it makes for a lot of work and your posts get trashed.

Thanks
Shalom

PG
 
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JPPT1974

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We are saved in God through Jesus Christ by dying on the cross, arising from the dead, and ascending into heaven. And that He will come back on the earth and get us all from God's right-hand throne. If we accept Him as our Lord & Savior into our hearts and lives.
 
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MeekOne

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For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

In Christ all be made alive!
 
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Athanasian Creed

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Calvinism teaches that ONLY the elect (those whom God has predestined and preordained to eternal life) can respond to God's call by His grace. All others, whom God has reprobated and predestined to eternal torment do not. According to Calvinism, Christ did not die for all men but only for the elect. It is called 'Limited Atonement' and one of the 5 tenets of Calvinism, eg. TULIP.

Calvinists believe that one who is saved will endure to the end and if they 'backslide' will return again to the fold. However, the Apostle Paul makes mention of men who have made "shipwreck of their faith" and have become apostate -

1 Timothy 1:19-20 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

To the true believer OSAS is a wonderful promise - NOTHING can seperate us from the love of God IF we continue to abide in Christ. However, nowhere does it say that WE ourselves cannot choose of our own free will to take ourselves out of the will of God and give up in the race. There are "ifs" attached to salvation as i mentioned in my previous post - "IF you love me, keep My commandments"; "IF a man love Me, he will keep My words", "IF a man abide NOT in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered..."(if one was, at a point in time, a branch, that means he abided in Christ and belonged to Him) All of these if are a decision, a choice, an act of the will.


Ray
 
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TexasMike

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One major flaw in your philosophy Ray . How can you lose what you didnt earn in the 1st place? You didnt deserve salvation the 1st time. Grace by definition is UNMERITED favor. Salvation comes by accepting a free gift, not by earning it. The only one to ever EARN heaven was Jesus Christ by fulfilling the law. No 100% human being has ever fulfilled the law.

However, nowhere does it say that WE ourselves cannot choose of our own free will to take ourselves out of the will of God and give up in the race.
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I hate to appear to be hung up on 1 scripture passage but it is VERY powerful and decisive.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
 
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brotherjim

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This post is addressed to whomever has been following along with this thread, read my posts and would’ve wanted me to address the post of another who quoted from the above passage in defense of their OSAS position. I do not know how I missed their post: it totally passed my attention at the time. It was only after I returned to this thread yesterday to copy and paste from 2 of my prior posts here, for use on another forum, when I noticed the post immediately following mine, Posts #27-28, their’s ref. 1 Cor. 3, and so as soon as I was able I addressed it off-line and will copy & paste. I thank God I caught the oversight.

I almost never get involved in OSAS vs. CS (Cond. Sec.), and in fact it has been so long since I last did so that I was even sure I would never post on one again. Just like discussing charismatic doctrine on non-charismatic or mixed forums, these types of topics are too divisive, cause many to stumble through anger and bitterness and strife, and really, in regards to OSAS vs. CS, there is little-to-no need these things be addressed, by me at least and outside of my own fellowship. Both sides have missed the true qualifications for eternal Life as are given in God’s Holy Word, the only accepted Standard. So it is more important I---and you too---be "all things to all men," with "the hope [at least] some might be saved" (sorry that that comes across condescendingly, I couldn’t think of any other way to put it), and get back to the basics---"the sincere milk of the Word"---of what qualifies someone to inherit eternal Life (and not just how someone gets to await Judgment Day in Paradise instead of hell, but rather where they will spend eternity after that Day).

The above ref. passage from 1 Cor. 3 is often used by OSAS believers, and may even be the most often used in defense of their belief, and yet it is among those least applicable. If someone were able to consider it in its full context and from a purely objective perspective---impossible to do apart from a specific act of Grace---they would recognize that it does not at all confront the issue of eternal Life. Paul is not addressing the qualifications for eternal Life, but is speaking of those who already qualified. He is addressing those such as Apollos (v’s. 4--6) who are building upon his apostolic foundation. The passage is purely about the additional rewards, or lack thereof, that will be given to those who inherit eternal Life. These rewards, as many know, will most likely determine what position someone will be given in the theocracy of the eternal, New Jerusalem, Age.

Btw, key words in both the above Scripture and my dialogue are "apostolic" and "foundation." It is assumed by Paul that his words are to be understood to apply only to those who have at their core, a true apostolic foundation. Already in Paul’s day the apostles were outnumbered 12/13 to 10,000 ("though you have 10,000 instructors in Christ"). The vast majority did not personally recognize the authority of the apostles and their doctrine, instead choosing to themselves the 10,000 who held to a lesser, more palatable and pedestrian and patronizing, watered-down version (by severe implication of the Word). So of course since these masses did not have an apostolic foundation---

Regardless, any doctrine regarding eternal Life is not, if it is to be true, reached by referencing this passage or that passage, but is based upon all applicable Scriptures being assembled, all traits of God and general Kingdom principles being applied, etc., then all of that compared against whatever doctrine was believed revealed by God to the church. If the "theorized" doctrine was indeed from God and not from the hearts and minds of self-justifying men, that doctrine will align perfectly with all Scriptures speaking of eternal Life, and all attributes of God, and all principles of the Kingdom, etc., and all without having to jam square pegs into round holes.

There is only one doctrine which so aligns itself, and it is neither OSAS nor CS. It is thus: eternal Life is promised by God only to those who have allowed Him, by Grace and (S)spirit only, by Grace and (S)spirit only (sic), to perfect them in His Love (not to be confused with sinfulness; it is the Love of God working through them which is perfect, for that Love itself "will cover the multitude of sins"---avail., of course, only through the Blood of Jesus). Period; there’s only one Gospel.

Whether or not a person lives long enough to be perfected in God’s Love, is of course in God’s hands, and will determine whether they will have enough time to bring forth Fruit of "gold, silver and precious stones," and also is of course a factor in whether that Fruit will be 30-, 60- or a 100-fold. Our responsibility as those once born-again and started in Grace, is to along the Way not harden our heart against God’s process of perfecting us in His Love---which practically all in this post-modern church have fallen prey to, them already being "beguiled" (KJV; 2 Cor 11) by the same watered-down Gospel which appeared already in the first century. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge," and the lack of apostolic foundations in church doctrine has resulted in a pandemic spiritual famine ("half" the church has gone the way of liberalism, trampling on Grace as they consider it a common-to-be -used thing [Heb. 10:26—29; "I’m not perfect, just forgiven" is their bumper sticker]; half the church has gone the way of the Galatians, being started by the Spirit but then succumbing to self-righteous works of flesh, believing and claiming such are what James 2 has called for). Truly, truly, I’m sorrowed to say.

While of course not the only ones, the following Scriptures are applicable to the only true, apostolic, unadulterated Gospel of Christ Jesus:

1 John 2:[3]And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments. [4] He that saith, "I know Him," and keepeth not His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

Luke 10:[25]And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and [tested Jesus], saying, "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ [26] [Jesus] said unto him, ‘What is written in the Law? how readest thou?" [27] And [the lawyer] answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." [28] And [Jesus] said unto him, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

1 John 4:[16]And we have known and believed the Love that God hath to us. God is Love; and he that dwelleth in Love dwelleth in God, and God in him. [17] Herein is our Love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world [IF indeed we are]. [18] There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in Love.

Rev. 22:[14]Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the Gates into the [Holy] City [the yet-to-come New Jerusalem, not the present-day Paradise]. [CONVERSELY---]

Ephes. 2:[8]For by Grace [ONLY] are ye saved through Faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the Gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jas. 2:[17]Thus also Faith by itself, if it does not have works [of the Spirit; of Grace], is dead.
But of course, those wanting to remain rebellious, and therefore lawless, who agapao love their remaining heart idols more than the unadulterated Truth of God and the Light that Truth seeks to shine upon the still-darkened hearts of the once born-again Christian, will have their opinions and conjectures and humanistic insistences which will differ from what is claimed Truth above (nothing personal implied by me).

The Good News, however: God offers more Grace, and second and third chances, even if what is needed is a Grace of repentance by those finding themselves without the desire to repent: just ask Him, in Jesus’ name, and believe, nothing wavering.

"Today, if you will hear His Voice, harden not your hearts. . . ."

"Grace and Peace be multiplied onto you," those marvelous "manifold Graces of God," brother jim

 
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Jimmy West

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Salvation can be lost, but not easily. A person would have to live a sinful lifestyle in order to loose their salvation. That doesn't mean backsliding. What it means is living a type of life where sin, or sinning is a purpose or major part of that persons life. A person can murder and still be saved. A serial killer who has made murder a lifestyle will not. A person could rape and still be saved. A serial rapist, who lives to rape would not. A person could have a homosexual affair and still be saved. A person who lives a homosexual lifestyle exclusively will not.

When a person willingly sins continually, that person is considered to have voluntarily given up their salvation.
 
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TexasMike

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Jimmy. Show me any scritupture that supports that theory! Look, when God saves a person you dont reach out and grab hold of God you submit to HIS will and allow HIM to grab hold of you. You dont enter his heart HE enters YOUR heart. You arent holding HIM, HE is holding on to you!!!

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Works are a fruit of your salvation not the basis for it.

Show me a saved person that lives a homosexual lifestyle and I will show you a very unhappy saved person that is being punished in his heart by God. I will also submit to you that it is VERY unlikely that a person who lives a homosexual or murderous or hedonistic lifestyle was ever saved at all. Im not saying its impossible, but I would bet that its very VERY rare. IF you totally reject Christ, you were never saved in the 1st place.

The Bible makes a BEAUTIFUL example of this when talking about a shepherd that has a lamb that continually runs away and so the shepherd breaks his leg and then carries the lamb with him as the flock moves until the lamb learns to stay with the flock. The lamb is still with the shepherd, he just takes the lambs freedom so that he is dependant on the shepherd. I can relate to this because I KNOW I am saved and I KNOW how God has dealt with me when I blew him off and tried to go off and do what I wanted. There was not one minute that I didnt feel conviction and Gods calling to my heart when I was being willfully disobedient. EVERY SINGLE TIME the call gets stronger and life gets harder until God finally drops the hammer on me and I cannot take the pressure anymore, I turn, repent and get right and the pressure is IMMEDIATELY relieved. I may have to live with the outcome of the mistakes in my life until I get things strightened out but I get my JOY back because I know that in spite of my circumstances I am walking in Gods will.

Im not speaking of opinion I am speaking this as PERSONAL experience, unrefutable by any interpretation of what the Bible says. The Bible is not conflicting and it is not contradictory. Romans 1 says we will KNOW the word because the word is written on our hearts so that we are without excuse. I know what I see in the Word and I also know how God deals with me personally. I have walked away from God willfully (not in my behoaviour, but in my heart by my determination to do what I want even though I know its not what God wants) and he has convicted me every minute every time I did it until I came back into his will.

Dont tell me I was lost, I was not lost, God was there all the time I could feel HIM I was just trying to ignore HIM and he flat wouldnt let me. He brings me back EVERY single time. My fear is that one day if I dont come back and I am no longer bear fruit, he is going to cut me down like the tree that bears no fruit.

Hebrews 12:5 "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." F56 7 If F57 you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed
 
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brotherjim

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. . . Works are a fruit of your salvation not the basis for it. . . .
Click to expand...
Whoever,

While I personally would not have stated it the way I quote another above:

Truly, the written Holy Word gives the Christian several litmus tests which can---and should be---applied to their walk, with the Holy Ghost bearing witness through Him revealing the Truth regarding that walk (the heart is desperately wicked and SELF-deceiving; Jer. 17:3).

There is more than one litmus test, because more than one is needed. For example, the test of James 2, that of whether or not good works are forthcoming in the life of someone claiming to be, or still be, a Christian, is insufficient by itself. Many people in this world, including self-righteous Christians and Buddhists and Muslims and whatever, produce good works. No doubt there are Satanists somewhere who believe in doing good works.

So the Word gives us the additional litmus tests of such Standards as are clearly, without any ambiguity, given in the passages of 1 John 2:3-5; Luke 10:25-28; 1 John 4:16-18; Rev. 22:14; etc (all Scriptures which I spelled out a page or two back in one of my prior posts). God has given the church clear warning, that if an alleged Christian does not find, as a spectator of sorts (i.e., ENTIRELY by Grace and Spirit), that they are perfected in God's Love (not to be confused with sinLESSness, "most likely" an impossibility, even though that is thecommanded goal), then they have every reason to doubt that they remain in Christ and His Grace, them rather falling under the heading of those referred to in Hebrews 10:26-29. Truly, truly, sorrowed to say.

[Edit+: I referenced Eph. 2:8-9 in my prior post, because also needing to be applied is that foundational, overall New Covenant Kingdom principle that distinguishes the New Cov. from the Old; it stating that God requires our good works be in direct obedience to that which is specifically dictated by His Spirit, NOT by following through works of flesh the dead letter of the Law (such was the errror and "foolish[ness]" of, at least, the churches of Galatia).]

"Peace and GRACE BE MULTIPLIED onto you" (transp.), brother jim
 
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JPPT1974

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You took the words out of my mouth. I saw before serial murderer Ted Bundy went to the chair that he gave an interview with Dr James Dobson that he accepted the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. He & Dobson read the bible and prayed a few days before his execution. I hope and pray that Ted did accept Christ as Savior & Lord. I am using Bundy, though evil as he was the worst serial killer in US history, as an example btw.
 
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Athanasian Creed

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I remember seeing that on 20/20 or Primetime sometime last year. They also interviewed his parents (who are Christians BTW) and they confirmed he had repented of his sins and asked forgiveness. He had received some literature from one of the Creation Science ministries (i believe Creation Research) which lead him to the Lord !

Great is the mercy of the Lord. His sacrifice on the Cross was so great and all-encompassing that even such a one as Bundy, who some would consider beyond saving, can be washed clean by His blood !!


Ray


P.S. Faye (?) Tucker also accepted Christ before she was put to death for murder a few years ago !
 
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MeekOne

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eldermike

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TexasMike said:
What scriptural basis can you give to biblically support this??? Show me one scripture..
Click to expand...

I have debated this issue for some time. I totally agree, there is not a single scriptural basis for giving back ones salvation.
What they tend to do is define salvation as fellowship with Christ. What they miss is a very basic thing. If sin can defeat us then Christ failed and we are all lost.
Simply put; If salvation is the result of anything I did, or can do, there is no salvation, there is no cross, there is no reason to follow Christ, we might as well take the lead.
 
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