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Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

ToBeLoved

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Christ, the guarantee'or of the New Covenant

Christ sends the Holy Spirit to His Children

John 14:16-18
16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

John 16:7-8

7 But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

Romans 8:26

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27 And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

21 Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.


2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Romans 8:15-16

15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ
 
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I disagree.

While a believer can have an assurance of their salvation, one cannot be once saved always saved if salvation is conditional and they could potentially lose their salvation. Paul said work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Also, if a person who believes in OSAS acts like they could lose their salvation but they really do not believe they can lose their salvation, then they are going to eventually revert back to reality at some point. They are going to one day face a person who is desperate to hear the OSAS message and they will cave in and give it to them and tell them that they are secure in Jesus. But if our OSAS friend (who believes in living holy) does not get a chance to tell their new OSAS seeker about how they must live holy, then they are going to think they have a license to sin (Whether our OSAS friend here wants that to happen or not).


...
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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You misread my comment. I said even if the author of the comment believed in once saved always saved he should strive to live right rather then abuse this eternal grace insurance policy . The author of the comment and I myself don't believe in that. I was just saying if innsome hypothetical we did. I do however stand by the second half of my comment. Also when I say whole life inmean after receiving salvation.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Now I would like to look at what happens or what is the very short process of salvation (if God wasn't so quick, like a millisecond!)

Justification -

Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Justification

Justification is the declaring of a person to be just or righteous. It is a legal term signifying acquittal, a fact that makes it unpalatable to many in our day. We tend to distrust legalism and thus we dismiss anything that savors of a legalistic approach. We should be clear that our hesitation was not shared by the biblical writers. In their day it was axiomatic that a wealthy and important citizen would not be treated in a law court in the same way as an insignificant person. Indeed this was sometimes written into the statutes and, for example, in the ancient Code of Hammurabi it is laid down that if a citizen knocked out the tooth of another citizen his own tooth should be knocked out. But if the victim was a vassal it sufficed to pay a small fine. Nobody expected strict justice in human tribunals but the biblical writers were sure that God is a God of justice.Throughout the Bible justice is a category of fundamental importance.

Romans 5:1-2
1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


Let us remember the previous posts, Jesus purchased us, for a price. Notice above that Justification used in the Bible is a legal term. Jesus legally and through a cost, purchased legally each one of His Children from spiritual death, into spiritual life.

When we changed 'masters' we officially changed ownership from children of satan and sin, to Children of God and righteousness. To make each of us righteous, Christ Justifies us (Christ declares us righteous, by GIVING US His righteousness). So we become righteous not by anything we did, but because of who our master is that bought us for a price.

The New Covenant is considered a legal covenant between us and God and God cannot break His Covenant and since He purchased us for a price, we are His and cannot break the Covenant either.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Okay. Let's track that out. Would Abraham have been counted righteous if he'd told God thanks but no thanks, he was staying in the city of Ur?
 
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thecolorsblend

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You signature is the most Non scriptural load of lies I've ever seen and denies the one (1) ONE mediator between mankind and God.
Maybe you should start a separate thread to critique my sig. I'm not sure if this is the right thread for that sort of discussion.
 
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Aldebaran

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There's a lot to unpack with your posts. Too much, really. But a couple of points stood out.

And what did Abraham do, friend? He believed and he obeyed.

That's not exactly what Romans 4:3 says though. It simply says: "For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What did Abraham believe? The prior verses (the original text from Genesis chapter 15) tell us:

3And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
 
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Yes, this is saying that the Laws have changed from one covenant to the next. There are New Commands (i.e. a New Law) according to the New Covenant. There is nothing here saying that you are "once saved alway saved."


Again, this does not prove OSAS. This is merely saying that Jesus was different than the Levitical priesthood by the fact that Jesus is eternal and his priesthood is eternal vs. the Levitical priesthood being after succession and temporal.
ToBeLoved said:
18 So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

What was the former commandment(s) that was set aside?
The Law of Moses. The Old Testament Laws.

Again, nothing here about OSAS.


It says in other translations that Jesus guarantees a better covenant. It does not say Jesus is the guarantee in how a person cannot fall away from Him within the New Covenant. So again, no OSAS is being taught here.


Verse 25 is in context to Hebrews 10:4 that says,

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4). Meaning Jesus saves completely or to the uttermost in relation to how the OT Saint no longer has to keep revisiting the same sins year after year anymore. Once a person comes to Jesus, their PAST sins will forever be forgiven and they do not need to be revisited like in the Old Testament.

Verse 26 is saying that Jesus forever lives to intercede for his saints. This does not mean that there will be sin in the final New Earth. We learn in Revelation that there will be no more death, disease, pain, suffering, etc.

Verse 26 is saying that Jesus forever lives to intercede for all their past sin that He takes care of prior to the Judgment. For there will only be one Judgment (which is in two parts or stages; One for believers and one for unbelievers). Anyways, we learn about how Christ intercedes for us in 1 John 2:1-2 and 1 John 1:9. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. 1 John 1:7 would also be in context to this, as well. Meaning, we not only have to confess our sins, but we have to do so with the intention of forsaking them. For if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Do you believe you have to walk in the light to get the blood of Jesus?



Again, don't see anything here that supports OSAS.


ToBeLoved said:
Now my second point is that we officially change ownership when we are saved in the New Covenant.


You are making an assumption that being bought and paid for equates with OSAS. It simply does not say that. Scripture also says that names can be blotted out of the book of life. Obviously those whose names were once in the book of life were bought and paid for by Jesus. The question then remains is: What caused their names to be blotted out? Well, I would have to say it was their choice to sin and turn away from God.

ToBeLoved said:

Actually, this verse disproves OSAS and it does not prove it. It is saying that if you cannot serve both God and sin.


...
 
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thecolorsblend

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Why does the 'you can loose your salvation crowd always grab out the most extreme example that would not be 1/5000 th of the population and then stake their cause on that.
Probably because extreme examples such as mine are the ones which tend to be the most black and white scenarios imaginable for establishing a paradigm of morality.

As if God is making His covenant with us looking at the 1 in 5000 th person who would have some deep, deep seeded issues if not gross mental illness.
Don't people with "deep, deep seeded issues" also need a Savior?

With respect, I am trying to understand your point in this. Can you clarify on it for me please? I ask because one possible interpretation of your comment is God will only accept morally virtuous people for being saved.

But the naysayer's grab the most ridiculous examples making God out to be a fool in the process when God can only be what God is. And a fool is not something He can be.
On the contrary, I believe God is perfect in His wisdom and knowledge. He would therefore set out logical parameters by which people can be saved. I therefore find it a bit difficult to imagine that He would institute a system along the lines of Eternal Security/OSAS.

They never start a "valid" conversation to begin with, they started an "extreme" example that they want us to defend our position over.
History is replete with people doing extreme things. Take Stalin, for example. He was a Georgian Orthodox Christian at one point. According to the Eternal Security/OSAS model, he should have gone to Heaven upon his death in spite of being one of the greatest enemies the Christian faith has ever faced in Russia and also in spite of his policies and orders which resulted in the deaths of millions of people. But he did profess the faith at one point so his subsequent actions don't matter, right? Or do they matter?

Then if they feel they are loosing, comes "extreme" example number #2 and so on ...........
You could try answering my hypothetical. That might be more productive to this discussion than attacking me.
 
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"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform." (Romans 4:21).

20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:20-26).


...
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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That's what I pointed out earlier, if you believe you are saved through the cross and justification then there's no way to argue other wise. Have to accept osas becuase it ends with justification.



I'm a holy ghost believer. TBH this is good information but this can still fit in with a non OSAS believer is the problem. Like in the apostolic/pentecostal religion we believe the old stuff didn't work... we agree that it wasn't perfect. The only part I would say I disagree with is that it ends with justification, I believe the next part is adoption which comes with the holy ghost. I'm not saying you have to agree with my beliefs on salvation i'm just showing you how this fits fine with a non OSAS belief.

Also wouldn't the two master thing only support a Non OSAS belief? And this comment I made earlier? That you can maintain salvation as long as you sustain yourself and continue to bear fruits and do follow christ and not choose evil?

"I believe it's a mixture of both because god doesn't force us to stay with him, but if we choose to stay with him then we can remain saved. He says we must choose good or evil. You can be saved your whole life sure, but you you must be consistent in your walk for that to happen. The highway of upright departures from evil they that keepeth their way persevere their soul."


Sure justification is permanent which is why I believe OSAS works with a water baptism (simply washing away sins we are born with thanks to the cross) or accept JESUS belief system. But adoption (for holy ghost believers) is permanent only if we stay christ like and continue to grow every year. Salvation isn't a quick thing we have to work it and develop, but you pointed out you believe this. But yeah I believe in the most belief systems though OSAS is the only thing that really makes sense though.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Christ justifying us, reconciles us back to the Father.

Romans 5:9-11
9 Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10 For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


Because of Jesus Christ giving us His righteousness we have now received reconciliation. Notice that 'we have now received' is in the present tense. That is not something that happens to the Christian later, after death, that they are reconciled back to the Father. It happens immediately after Christ justifies them. And remember that justification is a legal term so it is not something that God takes back because it is permanant.

Romans 5:15-19
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16 Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!



So we can see in these verses that we have been given a gift. The people that believe that salvation can be lost, believe that God takes away the gift from us because of sin, but Notice what God's Word says about the gifts of God.


Romans 11:29

29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.


So so far we can see that we have been bought by Jesus Christ for a price. That the Father has given to His Son Jesus Christ ALL that is in heaven and on earth. That through His shed blood that paid for sin, that He has conquered sin.

Then Christ gives us the gift of salvation by justifying us by giving us His righteousness which reconciles us back to the Father/God.

Romans 5:20-22

20 The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We will continue in a little while with Romans 6
 
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Aldebaran

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Ok. Then what work is it that we perform that is joined to the faith we have in Jesus Christ that would bring life to that faith? Wouldn't that be that we ask him for His forgiveness for our sin, and rely on Him for our continued salvation? I know that's only one work, but so are the examples that you mentioned.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Saying that OSAS ends with Justification is just wrong. Who decided that part of the New Covenant was to justify His Children? It surely was not me, I am just writing out the scripture that Jesus and God put into motion.

God could have chose on Judgement Day to justify us or the day we die, but He did not choose too. That is my point. God did what was part of HIS PLAN.

But, I have several more long posts to make, my position doesn't end with justification, there is much more that proves God has us forever!

I am sharing theologically, what I see and read IN THE BIBLE that has convinced me OSAS is true. God took a specific legal term from the Old Testament and Covenant and used it in the New Covenant because God wanted it to be a legal term, not I. I don't get to choose anything.

I am a servant of God, I make no choices about what God does. God TELLS me what He does.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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So you're suggesting that humans are not like Adam any more. That now humans are controlled by GOd in a sense? THat humans don't make choices when it comes to good or evil??? IF so k i'm just wondering if that's what you're saying here. I could be wrong but this seems like hte only way I can make of a belief in where God does everything without human intervention.


ALso if it doesn't end with justification then what is the next step in your faith. If you're about to present that then nvm don't answer it right now but yeah would like to see that. Curious
 
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ToBeLoved

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No. That is not correct at all.

We still do all the things that we do, but when God looks at our sin record, it is His Son's righteousness and perfection that He see's, not us. Because Christ gives us, through justification, His righteousness.

So you could think of it like Jesus jumps in and said I gave them my righteousness, don't judge them, look at Me. And Jesus is perfect and has made each of us perfect.
 
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Neogaia777

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The only way you can lose your salvation (I'm assuming you mean for heaven) is for your faith, your belief in God/Jesus to become unbelief...

Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail him, cause this was the principle issue, and he knew Satan sought to sift his soul as wheat, to test his faith to the limit... It's OK, while your faith is being tested to go through moments of doubt or even thinking God isn't very good or fair, and even voicing that to or with him, while your faith is under test, as long as you don't lose it completely AND, it does not stay that way permanently...

The enemy takes a risk in getting permission to test your faith, cause, you might succumb to doubts that could potentially crush your faith (which is his, the enemies, hope) but, he also knows it can backfire on him, in that it could refine and strengthen your faith, if you come out on top (which is God's hope and what he knows about it)...

God Bless!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Probably because extreme examples such as mine are the ones which tend to be the most black and white scenarios imaginable for establishing a paradigm of morality.
But we have God's Word. It must be only people who do not trust God's Word to be their paradigm, because God is my paradigm.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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wow... uh wow well


We still do all the things that we do

My question: So salvation doesn't work?


but when God looks at our sin record

My Response: the bible says blessed is a man whose iniquities are forgiven and who's sins are covered though. Shouldn't be a sin record if salvation works (I believe it does). Now if we decide to turn away or backslide that's differnet. IF we choose to turn back on salvation then yeah sure. I believe once we are adopted by christ and we walk in this newness we are able to change. I believe if any man be in christ he is a new creature, and old things pass away and all things become new.



it is His Son's righteousness and perfection that He see's, not us. Because Christ gives us, through justification, His righteousness.

My Question: I guess my question then is are you suggesting there isn't such thing as a sinner and christian? YOu believe he sees sinners as christians? what?





So you could think of it like Jesus jumps in and said I gave them my righteousness, don't judge them, look at Me. And Jesus is perfect and has made each of us perfect.


My response: So you believe in the scriptures that talk about JESUS being a meditator but you take it to a whole new level... you believe in a eternal grace insurance policy, no matter what someone does JESUS covers them.


My question: So are you saying no one goes to hell then? I'm ultimately trying to figure out this position, i've never heard an explanation like this before (why I said wow) so trying to figure out your belief.
 
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Salvation requires that we believe and confess that Jesus Christ the Savior is risen from the dead, and that we keep (obey) His commandments -- all of them. Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ plainly speaks of sheep and goats in the judgment. His sheep are those who keep His commandments and the goats are those who don't, even if they had deceived themselves in this regard.

Don't be deceived. Repent! Believe in Jesus Christ and keep all of His commandments strictly for the sake of pleasing Him, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. For the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit) is at hand! It's just that simple (Romans 14:17) (Luke 17:21).
 
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