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The Apostle Paul viewed the letter of the TC as I do.
He referred to those commands as the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, for he fully understood the demands of the TC
There is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to them to entitle you to enter heaven. Perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them.
Before you accuse me of trying to excuse sin.
In the fifty years I have attended various churches, I have found those who least reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law, were those who most earnestly stressed you must obey the TC to attain heaven.
Also, once I stopped believing my justification/ righteousness in Gods sight was observing the law/ TC, and stood on a sole righteousness/ justification of faith I Christ, I started better upholding the TC( though not perfectly)
This of course is in line with Paul's core message of grace.
I would be grateful if you would respond to my previous post to The one you are replying to here. You did say if I wanted to discuss the subject you would.We've been over the "Pass mark" too, you can search the thread if interested in my comments on it.
When you say "must obey the TC to attain heaven", do you mean those that you say earnestly stressed it, meant obey without exception or forget about heaven?
Do you think Jesus showed us the true meaning/ demands of the law in the beatitudes?Keeping the TC is easy, except for two commandments perhaps. Keeping the Sermon on the Mount, though, is where it's humanly impossible. It is possible, however, to begin to live in it by the power of the Holy Spirit, who cleanses the heart and empowers etc.
But then that means you need to be saved (first) to follow Jesus' commands, and cannot follow Jesus' commands in order to be saved.
I notice you respond to few, if any questions I put to you, that could be why you responded to the post you are responding to here, rather than the previous one to it.We've been over the "Pass mark" too, you can search the thread if interested in my comments on it.
When you say "must obey the TC to attain heaven", do you mean those that you say earnestly stressed it, meant obey without exception or forget about heaven?
I think Christ reveals a few things in his teachings.Do you think Jesus showed us the true meaning/ demands of the law in the beatitudes?
What it truly means to love God and love your neighbour.
Did Christ explain the full meaning of obeying the letter?
You are correct. It is humanly impossible to attain to full obedience of the sermon on the mount. So can we say, it is humanly impossible to fully obey the true standard the letter sets?
And that is why Jesus died at Calvary for our sins
I agree with so much of what you write.I think Christ reveals a few things in his teachings.
1. He reveals the Spirit of the letter - the intention, meaning etc. As you say. But what he does is reveals a "living law" (Spirit) as opposed to a dead law of the letter.
2. He then persistently shows that He is the way and not the Law, to follow Him, the Spirit of the Law, is to not only follow the Law but go beyond it (following the living Spirit is more than following dead letter).
3. He also persistently shows that He has the authority and power to heal the whole person to love Him in such a way that His commandments are also followed. The healings he does shows his authority over everything, including the authority to forgive sins. But it's important to note that forgiveness means also separating us from sin, giving us a new heart, making us slaves to righteousness and no longer slaves to sin. It doesn't just mean saying "it's okay, it won't be counted against you" but it's also, "Go and sin no more, by my authority and word".
The authority of Jesus and his Word means that sin is no longer our master. "Go and sin no more" is not just an instruction to follow, it's a declaration from the King that you don't sin anymore because his Word has said so (and it does not return to him void).
I think we'd largely agree about Grace, but I think we can often miss the promise of the Spirit means that it is written on our hearts, so we can live it out (eventually) - but we live out the living Law, not a dead law of the letter.
What this means, however, is that following that law does not bring salvation, but rather salvation brings following the (Spirit of the) Law. And that following is for the sake of love, and for others, not to save our soul from hell. Our part is primarily faith, trusting Jesus to do what he says he will so powerfully do.
Without going back and reading my post, I believe I said I know people that are "close enough" to the criteria described in the hypothetical. IOW, no not murderers and such but hard core perpetual sinners. And for the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't matter if they are murderers or just fornicators/thieves
One major point is, the OSAS definitely has people claiming they can do whatever they want, and still be saved.
No I didn't see your post on "they were never saved to begin with", and I'm not positive this is the thread that I mentioned that someone was going to claim that, they always do, when the fact is, we don't know if they were never saved to begin with or not...
People have been working on this deception for a long time now, and no, I don't think they know it's a deception.
The explaining away of the clear Sheep and Goats scripture, always amazes me
making me think this stuff is learned from others and not from the heart.
And I meant to add, even "if" it were true, hands down, "they were never saved to begin with" that doesn't negate the fact the OSAS teaching has them believing they are, because it teaches they CAN do as they want and still get to heaven, and if these people that are explained as "aren't saved to begin with", think they are saved, they have no reason to buckle down and ever get saved, because they already are in their minds....dangerous, very dangerous.
You have to understand beyond just reading the letter.
Stuart said:Why was Christ persecuted by religious people?
Stuart said:He was supposedly
ignoring the law
Stuart said:One of the reasons Steven was arrested by religious people? He was supposedly ignoring the law
Stuart said:When Paul states circumcision I gal5:11 he means circumcision/ie law
Stuart said:Why is not preaching law the true offence of the cross?
Stuart said:Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law....phil3:9
Stuart said:Most want a righteousness of their own,
Stuart said:the alternative is to give God all the glory.
Stuart said:Only those who know they have no righteousness of their own can love God as He wants them to love him.
Stuart said:For they are the ones most grateful for what Christ truly achieved at Calvary
If you want me to read and respond to posts you will have to make them much shorter than the above. Pick out one thing in the above, repost it and i will respondGod’s Word is profitable for instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect and throughly furnished unto all good works.
For it is written...
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17).
But your belief doesn’t really believe that, though.
You do not believe that the man of God may be perfect as 2 Timothy 3:17 says.
You do not believe the man of God will be furnished unto all good works because you believe 1 John 1:8 says that the man of God must always declare that he is in sin otherwise he is a liar. How can one do good works if one is also sinning? Doesn’t make any sense. Jesus says no man can serve two masters. Jesus says, he that sins is a slave to sin. Paul says we are slaves to righteousness. Are you a slave to sin or are you a slave to righteousness?
Also, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing.
3 “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, ...”
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
James says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
(James 4:6).
So the sin of pride is enough for God to resist a person and not give them grace.
They have to be humble. It is not an option.
For do you admit that people who do sinful things and claim to know Christ are not saved?
See 1 John 2:4.
For can a person murder others and say they know Christ?
Can a person commit adultery and say they know Christ?
Can a person steal and say they know Christ?
Sure, you may say we have to strive in not to sin, but we both know your version of the gospel teaches that it is really not necessary for a believer to stop sinning because they got their “hell out of free card” by having a mental acknowledgement that Jesus is their Savior.
The Bible says, the grace of God teaches us to say no to ungodliness.
But the grace that I hear you preaching sounds like, “do not worry about ungodliness.”
For you, it is all belief in order to ultimately be right with God.
While believing in Jesus as one’s savior is important, it is more than that.
One’s faith in Jesus leads us to repent of our sins and to walk uprightly in Him. Our actions is a part of our faith in God. For faith without works is dead. Our works alone? No. God directed works is what saves (Both in Justification and in Sanctification). For it was the work of God at the cross and the resurrection that initially saved us.
But God also desires to do the work in a believer’s life by helping them to be conformed to the image of Christ and to overcome sin (By the process of Sanctification). For Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts.
Why was Jesus persecuted? Well, Jesus says, “I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you” (John 8:37).
"If you were children of Abraham,... you would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:39).
This next part plays into why people do not understand Jesus’s words.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” (John 8:43-47).
So we see that it is sin and not hearing (not obeying) God’s Words (Which would include not obeying God’s Commands). This is the reason why a person cannot understand the words of Jesus (or the Word). For they do not follow what He says.
Also, the Pharisees persecuted Jesus because they loved the darkness (i.e. their sin or evil). How so?
It is written….
19 “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19-21).
The Pharisees persecuted Jesus because they were of their father the devil.
For he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).
No. The reason why the Jews persecuted Jesus is because men love darkness rather than the light (John 3:19). For everyone that does evil hates the light (John 3:20).
The Jews could not find any fault in Jesus. For they tried to get Pilate to condemn Jesus for a specific crime, but Pilate said, that he found no fault in Jesus (Luke 23:4).
The Scriptures say that Jesus was without sin. We are told to follow after Jesus’s example (1 Peter 4:1-6). We are told to walk as he walked (1 John 2:6). Yes, the Jews did falsely accuse Jesus. They said, “We have a law, and according to our law he ought to die, because he claimed to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7). In other words, this was the only thing they could charge Him with. Yet, Jesus is God. So His claim was not false. But even this charge should not have sticked because Jesus said to them, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”
True. Stephen was accused of speaking blasphemy against Moses, the Law, and the temple.
But Stephen did not do any of these things. He was innocent.
But you have to realize that Stephen did not teach a doctrine of salvation that could lead men to treat sin as if it was no more dangerous than say a fluffy kitten. Stephen did not teach that we can sin and still be saved.
On the contrary, Stephen condemned his accusers because he essentially said that they had persecuted God’s people throughout time. They were murderers. This accusation was enough to get them to stone him. In other words, it was the Pharisee’s wrong actions in their faith that was wrong. For if they obeyed God’s Word, they would have accepted Jesus. For Jesus says he that is of God hears God’s words (John 8:47).
Well, when you read Galatians 5:11, You also have to read Galatians 5:6, Galatians 5:13, Galatians 5:14, Galatians 5:16, and Galatians 5:24.
For it says,
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:6, Galatians 5:13, Galatians 5:14, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24).
For those who do sinful things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).
Nobody here is proposing Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. Christians believe that Jesus saves by having faith in Him and His work with His death and resurrection. But salvation does not stop there. Jesus saves us also from being a slave to sin, as well. It’s why Paul rejoiced in Romans 7:25 that Jesus has now delivered him. For Paul says, sin shall not have dominion over you.
Again, the Pharisees believed in a plan of salvation without Jesus. In fact, they were not even good Old Covenant believers. They were not living by faith (See Hebrews 11 for the heroes of faith as a contrast). Even Christ’s disciples were Jewish, but the Lord chose them because they were obedient and not disobedient.
Again, Paul talked this way because he used to be a Pharisee. They turned salvation into a system of works without any faith, love, or grace. They even invented their own traditions and laws. So when Paul talks about not having my own righteousness, he is talking about the Pharisees and not about how believers should allow Jesus to flow thru their life.
Also, Philippians 3:9 does not support Antinomianism. It supports us in being conformed into Christ’s image.
“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;” (Philippians 3:10).
So unrighteousness or sin is the better alternative or the way of God? While people do try to justify their own actions, most people today like the idea of doing certain bad things. Some may put on a religious front by being good around certain others and yet they feel they deserve the right to indulge in their little pets sins like porn, and or yelling profanities at people in traffic, etc. In other words, most people are not really concerned in walking uprightly with God. Those who are hypocrites to God’s Word seek to have a righteousness that is their own. For they say they believe in the Bible and yet they do not put into action anything of what it says. For Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not what I say?
Yes. God gets all the glory when a believer submits to the Lord whereby God can work thru them. But a believer who sins is not giving God the glory. That would be giving the devil the glory because he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8).
Nowhere did I state that we have to have our own righteousness.
I believe there is none good but God.
So the believer has to submit to God and allow Him to do the good work within their life.
For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).
Those who sin cannot love God or love Him in such a way that He desires to be loved because it is written…
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?” (1 John 4:20).
When a person sins, they are hating fellow neighbor (and they are not loving them) (See Romans 13:8-10). For he that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8).
How can one be grateful if they have not let Jesus to have the victory over sin within their life?
For if a person is still sinning, they have not repented. They have not allowed Jesus to flow thru their life and to change them. They are still captive or a slave to sin. However, Jesus came to set the captives free.
Also, you believe the word “Law” used by Paul is in reference to all Law. You base this claim on Paul’s claims in Romans 7 and Romans 13:8-10. But there are several problems with this kind of reading, though.
#1. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So not all Law is the same.
#2. We can see clear changes in the Law like turning the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. Eating unclean animals under the New Covenant. There are no more animal sacrifices offered to a priest anymore. There is no more circumcision. There is no Saturday Sabbath Command(s) that is binding for believers anymore.
#3. The context of the surrounding text or chapters has to go ignored when reading the word “law” referenced by Paul. Paul uses words like “circumcision” etc. to give us a clue to the type of Law that Paul is talking about.
#4. Romans 8:2 mentions two laws and it describs how the one law has made Paul free from the other law. For Paul says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).
….
If you want me to read and respond to posts you will have to make them much shorter than the above. Pick out one thing in the above, repost it and i will respond
Would you tell someone who knew their twelve times table:
The devil can quote scripture.Sorry. I will not cater to your laziness. For you can reply to my post a piece at a time. If you do not want a reply it is because you do not want to see what is written in God's Word.
...
Would you tell someone who knew their twelve times table:
You must know your twelve times table
I'm sure you wouldn't. So why do you feel the need to warn your brothers and sisters about sin?
I would worry about your own shortcomings if I was you.
Such as repeatedly stating if you love Christ you will obey his commands in the gospels when you yourself do not try and obey them all.
That I sinning concerning the second most important commandment
The teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat.
I dont listen to third parties opinions, I prefer to simply debate one on oneWatch the video and check out the verses for yourself.
Again, don't be lazy.
...
Do you commit sin?The problem I have with the OSAS gospel is that it appears to favor unrighteousness over that which is righteous. But the author of Hebrews says this about believers.
"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Hebrews 1:9).
Meaning, believers love righteousness and they hate iniquity or sin. But if believers preach a sin and still be saved gospel, it does not appear like they hate inquity or sin, though.
Little does the OSAS proponent fully understand that...
"...the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans 1:18).
...
The teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat.
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you
But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach
They tie up heavy loads and put them on mens shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them
Matt23:2-4
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