Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

squint · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
Take a good look at what Jesus said to some people who had walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and would seem that they also thought they were saved. People who were not obedient to God and live his Word.

One had to be walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit to cast out demons. Only God can cast out demons.

The term 'cast out' also means 'to reveal.'

If believers are honest with God, they will understand their own iniquity honestly and will not seek to hide it, cover it up, deny it, or condemn themselves or other believers for it.

Evil that defiles us comes from within. It is as little as a single stray thought. Nothing more than a glance can insert evil.

And no one avoids confronting that within them. It is evil thought and it is defiling thought.

Those who claim they have none? Such are quite low on the 'trust' scale for not telling the truth. Such even really think they are to be taken credibly. That is how deceived they can be within.

One can not live in an evil world without the sight of it marring us within.

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Giver · Feb 3, 2013

simonthezealot said:
God does categorize sin, make no mistake about it it is throughout scripture, while even a single sin leads to death that does not mean He holds all sins equal.

Yes you seem to have many beliefs, but in order to have such beliefs you need to ignore much of the written Word of God.

You may not think it is right for a Christian to judge another Christian, but Paul disagreed with you.

(1 Corinthians 6:3-11) If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother goes to law against anotherand this in front of unbelievers!

(1 Corinthians 5:11) What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slander, or a drunkard, or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.

Is not Paul telling us that we are to judge if a brother is living an immoral Life?

FredVB · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
Jesus came defeated Satan/sin, and then gave us his Holy Spirit.

(1 John 3:8) He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work

When man is baptized in Jesus name, he or she can then receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will teach, and give one the grace/power to live the whole Word of God.

Then when one shows God that he or she loves him by living his Word God makes a home in the person.

(John 14:23) Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.

Now after a person becomes a temple of God, he or she will have God protecting his home. Satan/sin cant enter Gods home.

When Peter denied Jesus three times, he had not yet had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This whole account, although it should happen, ignores a needed process of spiritual growth in believers as they respond, that for some of them may happen quickly, but for many takes a good deal of time, with overcoming sin often with struggles with certain things. And yet one is not without sin in accusing others, even of not having truth, when they are believers.

Giver · Feb 3, 2013

Fred V B said:
This whole account, although it should happen, ignores a needed process of spiritual growth in believers as they respond, that for some of them may happen quickly, but for many takes a good deal of time, with overcoming sin often with struggles with certain things. And yet one is not without sin in accusing others, even of not having truth, when they are believers.

Did the account ignore anything? If one receives the Holy Spirit, and then is given the grace and leadership of the Holy Spirit, does that not mean one is being led to holiness.

I agree some people go into Christianity with many hurts that need to be healed: habits and ways of thinking and doing that need to be changed.

When one has taught by the Holy Spirit and given the grace to live the whole Word of God then God makes a home in a person.

(John 14:23) Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.

When God makes a home in a person is when that person in my opinion becomes spiritual, and will never sin again.

sunlover1 · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
(John 14:23) Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.

When God makes a home in a person is when that person in my opinion becomes spiritual, and will never sin again.

DO you really believe that God sent Jesus to redeem ... a couple of folks?
HE lived and DIED to get into earth to occupy our hearts and give us power to stand.
He had to do it Himself BECAUSE man couldn't do it.
Was it ever even about following every rule anyhow?
Hasn't it always been about worship and to tabernacle with His own.

Back OT:
I believe that once God has me, He won't let go.

Giver · Feb 3, 2013

Albion said:
That's right. However, the issue really is more a matter of knowing what's a sin and which sins fall into which category, especially if we were to agree with the Roman Catholic idea that one's salvation--or lack of it--hangs on knowing the difference. Put another way, no one who has said that it really does matter can tell us which sins are which (although a few posters have offered their own guesses).

John tells us there are sins that lead to death, and those that do not lead to death.

Hebrews tell us that a sin that leads to death is any sin that is deliberately committed by one who knows God (has been given the knowledge of truth).

A person who sins, I believe does not yet know God. I believe someone who believes he or she is a Christian and still sins is still an infant in Christ.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isnt that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?

sunlover1 · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
John tells us there are sins that lead to death, and those that do not lead to death.

Hebrews tell us that a sin that leads to death is any sin that is deliberately committed by one who knows God (has been given the knowledge of truth).

A person who sins, I believe does not yet know God. I believe someone who believes he or she is a Christian and still sins is still an infant in Christ.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isnt that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?

He calls them "brothers"
They do know God, they're just immature.

Giver · Feb 3, 2013

sunlover1 said:
DO you really believe that God sent Jesus to redeem ... a couple of folks?
HE lived and DIED to get into earth to occupy our hearts and give us power to stand.
He had to do it Himself BECAUSE man couldn't do it.
Was it ever even about following every rule anyhow?
Hasn't it always been about worship and to tabernacle with His own.

Back OT:
I believe that once God has me, He won't let go.

I believe what the written Word of God says, and what Jesus personally has taught me.

Jesus came to make it possible for man to be obedient to God. He came to defeat Satan/sin. Man now can live without sinning.

The Word will judge those who dont take advantage of the gift Jesus gave us. The Law will judge those people.

(Galations 5:13-26)For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.

By the way God does not let go, people let go of God by disobeying him. Just like Adam and Eve.

Rick Otto · Feb 3, 2013

To me, my salvation is like a screen saver. It's there every morning 1st thing as soon as I boot up.
I get to cross the Platte River at sunrise & it's like seeing creation's hope of His glory rising. And in the evening sunset is like creation resting in His faithfulness.

Rick Otto · Feb 3, 2013

quote=Going Merry;Usually when I see people defending OSAS doctrine they bring up verses like Ephesians 1:13-14 that says "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Wow, convincing scripture,... does it's context establish a condition of obedience, or is obedience a (to God's glory) a fruit of belief as it matures & thru learning by trial & error to trust God & walk by faith instead of self (free) will? Did that sound like a loaded question? lol

The bold I point out the people who usually defend OSAS bring that up. How many different ways can you read this scripture? For me I can see it as long as we have the holy spirit we are guaranteed. But this is all assuming we are living in obedience too. A lot of the NT warns about plainly from living in unrighteousness. That those who practice such things won't inherit the kingdom of God. In Galatians 3 for example Paul examines their faiths how they have 'fallen from grace' now I want to point out that one is not in grace unless they are part of Gods church, and to fall from grace is to be left. Now if they are believers and Paul is claiming these things then through their experience we can say "They were Christians but they fell away" and if the doctrine of OSAS is "Once saved always saved" then it is made irrational when you have clear examples through out all of the scripture. It sounds nice but its focusing on a couple scriptures that show guarantees but you misapply it.

Falling from the grace of living victoriously over sin in one's life & the grace of living in healing, nurturing relationship with a congregation of fellow believers is a bit different topic than God repenting of His gift of saving grace. Once we are saved, our works are judged & our rewards IN heaven are affected comensurately. This is how I understand the issue to date anyway. Can ya school me some more on what you think I'm missin'?

Giver · Feb 3, 2013

Rick Otto said:
Wow, convincing scripture,... does it's context establish a condition of obedience, or is obedience a (to God's glory) a fruit of belief as it matures & thru learning by trial & error to trust God & walk by faith instead of self (free) will? Did that sound like a loaded question? lol

Falling from the grace of living victoriously over sin in one's life & the grace of living in healing, nurturing relationship with a congregation of fellow believers is a bit different topic than God repenting of His gift of saving grace. Once we are saved, our works are judged & our rewards IN heaven are affected comensurately. This is how I understand the issue to date anyway. Can ya school me some more on what you think I'm missin'?

You too seem to have a belief, but need to ignore all of the Words of God that tells you that you are wrong, in order to maintain what you believe.

crimsonleaf · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
I believe someone who believes he or she is a Christian and still sins is still an infant in Christ.

Are infants in Christ saved?

Rick Otto · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
You too seem to have a belief, but need to ignore all of the Words of God that tells you that you are wrong, in order to maintain what you believe.

Thanks for your concern, Giver. I'll think on what you've said.

Rick Otto · Feb 3, 2013

crimsonleaf said:
Are infants in Christ saved?

Doesn't He chastise His sons? For what?
Oh wait, which did I forget the scripture about being disinherited?
Is that what happened to the Prodigal son?

crimsonleaf · Feb 3, 2013

Rick Otto said:
Doesn't He chastise His sons? For what?
Oh wait, which did I forget the scripture about being disinherited?
Is that what happened to the Prodigal son?

The question was directed specifically at Giver.

nephilimiyr · Feb 3, 2013

simonthezealot said:
God does categorize sin, make no mistake about it it is throughout scripture, while even a single sin leads to death that does not mean He holds all sins equal.

Ok then, now give me some examples of good sins. Or at least sins that are not abhorhent to him.

Albion · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
John tells us there are sins that lead to death, and those that do not lead to death.

Hebrews tell us that a sin that leads to death is any sin that is deliberately committed by one who knows God (has been given the knowledge of truth).

Yes, we know this. Now, which sins are which? That was the question.

A person who sins, I believe does not yet know God. I believe someone who believes he or she is a Christian and still sins is still an infant in Christ.

No, he's just a mortal.

Giver · Feb 3, 2013

Albion said:
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Yes, we know this. Now, which sins are which? That was the question.

Code:

No, he's just a mortal.

Yes that is your opinion. Paul had a different opinion, and his opinion is quoted in the written Word of God.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isnt that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?

Albion · Feb 3, 2013

Giver said:
Yes that is your opinion.

Indeed. Just as you have the opposite opinion.

BTW, the Bible easily supports my opinion, so it's not as though it's "just a personal opinion."

Giver · Feb 3, 2013

crimsonleaf said:
The question was directed specifically at Giver.

God spanks us until we grow up and become mature Christians. Gods discipline is one way God uses to teach us to come to know him.

A mature Christian no longer needs to be disciplined.

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