Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[Giver]

I believe his stance is that he loves his saved/believing neighbors so much that if they commit a single sin they may go to hell. Yeah, that love.

Is scripture teaching Love?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slander, or a drunkard, or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

 

[squint]

Is scripture teaching Love?

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slander, or a drunkard, or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

yeah, that love. that's it! So tolerant and patient that a single sin is deserving of eternal hell. Yeah.

I love it when people are honest.

s

 

[Giver]

yeah, that love. that's it! So tolerant and patient that a single sin is deserving of eternal hell. Yeah.

I love it when people are honest.

s

You noticed I teach what the written Word of God teaches. I don’t try to teach my or some so-called theologians opinion. Like Calvin or Luther’s opinions, for example.

 

[squint]

You noticed I teach what the written Word of God teaches. I don’t try to teach my or some so-called theologians opinion. Like Calvin or Luther’s opinions, for example.

Oh, I know pretty well from your own mouth what you teach. One sin by a believer and it's eternal toast for your believing neighbor in your so called loving eyes.

You think this is something new to christianity?

s

 

[Giver]

Oh, I know pretty well from your own mouth what you teach. One sin by a believer and it's eternal toast for your believing neighbor in your so called loving eyes.

You think this is something new to christianity?

s

The following is a letter by Saint. Maximus the Confessor and it explains in a very unique way what I have been saying, that people who know God do not sin.


The manner of birth from God within us is two-fold: the one bestows the grace of adoption, which is entirely present in potency in those who are born of God; the other introduces, wholly by active exertion, that grace which deliberately reorients the entire free choice of the one being born of God toward the God who gives birth. The first bears the grace, present in potency through faith alone; but the second, beyond, also engenders in the knower the sublimely divine likeness of the One known, that likeness being effected precisely through knowledge. Therefore the first manner of birth is observed in some because their will, not yet fully detached from its propensity to the flesh, has yet to be wholly endowed with the Spirit by participation in the divine mysteries that are made known through active endeavor. The inclination to sin does not disappear as long as they will it. For the Spirit does not give birth to an unwilling will, but converts the willing will toward deification. (So a person doesn’t stop sinning just because they will not to sin.) Whoever has participated in this deification through cognizance experience is incapable of reverting from right discernment in truth, once he has achieved this in action, to something else besides, which only pretends to be that same discernment. (Once a person comes to know God, through the Holy Spirit, they are incapable of reverting to their sinful ways.) It is like the eye, which, once it has looked upon the sun, cannot mistake it for the moon or any of the other stars in the heavens. With those undergoing the (second mode of) birth, the Holy Spirit takes the whole of their free choice and translates it completely from earth to heaven, and, through the true knowledge acquired by exertion, transfigures the mind with the blessed light rays of our God and Father, such that the mind is deemed another “God,” insofar as in its habitude if experiences, by grace, that which God himself does not experience but “is” in his very essence. With those undergoing this second mode of baptism, their free choice clearly becomes sinless in virtue and knowledge, as they are unable to negate what they have actively discerned through experience. So even if we have the Spirit of adoption, who is himself the Seed for enduring those begotten (through baptism) with the likeness of the Sower, but do not present him with a will cleansed of any inclination or disposition to something else, we therefore, even after being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5), willingly sin. But were we to prepare our will with knowledge to receive the operation of these agents-water and Spirit, I mean-then the mystical water would, through our practical life, cleanse our conscience, and the life-giving Spirit would bring about unchanging perfection of the good in us through knowledge acquired in experience. Precisely for that reason he leaves, to each of us who are still able to sin, the sheer desire to surrender our whole selves willing to the Spirit.

St. Maximus the Confessor

 

[squint]

The following is a letter by Saint. Maximus the Confessor and it explains in a very unique way what I have been saying, that people who know God do not sin.

Interesting you'd quote a guy who had his tongue cut out and right hand cut off for heresy.

I'm kinda glad that those kinds of people are no longer in charge of the church, aren't you?

s

 

[sonshine234]

You noticed I teach what the written Word of God teaches. I don’t try to teach my or some so-called theologians opinion. Like Calvin or Luther’s opinions, for example.

Actually you do teach your own opinions, everyone does. The Bible (which is a word of God, The Word of God is Christ) does not exist in a vacumn we all bring our bias to the table

 

[Giver]

Interesting you'd quote a guy who had his tongue cut out and right hand cut off for heresy.

I'm kinda glad that those kinds of people are no longer in charge of the church, aren't you?

s

You did not understand that the Church saw the error of its ways, and made him a Saint?

 

[squint]

You did not understand that the Church saw the error of its ways, and made him a Saint?

It's even funnier that you claim you talk to Jesus and then quote somebody else thinking that man confirms your claims.

Where did Jesus tell you that if you sin one time you are going to burn alive forever?

You'll have to pardon me for thinking you may be having a real vicious imagination issue.

Matthew 18:
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Do you think it an ever so slightly chance that the Jesus in your head or sitting on your couch talking to you might not be?

Probably not, huh?

s

 

[Giver]

It's even funnier that you claim you talk to Jesus and then quote somebody else thinking that man confirms your claims.

Where did Jesus tell you that if you sin one time you are going to burn alive forever?

You'll have to pardon me for thinking you may be having a real vicious imagination issue.

Matthew 18:
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Do you think it an ever so slightly chance that the Jesus in your head or sitting on your couch talking to you might not be?

Probably not, huh?

s

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

You might understand what Hebrews tells us if you had my understanding of what it is to be a Christian.

Peter knew what a Christian was, and when two of them deliberately committed a sin, he told them they were dead.

(Acts 5:1-11) “There was another man, however, called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, Peter said ‘now can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God. When he heard this Ananias fell down dead. This made a profound impression on everyone present. The younger men got up, wrapped the body in a sheet, carried it out and buried it.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had taken place. Peter challenged her, ‘Tell me was this the price you sold the land for? ‘Yes,’ she said ‘that was the price.’ Peter then said, ‘So you and your husband have agreed to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test! What made you do it? You hear those footsteps? They have just been to bury your husband; they will carry you out, too.’ Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in they found she was dead, and they carried her out and buried her by the side of her husband. This made a profound impression on the whole Church and on all who heard it.”

 

[squint]

You might understand what Hebrews tells us if you had my understanding of what it is to be a Christian.

You claim you ask Jesus and then show up with statements that openly contradict Jesus.

I might suggest that the Jesus sitting next to you on the couch either isn't Jesus or that Jesus is telling you things that are openly contradictory to His Words.

Peter knew what a Christian was, and when two of them deliberately committed a sin, he told them they were dead.

Fact is Giver, you can pick out any scripture you want and camp on it. That makes it a 'reflection' of what is within your own heart.

Jesus told me that we are to forgive 70 times 7, yet your Jesus is going to burn you alive forever for a single sin.

I'd say we have a different Jesus in play wouldn't you?

I'd say your Jesus is a pretty vicious little character sitting next you on the couch who's words don't line up well or at all with what Jesus actually said.

s

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

You claim you ask Jesus and then show up with statements that openly contradict Jesus.

I might suggest that the Jesus sitting next to you on the couch either isn't Jesus or that Jesus is telling you things that are openly contradictory to His Words.



Fact is Giver, you can pick out any scripture you want and camp on it. That makes it a 'reflection' of what is within your own heart.

Jesus told me that we are to forgive 70 times 7, yet your Jesus is going to burn you alive forever for a single sin.

I'd say we have a different Jesus in play wouldn't you?

I'd say your Jesus is a pretty vicious little character sitting next you on the couch who's words don't line up well or at all with what Jesus actually said.

s

 

[nephilimiyr]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

Certainly a type of judgment like this should only be left up to God. The reason why I hate such questions like this is because it causes all of us christians to judge. The funny thing is, alot of us love playing the role of judge, don't we?

My doctrinal belief is that after a person has become born again the only thing that will negate that is a total rejection of the gift that person had once recieved, and only by the person, not God. God, in my view, doesn't catagorize sin. I mean, God sees all sins as being bad. There are no good sins and there are no worse sins than others. Except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit of course.

All christians sin at some point. Just because we're born again doesn't mean we no longer need a savoir. If in the act of a sin we die, the sin is covered under the blood of Jesus. Salvation is not lost because of one sin, or even a group of sins. My belief is that over a period of time continueous sins may change the heart of the christian and cause him/her to reject the gift that they once accepted. What follows is that the person forfits their salvation. I don't think it happens nearly as much as people think but it does happen.

So OSAS, no, but one doesn't lose their salvation either, especially after having commited a sin or a group of sins. The forfiture of salvation happens after a period of time in which the believer rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior due to their ever growing love of sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

God's the one that judges. We can't know if anybody will go to hell. The best we can do is speculate or hope. There are many passages in the bible that warn against sins after baptism. There are some passages about sins that lead to death or that are unforgivable. So it seems that the best course of action for a Christian is to avoid what you've described. But if one does fall into sins then hope in God's mercy.

Lord have mercy.

 

[Going Merry]

Usually when I see people defending OSAS doctrine they bring up verses like Ephesians 1:13-14 that says "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

The bold I point out the people who usually defend OSAS bring that up. How many different ways can you read this scripture? For me I can see it as long as we have the holy spirit we are guaranteed. But this is all assuming we are living in obedience too. A lot of the NT warns about plainly from living in unrighteousness. That those who practice such things won't inherit the kingdom of God. In Galatians 3 for example Paul examines their faiths how they have 'fallen from grace' now I want to point out that one is not in grace unless they are part of Gods church, and to fall from grace is to be left. Now if they are believers and Paul is claiming these things then through their experience we can say "They were Christians but they fell away" and if the doctrine of OSAS is "Once saved always saved" then it is made irrational when you have clear examples through out all of the scripture. It sounds nice but its focusing on a couple scriptures that show guarantees but you misapply it.

 

[Giver]

You claim you ask Jesus and then show up with statements that openly contradict Jesus.

I might suggest that the Jesus sitting next to you on the couch either isn't Jesus or that Jesus is telling you things that are openly contradictory to His Words.



Fact is Giver, you can pick out any scripture you want and camp on it. That makes it a 'reflection' of what is within your own heart.

Jesus told me that we are to forgive 70 times 7, yet your Jesus is going to burn you alive forever for a single sin.

I'd say we have a different Jesus in play wouldn't you?

I'd say your Jesus is a pretty vicious little character sitting next you on the couch who's words don't line up well or at all with what Jesus actually said.

s

Yes I use scripture, and it is scripture you have to ignore in order to believe what you have been taught. The scripture does not need anyone to explain what it says or means.

Jesus told us to forgive one’s brother, but one’s brother did not come down from heaven to be hung on the cross for him.

When one sins it is not only one’s brother who is hurt but also the Spirit of Grace is insulted. No repentance for insulting the Spirit of Grace.

 

[squint]

Yes I use scripture, and it is scripture you have to ignore in order to believe what you have been taught. The scripture does not need anyone to explain what it says or means.

Jesus told us to forgive one’s brother, but one’s brother did not come down from heaven to be hung on the cross for him.

When one sins it is not only one’s brother who is hurt but also the Spirit of Grace is insulted. No repentance for insulting the Spirit of Grace.

Yeah, it's abundantly clear that to you Jesus advises us to be abundantly forgiving to sins of others, but to those He saves He has quite a different approach.

The good old double standard.

s

 

[Giver]

Yeah, it's abundantly clear that to you Jesus advises us to be abundantly forgiving to sins of others, but to those He saves He has quite a different approach.

The good old double standard.

s

Take a good look at what Jesus said to some people who had walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and would seem that they also thought they were saved. People who were not obedient to God and live his Word.

One had to be walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit to cast out demons. Only God can cast out demons.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[simonthezealot]

Certainly a type of judgment like this should only be left up to God. The reason why I hate such questions like this is because it causes all of us christians to judge. The funny thing is, alot of us love playing the role of judge, don't we?

My doctrinal belief is that after a person has become born again the only thing that will negate that is a total rejection of the gift that person had once recieved, and only by the person, not God. God, in my view, doesn't catagorize sin. I mean, God sees all sins as being bad. There are no good sins and there are no worse sins than others. Except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit of course.

All christians sin at some point. Just because we're born again doesn't mean we no longer need a savoir. If in the act of a sin we die, the sin is covered under the blood of Jesus. Salvation is not lost because of one sin, or even a group of sins. My belief is that over a period of time continueous sins may change the heart of the christian and cause him/her to reject the gift that they once accepted. What follows is that the person forfits their salvation. I don't think it happens nearly as much as people think but it does happen.

So OSAS, no, but one doesn't lose their salvation either, especially after having commited a sin or a group of sins. The forfiture of salvation happens after a period of time in which the believer rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior due to their ever growing love of sin.

God does categorize sin, make no mistake about it it is throughout scripture, while even a single sin leads to death that does not mean He holds all sins equal.

 

[Albion]

God does categorize sin, make no mistake about it it is throughout scripture, while even a single sin leads to death that does not mean He holds all sins equal.

That's right. However, the issue really is more a matter of knowing what's a sin and which sins fall into which category, especially if we were to agree with the Roman Catholic idea that one's salvation--or lack of it--hangs on knowing the difference. Put another way, no one who has said that it really does matter can tell us which sins are which (although a few posters have offered their own guesses).