Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

Fireinfolding

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of course.

Again, indeed. They were slated, PREdetermined, to RESIST and in that they executed their ROLES exactly as God Himself intended.

I have examined the 'roles, ways and means' of resistors to God for quite a long time, not wanting to be found in that place...;)

Yes, but you do understand that God does purposefully withhold information from the majority?

It's such a fascinating construct, we humans.

Matthew 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

To what I call the uninitiated what we dicuss here would be quite unintelligible and senseless. Well at least my posts would be....;)

Genuine Christians are in fact a very very rare bird and should not be sentenced for any reason to the eternal cooking bag. They are most precious in His Sight.

Jewels of the Most High without any doubt.

Those who seek to diminish the faith of others by dangling them over the eternal flames of hell are not doing themselves or their fellow believers any favors, as much as they might think they are.

s


Theres tons of confirming verses on the same verse Mat 13:14 also posting on them before showing the awesomeness of Gods words. Who fulfils the words of his prophets. Proving Jesus Christ is what I love,:thumbsup: Folks have various doctrines on death and hell and the Lake of fire, if you feel they are incorrect by the verses they post feel free to correct them.
 
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squint

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Theres tons of confirming verses on the same verse Mat 13:14 also posting on them before showing the awesomeness of Gods words. Who fulfils the words of his prophets. Proving Jesus Christ is what I love,:thumbsup: Folks have various doctrines on death and hell and the Lake of fire, if you feel they are incorrect by the verses they post feel free to correct them.

I believe every Word of God, the Apostles etc etc.

Do I believe any of them sentence believers to the potential of eternal death or burning alive forever...?

Uh, no. IT is factually a non-existing position.

The scriptures without any question sets the bait for that position to be taken however, and it has been taken quite sufficiently. It does so just to show us how evil hearts can really be.

It is, in short, a REFLECTION of the READERs hearts.


s
 
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seeingeyes

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Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Can we attain the perfect sinless righteousness of Christ? maybe. Should we ever claim, as Giver has, to have attained such

(Has he claimed that? I haven't been watching that closely.)

But at any rate, if we are 'in Christ' are we not 'in' his righteousness as well?

How much space is there between us and our Savior?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

But how could darkness be yoked with light?

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, http://bible.cc/romans/8-4.htmin order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit."

The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us who live according to the Spirit.
 
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Giver

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That does not mean you did it perfectly. You may be older and more experienced. But you are human. Therefore, you have faults. There was never a time in the life of Paul when he claimed to be without sin. In fact, he referred to himself as the chief of sinners. Never did the Apostles claim that they had rid themselves of sin.
It amazes me that educated people will in order to stay blind, read where Paul said he was the chief of sinners and believe he was talking about after being filled with the Holy Spirit.

It also amazes me that people can’t fathom God having enough power to keep his home from being invaded by Satan/sin.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


 
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Fireinfolding

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I believe every Word of God, the Apostles etc etc.

Do I believe any of them sentence believers to the potential of eternal death or burning alive forever...?

Uh, no. IT is factually a non-existing position.

The scriptures without any question sets the bait for that position to be taken however, and it has been taken quite sufficiently. It does so just to show us how evil hearts can really be.

It is, in short, a REFLECTION of the READERs hearts.

s

Then correct whatever view is off when it is not based on the scripture by the scripture. Why are you taking this up with me?

I weigh in on what is said on both sides, I watch how they compare the sciptures (what they leave out) and I notice both sides corrupting it, cant talk with that without one side accusing the other of something.

Just not into getting tangled in all of that.
 
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squint

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It amazes me that educated people will in order to stay blind, read where Paul said he was the chief of sinners and believe he was talking about after being filled with the Holy Spirit.

It amazes me even more that people read his statement and can't see the present tense application of 'I am' and read it as 'I was' instead.

1 Timothy 1:15

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief.

Those who read the above as the non-existing 'I WAS' also have problems with other 'present tense' terms such as we can not say we 'have' [present tense] no sin.

Sound familiar?

Probably not.

s
 
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Giver

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It amazes me even more that people read his statement and can't see the present tense application of 'I am' and read it as 'I was' instead.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Those who read the above as the non-existing 'I WAS' also have problems with other 'present tense' terms such as we can not say we 'have' [present tense] no sin.

Sound familiar?

Probably not.

s
Yes one can read Paul in such a way that it can make him or her feel righteous even when they sin.

Yet the very Paul they want to believe was the chief of sinners wrote the following. Now I wonder how these want to be righteous people will misread this verse Paul wrote.

(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that. It is not my business to pass judgment on those outside. Of those who are inside, you can surely be the judges. But of those who are outside, God is the judge. You must drive out this evil-doer from among you

 
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Rick Otto

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It amazes me that educated people will in order to stay blind, read where Paul said he was the chief of sinners and believe he was talking about after being filled with the Holy Spirit.
How come you're not amazed at your own blindness to verb tense?
 
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Fireinfolding

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1Titus 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

He is keeping with being found sinners in the present tense, he put the difference between I live (and yet not I) but Christ liveth in me (after) even as he does so with the grace that is with me. He doesnt (even as grace does not) give license to the continuanation of sin (God forbid he says). Otherwise that would be rather hypocritical to say to off the old man and his lusts when he is presently living according to them. Grace come by Christ, even as obedience comes by grace under which sin shall not have dominion over you.

Next God forbid

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Even when Paul speaks of his labouring, it was by the grace of God that was with him. He didnt say its me but rather he said I yet not I but the grace of God with me.

Folks need to sprinkle on some grace:thumbsup:
 
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squint

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Yes one can read Paul in such a way that it can make him or her feel righteous even when they sin.

Yet the very Paul they want to believe was the chief of sinners wrote the following. Now I wonder how these want to be righteous people will misread this verse Paul wrote.

(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that. It is not my business to pass judgment on those outside. Of those who are inside, you can surely be the judges. But of those who are outside, God is the judge. You must drive out this evil-doer from among you

It appears to be quite certain that present tense applications of those terms are meaningless to you...because if they were meaningful to you your position and promotion of being sinless are, er, ah, UNtenable.

Unfortunately it would also appear that perhaps hundreds of believers have pointed this out to you by now and that too means nothing to you other than we all might be lying by reading plain English.

s
 
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stevenfrancis

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I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought . :confused:

It is not for us to say, of course. There is ALWAYS the chance of God's mercy, which is, of course, infinite. I myself have committed sin, but my heart wasn't in it. I hated it, and myself even while I was doing something, and wished I wasn't doing it, and then sought to diffuse the situation by stopping it, and praying for mercy. If I hadn't gotten around to the stopping it, and praying for mercy yet, God would still know that I was sorrowful.

When we die, we are removed from constraints of time, and we then exist outside time. What may be the split microsecond of our death to an observer on earth might be like a century when we're not quite dead, and not quite alive. Had this man with the prostitute lived "towards" perfection to the best of his ability, recognizing when he did wrong, and seeking forgiveness right away with a sincerely contrite heart? Is this is pattern in life? Or is he a routinely callous scofflaw and materialist whose modus operendi is habitual sin without remorse and repentence? How does he look to God? What has he done for others? Does he love others as himself most times? Does he usually feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, clothe the naked? etc.? Or in his daily life, outside of this one fall of sin, is he also selfish, angry, resentful, and petty?

There's not nearly enough info given in the scenario of a single sin, for us humans to make a judgement.

It is believed by Christians who have an orthodox understanding of the faith, that persons who die outside of friendship with God, even if they stood up at some meeting when they were 15 and proclaimed Jesus, and accepted his baptism, that he is not destined automatically for eternal life with God.

He must also WANT it
He must commit actions which correspond with his love of God.
When he sins, (and we all do, unless we are liars), then he recognizes it immediately....doesn't try to rationalize it with legalism, and then seeks forgiveness with a truly repentant and contrite heart.

The Lord will not lose one single lamb that was given him. That is all who HEAR is voice, and allow Him to transform their lives. Who honestly desire to do God's will.

But those who have accepted the Lord in a moment of passion, then never followed up on it. Never pray, never give alms, never perform acts of mercy, who are not forgiving of those who wrong them, aren't truly sorry, even when they do ask for forgiveness because they fear hell, and not because they love God, MAY have a problem, if we listen accurately to Jesus.

It's a tough question. Fortunately, we don't have to judge anyone else. It's not our job or our place. We are called only to love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our mind, with all our being, to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to spread the gospel (good news) to others.

I would say, that overall the question is oversimplified, and misrepresented by a couple of different factions of Christians, and, of course, by virtually all non-Christians, who don't seem to get the whole thing really.

You can lose it, but only if you don't really have it anyway, and you are just one of those who will show up and say Lord Lord, only to hear our blessed Jesus say that he never knew you.

As Mary told the servants at the wedding in Cana....."DO whatever He tells you"
 
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def

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There are two kinds of righteousness spoken of in scripture, righteousness before men and righteousness before God. Before men, righteousness is gauged by attitudes and behaviors. This is the righteousness spoken of in James, and is the righteousness of those you listed in your post, seeingeyes. Righteousness before God is perfect righteousness, which we are unable to achieve, attain or merit. This is the perfect righteousness of Christ, imputed to us by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, an alien righteousness that is not ours but Christ's.

Righteousness means righteous acts. These are actions of man or of God.

1 John 3:7 says whoever practices righteousness is righteous. Since our righteousness is like filthy rags ( Isaiah 64:6); the righteousness we practice must be the righteous acts of God.

This is the essence of the New Covenant, " that I show myself holy through you before their eyes (Ezekiel 36:23)".

Alien righteousness that is imputed to a believer is a doctrine of the reformers. The word imputed does not exist in the Bible. I humbly state, they may have got it wrong.

We are right with God because we are justified before God. A person is justified because he is born again, born of the Spirit, which makes him a child of God. Paul says, believe in your heart and you are justified (Romans 10:10). It is the born again spirit that enters the kingdom of God (Hebrews 12:23).
 
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sculleywr

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I would strongly suggest your sight is no where near scripturally accurate, but whatever. I believe we've tried it before and I yawned on.

maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The only people who can be saved are human beings. They aren't the only rational beings with personhood, but they are the only people who can be saved
 
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sculleywr

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(Has he claimed that? I haven't been watching that closely.)

But at any rate, if we are 'in Christ' are we not 'in' his righteousness as well?

How much space is there between us and our Savior?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

But how could darkness be yoked with light?

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, http://bible.cc/romans/8-4.htmin order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit."

The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us who live according to the Spirit.

Even Paul states that it is a race. He states clearly that he does not claim to have yet attained.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


And yes, Giver does claim that. I've gone round about with him several times. He's become too "mature" to accept anything that anyone else says.
 
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sculleywr

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It amazes me that educated people will in order to stay blind, read where Paul said he was the chief of sinners and believe he was talking about after being filled with the Holy Spirit.

It also amazes me that people can’t fathom God having enough power to keep his home from being invaded by Satan/sin.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”



It amazes me how many basic language rules you will outright ignore to make your point work. Your point is invalid because, to put it very bluntly:

The Bible does not say it in past tense. It says it in present tense. Now, unless you plan on bringing something of real tangible value, like, I don't know, real use of the Bible as it is written, then we are done here, and you have lost.
 
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seeingeyes

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Even Paul states that it is a race. He states clearly that he does not claim to have yet attained.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."(Rom 4)

If God credits a man with righteousness, then who in the world are to say that he isn't? "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

And yes, Giver does claim that. I've gone round about with him several times. He's become too "mature" to accept anything that anyone else says.

Paul told Timothy that he had "finished the race", what do you suppose that meant?
 
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sculleywr

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"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."(Rom 4)

If God credits a man with righteousness, then who in the world are to say that he isn't? "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."



Paul told Timothy that he had "finished the race", what do you suppose that meant?

II Timothy was at the end of his life. As far as we know from history, within only a few months of writing the letter, Paul was martyred for the faith.

The race was not the race for perfection or righteousness, but the race of his life was nearing an end. He was soon to cross the finish line.
 
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seeingeyes

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II Timothy was at the end of his life. As far as we know from history, within only a few months of writing the letter, Paul was martyred for the faith.

The race was not the race for perfection or righteousness, but the race of his life was nearing an end. He was soon to cross the finish line.

So this is a different race? Maybe Paul lived so long he couldn't keep his analogies straight. ;)

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing." (2 Tim 4)

Nope, same race.

My point though, is that it might be more profitable to your own race of righteousness to ask Giver whether he has 'finished the race' as Paul did, instead of boldly asserting that his sins remains.

Just my 2 coppers. :)
 
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