Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

MoreCoffee said:

I am even less confident of the adroit divisions between Law and Gospel in the above post than I was of them in the last post.

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Which is probably why you are not Lutheran. The heart of Lutheran theology is Law and Gospel.

bbbbbbb said:

The heart of Lutheran theology is Law and Gospel.

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I would say the heart of Lutheran theology is the cross of Christ (thus "Crux sola nostra theologia"), but the proper distinction between Law and Gospel is certainly very important.

Going Merry said:

Idk about Givers beliefs but. That's pretty offensive. Personally I believe I haven't had sin since I was born again too. I have sinned after being born again. But I said I haven't had sin since I was born again. I say that because I am thinking about the whole situation fundamentally different I guess. I believe his baptism took up all the worlds sin; so he was carrying these sins i committed. Then he was crucified paying their wages off. How can I have sin then if I believe in him? he blotted out the worlds sin.. this doesnt mean i believe in OSAS, if you leave the faith you're dead.

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I wonder if you read what I posted on the other thread? Because I gave you many verses that answered much of what you just said. But you didn't answer my question still, I asked why you feel like you need to laugh at serious things? Or make something into a joke that is very serious?

squint said:

Not being one to dance around the facts too long, let's cut to the chase on this subject. It's not like I haven't examined or held them both at some time past, being critical in the extreme of what I hold. Wanting to be both IN Truth and 'truthful' to The Word as my measures.

None of us should be willing to say we cut sin/evil within ourselves any slack, period, end of conversation. And we all also know either by experience or by observation that sincere believers can fall away. And we all are commanded, YES (I know the Grace Alone folk hate this) we are commanded to depart from iniquity. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that these particular matters are a solid unchangeable fact.

Would you agree or disagree? And let's not get too picky or particular about these general observations. If you agree will try to go on with civil discourse.

IF not, I might just have to say you might be saved and you might not be. There really is no way to tell from your own statements as if your position is that you might not be then...you might not be as you say it yourself.

My alltime almost favorite subject. Get back to me on the above and then we may plumb these depths a little closer. I think you may find it interesting. I agree fwiw because it's true. I might not term 'sin' as 'living' though. Maybe more like 'death' huh? Maybe even 'walking' death? If we walk in sin we technically are walking in death.

Many believers have tried to point that out to him, but he seems to prefer the delusion aka a lie. We all know we can not say we have no sin and be in Truth. He chooses to bypass that matter.

Anyone 'legitimately' engaged in faith is factually engaged in a battle, primarily focused within. Some are not front line warrior (grunts), so their discourse does not carry the same intensity or gravity nor does it have to. Others are more interested in setting sights that work against our enemies, which are mutual. We are all supposed to be on the same page on these matters aren't we?

For the record other believers are not my enemies.

So do you. Look at your own factual statement above.

Scriptures do tell us 'how to divide.' I can tell you it is quite a painful, long and slow process. OR it can be fast and somewhat instantaneous given a miracle or two. Like Paul being struck by blinding light. It divided him from his enemy(s) permanently almost immediately, but he still spent 14 years in the seat of revelation teachings. Mostly like us, being deeply engaged in the scriptures and His Spirit. I love this part of my life as well having a similar relationship. It has been wonderful in this respect for a very long time. The Spirit of God is a most marvelous teacher. And commands us to share and exchange. To barter for souls, etc. It's quite engaging.

I've never said that. Not a once on these boards, ever. Please read closer. One can assuredly fall in this present life. That does not automatically equate to the eternal loss of salvation. It may mean you have a little smaller mansion on the outskirts of heaven or you will be maybe spiritually smaller in the next age. But eternally lost. Uh no. There just is no such animal anywhere in the text laid on New Testament believers. It doesn't exist in the text, period. But this does not speak to all of what we are currently. And that is where the subject matter will get considerably more interesting to you, personally. You may not be equipped to have an adult conversation about it. A lot of 'new' or 'younger' believers are not able to handle it. Most need to learn by the painful experience of falling to the enemy. They need battle scars to learn. And I understand that. Been there. I don't know what Gods Plan for you is in this particular arena. I know He has one though.

So, He will either show Himself in you with me in truthful discourse. Or. That's how it works. You see just by picking these subjects up the 'internal resistance' factor gets quite riled. Especially when talking to believers like me.

I think we've covered this.

Get back to me on the above. Will see where it goes. It 'might' not go.

s

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I don't understand what you mean by not cut sin?

The only reason I don't agree with people, is because most of the time they don't speak the truth, of what scripture says. What do you think? Is that to be thought of as wrong, when I don't agree because of the Word of God? Am I now just some young christian, because I refuse to believe something that is not scriptural? God has taught me, and He continues to teach me. Through His word, and by the Spirit. He speaks through me, because I know that in myself, I could never say, or even come up with any of these things. It is by Christ, and Christ alone, that I am able to understand His word, and live by His Spirit, rather than my sinful nature. I have not obtained all that Christ in His fullness is, but I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


Paul said sin was living in Him. If he said it was dead in him, that would mean we never sin. Sin lives in us, meaning active, our sinful nature.

If we are IN Christ Jesus, and He in us, we are all in the same battle, of the sinful nature, and daily, we are choosing to either sow to the Spirit, (dying to ourselves), and reap eternal life, or sow to our flesh, and reap destruction. There is no in between like you say. Less rewards or what not. We get less rewards, if we begin to sin outwardly, the outward acts. But sinning inwardly, not sowing to the Spirit, and living by the sinful nature, continuing to do that willfully, will reap destruction, just as the verse says. Reap destruction, is not just losing rewards, it says, destruction. I am not making my fellow believers an enemy, I am making sure we know the truth, so that we will all the more persevere in the faith. "Anything, that is not of faith, is sin". So, if we do not persevere in the faith, we will be sinning inwardly against the Spirit, (because faith is unseen), and we will not be saved, because it is by grace through faith, that we are saved.

This whole time, you have been saying that we can't lose our salvation. I don't know why you said you have never said that. This is what you said:

But eternally lost. Uh no. There just is no such animal anywhere in the text laid on New Testament believers. It doesn't exist in the text, period.

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Yes it does, I will yet again give you the verses that say, we can be saved, cleansed, sanctified, and then not be saved, because we fall away.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Crucifying the Son of God all over again? The son of God by which we are saved? That is much more serious than merely losing rewards. It says go on to maturity, about eternal judgement too.

John 15:1-6
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Now what do you think it means, when it says "if anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away, withers, picked up, thrown into the fire, and burned"?

I have gone through much turmoil, inside myself. You can't even imagine. I had to persevere, even when I didn't feel anything from the Spirit, God was testing my heart, to see if I would continue to persevere, even when I didn't hear of feel anything from Him. Some nights I would stay up, just struggling with myself, utterly hating that I could not do anything by the Spirit. Waking up, feeling my flesh taking over already, having to fight that same thing, without seeing any fruit come out of it. I prayed, and fought, still nothing, and ask, called upon God, still nothing, but I continued all the more. One day, after many of the same dreadful ones, I woke up, and was full of the joy of the Lord, and the Spirit, speaking the word with boldness and authority, knowing that it was not of myself, but from God, and my labor and toil for all that time, God finally rewarded me for it. I am not saying that I don't continue that fight, because I know I must, neither am I saying that I have already obtained everything in one day. But I continue in the faith, being taught of God, and denying myself daily. I am no where still, but I know that the Spirit works mightily in me, so I fight the good fight of faith, and press on, to achieve the crown of life, lasting life, because it is real and active. Not something to be toyed with. But it is true life.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Fred V B said:

If you are saved according to real faith you have in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, whose righteousness was for us, dying for us and rising again, it is then the grace of Yahweh God, and you are sealed with his Spirit, you never will be removed, it is his work, things are written that we may know we who have come to him with that real faith have eternal life. There are some passages that some believe to mean they can lose that, but generally those are about keeping or losing blessings. We have assurances written in the Bible for us.

Passages in Hebrews 10 that some take to mean salvation may possibly be lost to those who truly have it are in the epistle written to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected. The passages are about some who receive knowledge of truth, that is, they hear and understand the gospel, it is not speaking necessarily of those who respond in faith ot Christ as their Lord and savior and loving God in return. Those who come to that point of understanding and still trust in observance of Jewish Law for their salvation would insult the gospel of Christ. But the believers with true faith are assured.

1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 2: 4 God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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He has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. But scripture also says to GUARD the good deposit. Why must we guard it, if it can't be lost? So, throw out Hebrews, because it is written only to the Hebrews (in your mind), then we must throw out Acts because it was written to the Acts church, Romans, because it was written to the Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians because it was written to the Corinthians, Galatians, because it was written to Galatians, and so on. All the verses you put up, were written to all the churches, yet you apply those to yourself and others. Now it is only different with ONE book to you, because it doesn't fit what you believe. All of the books in the Bible, were written to all believers, and they all say the same things, I can find many of the same things in Galatians, as I can Hebrews. Does that mean you throw out Galatians as well? No, because this is what God says: 2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It doesn't say the Hebrews of God, or the Galatians of God, it says the man of God, anyone.
Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Just because the books were addressed to different groups, in different places, doesn't mean that they aren't all useful to everyone.

allykelly07 said:

Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Crucifying the Son of God all over again? The son of God by which we are saved? That is much more serious than merely losing rewards. It says go on to maturity, about eternal judgement too.

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Friend if u think this chapter speaks to a believer losing his salvation you need to go back and read this all in context. It tells us believers cant bring other believers to repent and in turn their chastisement will be great (read thru the whole chapter.

simonthezealot said:

Friend if u think this chapter speaks to a believer losing his salvation you need to go back and read this all in context. It tells us believers cant bring other believers to repent and in turn their chastisement will be great (read thru the whole chapter.

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Amen. Well said.

1 John 5:9-13 "9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

allykelly07 said:

I don't understand what you mean by not cut sin?

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Said none of us cut sin any slack. It's a slang term generally meaning none of us really want to have any whatsoever and we tend to be our own harshest critics in this regards by nature. Most believers are like this anyway. Not all.

The only reason I don't agree with people, is because most of the time they don't speak the truth, of what scripture says. What do you think?

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That is a legitimate critique. It's the position not the person. It is factually extremely difficult to be honest with the whole counsel of God by the nature of His Words. For most positions there are counters which will force a person to eventually drop a lot of positions if they want to prioritize scripture first and foremost. The Spirit aids us in these matters. Sometimes we have to start from zero and get rid of all our own impositions if they don't hold water.

Is that to be thought of as wrong, when I don't agree because of the Word of God? Am I now just some young christian, because I refuse to believe something that is not scriptural?

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Not at all. It's expected of us to do our homework.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

God has taught me, and He continues to teach me. Through His word, and by the Spirit. He speaks through me, because I know that in myself, I could never say, or even come up with any of these things. It is by Christ, and Christ alone, that I am able to understand His word, and live by His Spirit, rather than my sinful nature. I have not obtained all that Christ in His fullness is, but I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

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I understand and again agree. Honesty is the best policy when it comes to understanding. The Spirit helps honest people. And same does actually resist the dishonest and will harden them further.

It's not always pretty, to see people be hardened into wrong.

Paul said sin was living in Him. If he said it was dead in him, that would mean we never sin. Sin lives in us, meaning active, our sinful nature.

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Yeah. Paul also had evil present with him and even a devil in his flesh.

That is crucial to understand as it relates to this particular subject matter.

If we are IN Christ Jesus, and He in us, we are all in the same battle, of the sinful nature, and daily, we are choosing to either sow to the Spirit, (dying to ourselves), and reap eternal life, or sow to our flesh, and reap destruction.

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You might take a closer look above. IT is like that as Paul said for himself.
He did evil.
He was the chief of sinners post salvation.

How do you suppose he could be the chief of sinners POST/after salvation? I'm sure there were plenty of replacement killers and various other vile sinners that could have taken that title? Why him?

There is no in between like you say. Less rewards or what not. We get less rewards,

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Paul also indicates that those who have works that do not make it through the fire will suffer loss. That does equate to loss of salvation of them, but of unworthy works. 1 Cor. 3:15

if we begin to sin outwardly, the outward acts. But sinning inwardly, not sowing to the Spirit, and living by the sinful nature, continuing to do that willfully, will reap destruction, just as the verse says. Reap destruction, is not just losing rewards, it says, destruction.

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Sin is a progression from thought (yes sin thought is SIN) then to words, finally to a full fledged slave in deeds. It's all sin though from one end to the other. One can be a vile killer in heart. I consider those who seek to eternally kill other believers or damn them eternally are already practicing a form of killing within them.

I am not making my fellow believers an enemy, I am making sure we know the truth, so that we will all the more persevere in the faith. "Anything, that is not of faith, is sin". So, if we do not persevere in the faith, we will be sinning inwardly against the Spirit, (because faith is unseen), and we will not be saved, because it is by grace through faith, that we are saved.

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Not so. There are plenty of verses that will say the exact opposite. It's just a question of whether you have picked them up, bothered to study them, and then understood them. A couple people have already put up vast amounts of legitimate scripture on these matters. More than enough to convince any serious student. But I also held your current position for quite some time before I rolled up the sleeves and got to work on it.

The only reason I'm even engaging in this conversation is to put the consideration in play for you that it is possible, entirely possible for both positions to be fully true. Had someone shared this with me earlier in my believing life and not when I was in my late 30's I would have appreciated it.

If you see that Paul had evil present. If you see Paul had a devil in his flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7. If you see that Paul's sin was like everyone else's, that being 'of the devil' you might realize there is more than just one party involved with sin, and that other party AIN'T GONNA MAKE IT. That's why this subject is particularly hard to understand. And Paul teaches this fact in many places. I don't usually go there unless God in Christ shows people the simplicities herein and they show they can see the fact of it. Otherwise sharing can actually harden them even worse as there is an internal resistor that takes hold of people who are not honest with the texts.

This whole time, you have been saying that we can't lose our salvation. I don't know why you said you have never said that. This is what you said:

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I never have. Just clarified it again.

All vessels of honor will be saved. All vessels of dishonor, not. Both are in the same lump of our flesh just as Paul shows us.

We are to reign over the other vessel and the workings of sin we factually have.

For another example, when Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan therein there was in fact TWO parties in the flesh/mind of Peter. That was Peter and Satan.

Only one of them was saved. It's a fairly simple observation once seen.

But there is that other party to contend with. It's only God who decides who wills see and who will not. If believers don't see, they too are doing God a service in the judgment of that other working unto damnation, but they will be saved anyway.

enjoy!

squint

Tangible said:

I would say the heart of Lutheran theology is the cross of Christ (thus "Crux sola nostra theologia"), but the proper distinction between Law and Gospel is certainly very important.

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Yes, this is quite true.

DiligentlySeekingGod said:

I was wondering if you could help me better understand this following question. If Jesus did not bear all of our sins and nail them to the cross once and for all, as according to Scripture (Isaiah 53:5-6; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 7:27; 9:21-28; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18), then which of our sins did He die for? The timing of our sins cannot be relevant because they are all in the future from the perspective of the cross.

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Great question.
Anybody?

squint said:

For the 'possible loss' of salvation crowd Paul maybe should revise the above?

For we [are] MIGHT BE, MIGHT NOT BE saved by hope

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Doesn't the idea of free will allow the loss of salvation?

Rick Otto said:

Doesn't the idea of free will allow the loss of salvation?

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Of course. The notion itself brings potential death to believers. In that way it is quite entirely wolfish.

It also turns the Gospel into a sales pitch that must be 'sold to the decider.' This is an angle that the West has polished exceptionally well.

Why not just tell people the truth? Do you know how many freewillers I've dialoged with over the years that will 'truthfully' admit the temptations of the tempter within, yet still claim freewill, not seeing the factual operation of that other entity? It's quite bizarre, that lack of being able to think things through. That's how deception works.

If one realizes their thoughts are potentially always under threat by the enemy who keeps closer guard? The one sitting in lala 'I am free' land or the one who knows they'd better question every thought and action because of potential intrusions and deceptions?

The will that questions everything because of the facts of intrusion is more free because at the least, it is 'in Truth,' scripturally speaking.

And much less prone to be caught up in errors.

Those who see this way will never see the same way again. They tend to divide from evil much faster. Almost instantly.

"And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Iniquity is not on the outside, but the INSIDE. Iniquity is not the people down the street or the bad shows on the TV.

It's INTERNAL.

There is no other way to divide than to be honest about it and realize IT'S NOT US.

s

DiligentlySeekingGod said:

I was wondering if you could help me better understand this following question. If Jesus did not bear all of our sins and nail them to the cross once and for all, as according to Scripture (Isaiah 53:5-6; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 7:27; 9:21-28; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18), then which of our sins did He die for? The timing of our sins cannot be relevant because they are all in the future from the perspective of the cross.

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Rick Otto said:

Great question.
Anybody?

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As I have asked in my post here, what hope do we have outside of the cross of Jesus Christ?

DiligentlySeekingGod said:

As I have asked in my post here, what hope do we have outside of the cross of Jesus Christ?

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The hope is trusting that once one receives the Holy Spirit he or she uses that grace given to him or her to follow the Holy Spirit’s lead. The hope is that one will grow deep roots and bear good fruit.

(Luke 8: 5-8) “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”

simonthezealot said:

Friend if u think this chapter speaks to a believer losing his salvation you need to go back and read this all in context. It tells us believers cant bring other believers to repent and in turn their chastisement will be great (read thru the whole chapter.

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I have read through the whole chapter. It says if anyone, falls away from the faith, there is no sacrifice for sins left, only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire. What do you think that means? It says no sacrifice for sins is left, and they can't be brought back to repentance. It doesn't get much clearer than that. It doesn't say their chastisement will be great, it says that they will have a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire. I don't want this to happen to other believers, or myself, that is why I am telling you these things. Because if we think that we are already good with God because we said one prayer, and we think we don't have to fight the good fight till the end, or run the race with endurance, like scripture says, then we will fall away. Because many scriptures say, "if we do these things, we will never fail", or "run with endurance the race that is set before us", I am sure you know all these verses, and there are many more. Do you think the race is won, if you quit in the middle because it gets too hard? Or do you think that if we don't do those things scripture calls us do do, that we will never fail be cause we don't do them? This is the way scripture speaks, we must continue in the faith, till the end, it's not over just because we say a prayer and accept Jesus. We are called to continue.

squint said:

Said none of us cut sin any slack. It's a slang term generally meaning none of us really want to have any whatsoever and we tend to be our own harshest critics in this regards by nature. Most believers are like this anyway. Not all.


That is a legitimate critique. It's the position not the person. It is factually extremely difficult to be honest with the whole counsel of God by the nature of His Words. For most positions there are counters which will force a person to eventually drop a lot of positions if they want to prioritize scripture first and foremost. The Spirit aids us in these matters. Sometimes we have to start from zero and get rid of all our own impositions if they don't hold water.


Not at all. It's expected of us to do our homework.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I understand and again agree. Honesty is the best policy when it comes to understanding. The Spirit helps honest people. And same does actually resist the dishonest and will harden them further.

It's not always pretty, to see people be hardened into wrong.

Yeah. Paul also had evil present with him and even a devil in his flesh.

That is crucial to understand as it relates to this particular subject matter.

You might take a closer look above. IT is like that as Paul said for himself.
He did evil.
He was the chief of sinners post salvation.

How do you suppose he could be the chief of sinners POST/after salvation? I'm sure there were plenty of replacement killers and various other vile sinners that could have taken that title? Why him?

Paul also indicates that those who have works that do not make it through the fire will suffer loss. That does equate to loss of salvation of them, but of unworthy works. 1 Cor. 3:15

Sin is a progression from thought (yes sin thought is SIN) then to words, finally to a full fledged slave in deeds. It's all sin though from one end to the other. One can be a vile killer in heart. I consider those who seek to eternally kill other believers or damn them eternally are already practicing a form of killing within them.

Not so. There are plenty of verses that will say the exact opposite. It's just a question of whether you have picked them up, bothered to study them, and then understood them. A couple people have already put up vast amounts of legitimate scripture on these matters. More than enough to convince any serious student. But I also held your current position for quite some time before I rolled up the sleeves and got to work on it.

The only reason I'm even engaging in this conversation is to put the consideration in play for you that it is possible, entirely possible for both positions to be fully true. Had someone shared this with me earlier in my believing life and not when I was in my late 30's I would have appreciated it.

If you see that Paul had evil present. If you see Paul had a devil in his flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7. If you see that Paul's sin was like everyone else's, that being 'of the devil' you might realize there is more than just one party involved with sin, and that other party AIN'T GONNA MAKE IT. That's why this subject is particularly hard to understand. And Paul teaches this fact in many places. I don't usually go there unless God in Christ shows people the simplicities herein and they show they can see the fact of it. Otherwise sharing can actually harden them even worse as there is an internal resistor that takes hold of people who are not honest with the texts.

I never have. Just clarified it again.

All vessels of honor will be saved. All vessels of dishonor, not. Both are in the same lump of our flesh just as Paul shows us.

We are to reign over the other vessel and the workings of sin we factually have.

For another example, when Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan therein there was in fact TWO parties in the flesh/mind of Peter. That was Peter and Satan.

Only one of them was saved. It's a fairly simple observation once seen.

But there is that other party to contend with. It's only God who decides who wills see and who will not. If believers don't see, they too are doing God a service in the judgment of that other working unto damnation, but they will be saved anyway.

enjoy!

squint

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But it's not about being honest before we come to Christ, because the Spirit in us, (not we ourselves) makes us honest if we live by the Spirit daily. We are all dishonest, and fruitless without the Spirit and living by Him.

I don't want anyone to fall away, or lose their salvation. That is why I have been pushing this so much. Because if we do not continue in this faith, and do not finish the race, we will not be saved. It's not enough to just say the words, but we must act on them, and do them, by the Spirit. The words becoming real, alive and active in us. "the kingdom of God is not about talk, but of power".

Most of the time, we try to understand every word in scripture with our minds, and be as correct as possible to to His Word. But if we aren't understanding it by the Spirit, and really living by it, we won't ever understand scripture properly, neither will we be applying it to ourselves first, then to others.

Don't you see, that we all should think of ourselves as the chief of all sinners? Scripture says: "you hypocrite! First get the plank out of your own eye first, then you will be able to see clearly the speck in your brothers eye".
That is knowing, that we are worse than they are, and putting them above ourselves, then in true humility, we can go to them out of love, to correct them. We stumble in many ways everyday. Are we better than our brothers? Or should we not think of ourselves as worse, that they might see the humility, and take the correction to heart.

I wish you would tell me what is not so, about what I said, and give me scriptures to refute it. Because that's the only way I will come to the same conclusion you have, if it is true.

Scripture says, that the vessels of dishonor, can cleanse themselves from the latter, and become acceptable to God.

Why don't you admit that this is actually what you said, and stop seemingly riding the fence on this doctrine?

But eternally lost. Uh no. There just is no such animal anywhere in the text laid on New Testament believers. It doesn't exist in the text, period.

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You say things like that all the time, but then you say you never said that.

God has taught me the difference in losing rewards because of outward works, that result in losing rewards, and the inward works, (if we don't continue to live by the Spirit), result in losing our salvation. It's like David, he did many things outwardly that were wrong, but God still had favor on him, because God looked at his heart. Scripture says "God does not look at the things man looks at, God looks at the heart". Even in all the things David did, God still said he was a man after Gods own heart. Outward works, and inward works, they are different. We could do wrong outward things, and still be saved, but if we turn away from the Spirit, and stop sowing to the Spirit, we will not reap eternal life.

Romans 8:23-25
23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

Waiting and hoping for our adoptions as sons. In this hope, we were saved, but hope that is seen is no hope at all, this means that we are not adopted as sons yet. Just as the scripture says in another verse, "To as many as received Him, to them He gave power, to BECOME sons of God.

allykelly07 said:

But it's not about being honest before we come to Christ,

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That's pretty funny there ak. Kinda sad. But funny too.

because the Spirit in us, (not we ourselves) makes us honest if we live by the Spirit daily. We are all dishonest, and fruitless without the Spirit and living by Him.

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Interesting dilemma isn't it?

The fact is we all come before God with a factual evil conscience.

Hebrews 10:22

I don't want anyone to fall away, or lose their salvation. That is why I have been pushing this so much. Because if we do not continue in this faith, and do not finish the race, we will not be saved.

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You don't understand that is already where you are and what you are promoting.

You have an unstable foundation that means you only might be saved and nothing more than that.

It's not enough to just say the words, but we must act on them, and do them, by the Spirit. The words becoming real, alive and active in us. "the kingdom of God is not about talk, but of power".

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Depends on who one might think is doing what.

I never did think I was my own Savior. You?

Most of the time, we try to understand every word in scripture with our minds, and be as correct as possible to to His Word. But if we aren't understanding it by the Spirit, and really living by it, we won't ever understand scripture properly, neither will we be applying it to ourselves first, then to others.

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That's what I was trying to get at with you. And I started with the observations of fact, that Paul was not merely Paul.

Don't you see, that we all should think of ourselves as the chief of all sinners? Scripture says: "you hypocrite! First get the plank out of your own eye first, then you will be able to see clearly the speck in your brothers eye".
That is knowing, that we are worse than they are, and putting them above ourselves, then in true humility, we can go to them out of love, to correct them.

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There is no use only seeing Paul in the equations.

There is even less reason to expect the evil present with Paul or the 'messenger of Satan' in Paul's flesh to 'behave,' straighten up or fly right.

You do not seem to see the other party and have unreasonable demands on the one you don't see because that not only ain't gonna happen, it can't happen.

We stumble in many ways everyday. Are we better than our brothers? Or should we not think of ourselves as worse, that they might see the humility, and take the correction to heart.

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Very simplistic view and notion. Certainly far from an accurate sight.

I wish you would tell me what is not so, about what I said, and give me scriptures to refute it. Because that's the only way I will come to the same conclusion you have, if it is true.

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I have. Many times already. You are not being allowed to see the obvious.

And it's not 'un'common. Particular in newer believers.

Get all the factual parties on the table and then maybe you'll have more accurate sights of the facts?

It might take awhile. It may never happen.

Gods call only.

s

Great post squint.