Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

Giver said:

Thanks for giving me your rationalizations/opinion. It is quite a stretch to compare the verses that I quoted to verses cults may use. Also your remark is a very nasty insult to me.

I was and am personally taught about God by Jesus, and he taught me a Christian does not sin. John tells us that a Christian must walk as Jesus did. So you believe it seems; that Jesus walked as you walk?

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

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So what would you say about my situation?

motherprayer said:

So what would you say about my situation?

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Your situation?

Giver said:

Your situation?

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My response to crimson, which I asked you if you could address later on? I posted it below

I'm trying to figure the sinless thing, really. Partially as a result of real life experience. I don't understand either OSAS OR sinless perfection. They both seem off, for reasons I can't verbalize or explain.

I look at my own life, which is lived in service to God any way I can. I really do my best. I never allow for excuses, and when I mess up, I am always quick to go to the Lord in prayer and ask for forgiveness of my goofs.

Have I lost my salvation a thousand times because I got mad at God, cursed, yelled, felt envy, or pride? I can't see salvation as fluid either though. I love the Lord. He has spoken to me and changed my life. I worship Him, I praise Him.

I ask questions, because they relate to ME. Unlike others here, I don't remember ever directly challenging Giver's sinlessness, only asked for clarification ON IT. And also, other questions, because at the end of my inquiry is one question: Am "I" saved? And more: Did I lose my salvation the first time I cursed after I got baptized? Did I lose my salvation because, after I dedicated my life to the Lord I was living with a man who was not my husband? Was I not saved until I married the man who is my husband now?

Giver said:

Thanks for giving me your rationalizations/opinion. It is quite a stretch to compare the verses that I quoted to verses cults may use. Also your remark is a very nasty insult to me.

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I'm not comparing those verses with cult origins, I'm saying that the misuse of verses in isolation gives an incomplete and sometimes misleading impression of the truth. Cults have done the same with different verses.

As for my "nasty insult", what part of you is offended? Is your self-image damaged? I was rather hoping you'd forgive me instantly, with a loving smile. Better still, ignore it completely. Are you trying to make me feel bad? Is that Godly?

Giver said:

I was and am personally taught about God by Jesus, and he taught me a Christian does not sin. John tells us that a Christian must walk as Jesus did. So you believe it seems; that Jesus walked as you walk?

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Giver said:

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

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No. I don't believe that Jesus walked as I walk. I would like to walk as He walked, and I try to, but in no way do I consider myself His equal.

How 'bout you?

And when you've answered that, can you move a mountain or was Jesus a liar?

crimsonleaf said:

I'm not comparing those verses with cult origins, I'm saying that the misuse of verses in isolation gives an incomplete and sometimes misleading impression of the truth. Cults have done the same with different verses.

As for my "nasty insult", what part of you is offended? Is your self-image damaged? I was rather hoping you'd forgive me instantly, with a loving smile. Better still, ignore it completely. Are you trying to make me feel bad? Is that Godly?



No. I don't believe that Jesus walked as I walk. I would like to walk as He walked, and I try to, but in no way do I consider myself His equal.

How 'bout you?

And when you've answered that, can you move a mountain or was Jesus a liar?

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Yes I walk as Jesus walked, because God has made a home in me, and I am told and given the grace to walk as Jesus leads me.

I pray every day to have faith to move a mountain. Do you know praying for some one to accept and follow Jesus can be a big mountain? That person walking into the sea to be baptized is bigger than having some earth move into the sea.

I also believe that if I asked Jesus to move a literal mountain into the sea he would do it for me. I would never pray for a mountain to move unless Jesus led me to do so. If Jesus told me to pray for a mountain to move it would move.

You see I pray for God’s will to be done here on earth as it is in heaven. Not my will or Satan’s will but God’s will.

Hyperbole is not very hard to recognize, but asking Jesus how to understand what he told, and tells us is the only true way one can ever understand fully what he wants his Words to convey.

Giver said:

Yes I walk as Jesus walked, because God has made a home in me, and I am told and given the grace to walk as Jesus leads me.

I pray every day to have faith to move a mountain. Do you know praying for some one to accept and follow Jesus can be a big mountain? That person walking into the sea to be baptized is bigger than having some earth move into the sea.

I also believe that if I asked Jesus to move a literal mountain into the sea he would do it for me. I would never pray for a mountain to move unless Jesus led me to do so. If Jesus told me to pray for a mountain to move it would move.

You see I pray for God’s will to be done here on earth as it is in heaven. Not my will or Satan’s will but God’s will.

Hyperbole is not very hard to recognize, but asking Jesus how to understand what he told, and tells us is the only true way one can ever understand fully what he wants his Words to convey.

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I've never met Jesus the human, and I guess you're the closest I'll ever get. Shame there's so much water between us; it would have been a blast.

Good luck with the mountain thing.

motherprayer said:

I'm trying to figure the sinless thing, really. Partially as a result of real life experience. I don't understand either OSAS OR sinless perfection. They both seem off, for reasons I can't verbalize or explain.

I look at my own life, which is lived in service to God any way I can. I really do my best. I never allow for excuses, and when I mess up, I am always quick to go to the Lord in prayer and ask for forgiveness of my goofs.

Have I lost my salvation a thousand times because I got mad at God, cursed, yelled, felt envy, or pride? I can't see salvation as fluid either though. I love the Lord. He has spoken to me and changed my life. I worship Him, I praise Him.

I ask questions, because they relate to ME. Unlike others here, I don't remember ever directly challenging Giver's sinlessness, only asked for clarification ON IT. And also, other questions, because at the end of my inquiry is one question: Am "I" saved? And more: Did I lose my salvation the first time I cursed after I got baptized? Did I lose my salvation because, after I dedicated my life to the Lord I was living with a man who was not my husband? Was I not saved until I married the man who is my husband now?

Click to expand...

I believe there is an indwelling of God that is much more then just walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I believe that one can have the Holy Spirit, do miracles, heal people, and deliver people of evil spirits, but not yet be a temple of God.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


Jesus told us; that to love him we need to live his whole Word. Jesus said after one proves he or she loves him he and the Father would make a home in that person.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

We are given the Holy Spirit and he will teach and give one the grace to live the whole Word of God. Until a person lives the Word of God, I believe they are still infants in Christ. I also believe infants in Christ are going to be judged as all people who never knew God.

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and
you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you,
so you must stay in him.”

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

(Galations 5:13-26)”For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. [bless and do not curse]I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. [bless and do not curse]If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.”[bless and do not curse]

If you are saved according to real faith you have in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, whose righteousness was for us, dying for us and rising again, it is then the grace of Yahweh God, and you are sealed with his Spirit, you never will be removed, it is his work, things are written that we may know we who have come to him with that real faith have eternal life. There are some passages that some believe to mean they can lose that, but generally those are about keeping or losing blessings. We have assurances written in the Bible for us.

Passages in Hebrews 10 that some take to mean salvation may possibly be lost to those who truly have it are in the epistle written to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected. The passages are about some who receive knowledge of truth, that is, they hear and understand the gospel, it is not speaking necessarily of those who respond in faith ot Christ as their Lord and savior and loving God in return. Those who come to that point of understanding and still trust in observance of Jewish Law for their salvation would insult the gospel of Christ. But the believers with true faith are assured.

1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our
sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 2: 4 God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

squint said:

We 'might' be saved is quite funny theology.

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Saint Paul thought folk ought to hope, he wrote, For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
(Romans 8:24-25)

Scripture clearly states that it is God who searches out, calls, gathers, enlightens, saves and preserves us in the one true faith. It is He who leaves behind the 99 to search out the one lost sheep, no one can snatch us out of his hand, and nothing can separate us from his love.

Scripture also clearly states that it is possible for us, once saved, to fall away, to fall from grace, to allow the seed of faith to be stolen away, and to have our faith choked out by the cares of this world.

Both are there. Both are true. The first is sweet Gospel. The second is a harsh word of Law. They are different words in different categories, not to be confused but rightly divided.

The Bible clearly says that Grace is irresistible, and that we can resist it.

Tangible said:

Scripture clearly states that it is God who searches out, calls, gathers, enlightens, saves and preserves us in the one true faith. It is He who leaves behind the 99 to search out the one lost sheep, no one can snatch us out of his hand, and nothing can separate us from his love.

Scripture also clearly states that it is possible for us, once saved, to fall away, to fall from grace, to allow the seed of faith to be stolen away, and to have our faith choked out by the cares of this world.

Both are there. Both are true. The first is sweet Gospel. The second is a harsh word of Law. They are different words in different categories, not to be confused but rightly divided.

The Bible clearly says that Grace is irresistible, and that we can resist it.

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Scripture clearly states that a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Going Merry said:

I have different thinking. Jesus' sacrifice is the forgiveness, and it's already been done. If someone believes, they are already covered because he has already been forgiven. Future sins included, and i would like to say we are all in the future so.. what we have done was also paid for? Yes future sins

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Giver said:

Scripture clearly states that a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

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And Scripture CLEARLY states that IF you sin, you have an advocate
In Jesus Christ.

So now what?
Well you need to "rightly divide" now.

God said both, so we need to find out why it SEEMS
to contradict itself. (Scripture must not break Scripture)

Tangible said:

Scripture clearly states that it is God who searches out, calls, gathers, enlightens, saves and preserves us in the one true faith. It is He who leaves behind the 99 to search out the one lost sheep, no one can snatch us out of his hand, and nothing can separate us from his love.

Scripture also clearly states that it is possible for us, once saved, to fall away, to fall from grace, to allow the seed of faith to be stolen away, and to have our faith choked out by the cares of this world.

Both are there. Both are true. The first is sweet Gospel. The second is a harsh word of Law. They are different words in different categories, not to be confused but rightly divided.

The Bible clearly says that Grace is irresistible, and that we can resist it.

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I'm not confident about the adroit divisions between Law and Gospel you've made in the above post. Can you justify them?

sunlover1 said:

And Scripture CLEARLY states that IF you sin, you have an advocate
In Jesus Christ.

So now what?
Well you need to "rightly divide" now.

God said both, so we need to find out why it SEEMS
to contradict itself. (Scripture must not break Scripture)

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A spiritual Christian may have an advocate in heaven, but does not need one because he or she does not sin.

Infants in Christ still sin and they need an advocate to plead for them.

Read the rest of the post and see what I believe makes for a spiritual Christian.


I believe there is an indwelling of God that is much more then just walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I believe that one can have the Holy Spirit, do miracles, heal people, and deliver people of evil spirits, but not yet be a temple of God.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


Jesus told us; that to love him we need to live his whole Word. Jesus said after one proves he or she loves him he and the Father would make a home in that person.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

We are given the Holy Spirit and he will teach and give one the grace to live the whole Word of God. Until a person lives the Word of God, I believe they are still infants in Christ. I also believe infants in Christ are going to be judged as all people who never knew God.

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and
you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you,
so you must stay in him.”

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”

sunlover1 said:

And Scripture CLEARLY states that IF you sin, you have an advocate
In Jesus Christ.

So now what?
Well you need to "rightly divide" now.

God said both, so we need to find out why it SEEMS
to contradict itself. (Scripture must not break Scripture)

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I was wondering if you could help me better understand this following question. If Jesus did not bear all of our sins and nail them to the cross once and for all, as according to Scripture (Isaiah 53:5-6; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 7:27; 9:21-28; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18), then which of our sins did He die for? The timing of our sins cannot be relevant because they are all in the future from the perspective of the cross.

MoreCoffee said:

I'm not confident about the adroit divisions between Law and Gospel you've made in the above post. Can you justify them?

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God's Law is everything God expects of us, requires of us, and demands of us. If we were capable of living according to God's perfect law we would be righteous in God's sight and have eternal life. Sadly, we are incapable of keeping the Law, and thus the Law brings only condemnation and death to us, as we are conceived in sin and born imperfect into an imperfect, fallen world. God's perfect, good and salutary Law is incapable of producing within us the righteousness it demands.

God's word of condemnation of sin is Law. It is bad news for we who are sinful and who constantly sin. It is bad news for those who, once gifted with saving faith, foolishly reject and abandon that faith and again come under condemnation.

The Good News, the Gospel, is everything that God has done for us and for our salvation. In Jesus Christ he was born perfect, lived a perfect life, and yet died to atone for the sins of the world. In Christ the standard of perfection was achieved, and now, by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, God now covers our sins with the righteousness of Christ and imputes to us a righteousness not our own, and alien righteousness that we did nothing to earn, merit or achieve.

God's word of Gospel is the power of salvation to those who believe and produces within us the righteousness required by the Law, not through works done under the law, but by the gift of faith given us freely by God through the means of grace - God's Word of Absolution proclaimed, God's Word in and with the water of Holy Baptism, and God's Word in, with, and under bread and wine in the Sacrament of the Altar, delivering to us in our bodies the very price of our redemption, the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hentenza said:

EVERY single verse that you misuse here to attempt to prove the prefectionism of mankind has been soundly refuted many, many times before. And yet you continue to be obstinate. What you preach is the sufficiency of man which negates the need for God. There is no one sinless (except Christ), none, ALL need a savior, including you.

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Uh when has it ever been refuted again? No one has even given me a reason to consider the possibility that I still have sin. They just blow me off.

MoreCoffee said:

Saint Paul thought folk ought to hope, he wrote, For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
(Romans 8:24-25)

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For the 'possible loss' of salvation crowd Paul maybe should revise the above?

For we [are] MIGHT BE, MIGHT NOT BE saved by hope

Tangible said:

God's Law is everything God expects of us, requires of us, and demands of us. If we were capable of living according to God's perfect law we would be righteous in God's sight and have eternal life. Sadly, we are incapable of keeping the Law, and thus the Law brings only condemnation and death to us, as we are conceived in sin and born imperfect into an imperfect, fallen world. God's perfect, good and salutary Law is incapable of producing within us the righteousness it demands.

God's word of condemnation of sin is Law. It is bad news for we who are sinful and who constantly sin. It is bad news for those who, once gifted with saving faith, foolishly reject and abandon that faith and again come under condemnation.

The Good News, the Gospel, is everything that God has done for us and for our salvation. In Jesus Christ he was born perfect, lived a perfect life, and yet died to atone for the sins of the world. In Christ the standard of perfection was achieved, and now, by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, God now covers our sins with the righteousness of Christ and imputes to us a righteousness not our own, and alien righteousness that we did nothing to earn, merit or achieve.

God's word of Gospel is the power of salvation to those who believe and produces within us the righteousness required by the Law, not through works done under the law, but by the gift of faith given us freely by God through the means of grace - God's Word of Absolution proclaimed, God's Word in and with the water of Holy Baptism, and God's Word in, with, and under bread and wine in the Sacrament of the Altar, delivering to us in our bodies the very price of our redemption, the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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I am even less confident of the adroit divisions between Law and Gospel in the above post than I was of them in the last post.