Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
After you saying 'The wrath of God is upon whoever Jesus says it’s upon because He paid the price' there is not much point of a debate. I gave plenty Biblical evidence that shows Christ died and redeemed only His elect, that salvation is of God alone, and that salvation cannot be lost. Your wrong inerpretation of 'I will lose none my Father gave me' does not prove otherwise.

I’ll ask again why is the outcome of the tree in Luke 13:6-9 still uncertain despite Jesus’ efforts to save it?

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I asked you this in the other thread and you never responded.

Clare73 · Mar 23, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
I’ll ask again why is the outcome of the tree in Luke 13:6-9 still uncertain despite Jesus’ efforts to save it?

The parable is about the Jews, upon whom God waited patiently for repentance of rejecting Christ.

The time is uncertain because they had future time to repent, until the destruction of Jerusalem when the hammer was dropped.

BNR32FAN said:
“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I asked you this in the other thread and you never responded.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
To understand the verse you mention, we must look at the context. Starting from verse 11.
Paul in verse 11 acknowledges that, because we have died together with Christ, we will live together with Him. We will enjoy life everlasting with Christ. Paul states this as fact. This is not merely an “if” but a “since.” It is a fact that we have died together , and it is a certainty that in the future we will live together with Christ.

No that’s not what Paul said and that’s not the definition of the Greek word Ei. Ei is a conditional conjunction.

1487 ei (a conditional conjunction) – if. 1487/ei (followed by any verb) expresses "a condition, thought of as real, or to denote assumptions" (i.e. viewed as factual. for the sake of argument) (BAGD). Accordingly, 1487 (ei) should not be translated "since," but rather always "if" – since the assumption may only be portrayed as valid (true, factual)

The Greek word translated to since is Hoti.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Clare73 said:
The parable is about the Jews, upon whom God waited patiently for repentance of rejecting Christ.

It’s completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that Jesus was trying to save them and their outcome is still uncertain.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Next, Paul encourages believers that, since we are enduring, then we will reign together with Him and each other. As John explained it in Revelation, believers overcome through Christ who has Himself overcome.

Again you’re changing what is actually written. The word Hoti is not used in that statement. He said IF not SINCE. You can’t go changing the words to make it say what you want it to.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
2 Timothy 2:12b changes the tense of the (protasis) action from present to future, rendering the first part of the couplet, “if we deny in the future.” If there is such a denial, then He will also deny us. Jesus used similar terminology when He explained that, if people denied Him before men, He would deny them before the Father. It is important to note that Jesus was talking to His twelve disciples. He explains that the Spirit would be speaking through them, and He warns them of the need to be faithful in confessing Him before men and not denying Him—He is challenging them to be faithful messengers for Him. There was reward for confessing Him before men, and consequences for denying Him before men. (Read Matthew 10).

I have read Matthew 10. I gave a detailed explanation of Matthew 10 in my video on 2 Timothy 2:12 where Jesus told the twelve DO NOT FEAR THOSE WHO ARE ABLE TO KILL THE BODY BUT FEAR HIM WHO IS ABLE TO KILL BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

Clare73 · Mar 23, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
It’s completely irrelevant, the fact still remains that Jesus was trying to save them and their outcome is still uncertain.

The outcome for all those who reject Christ, including the Jews, is certain.

Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever who does not believe stands condemned already (by the law). (Jn 3:18).

There are no exceptions.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
When Paul says that Jesus will deny us, he is not talking about loss of salvation or change in positional standing before God. Much like Jesus warned His twelve disciples, Paul reminds Timothy that there are consequences to unfaithfulness in ministry. Paul had explained earlier in this context the importance of engaging like a good soldier, an athlete competing according to the rules, and a hard-working farmer

Colossians 1:21-23 says the same thing that 2 Timothy 2:12 says.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Colossians 1:21-23 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blamel | New American Standard Bible

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blamel

bible.com

Being presented before the Father holy, blameless, and beyond reproach is contingent upon our remaining steadfast in our faith in the gospel. What you’re saying is the Jesus will present us before The Father holy, blameless, and beyond reproach REGARDLESS of whether we remain steadfast in our faith in the gospel which is the exact opposite of what Paul wrote in both Colossians 1:23 and 2 Timothy 2:12.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Clare73 said:
IF does not necessarily

I quoted Biblehub.com. Ei is never translated as since. If you disagree I challenge you to present a verse to support your claim.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Clare73 said:
IF does not necessarily

The outcome for all those who reject Christ, including the Jews, is quite certain.

He who believes in the Son is saved, he who does not is condemned already (Jn 3:18).

There are no exceptions.

You still haven’t addressed the fact that Jesus is trying to save them.

Ivan Hlavanda · Mar 23, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
I have read Matthew 10. I gave a detailed explanation of Matthew 10 in my video on 2 Timothy 2:12 where Jesus told the twelve DO NOT FEAR THOSE WHO ARE ABLE TO KILL THE BODY BUT FEAR HIM WHO IS ABLE TO KILL BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

Just because you give an explanation of something, does not make it right.

Keep relying on yourself for salvation. I'll rely only on Christ and His perfect work on the cross for salvation. It is done. Christ paid and redeemed me. Christ reconciled me to God and He will not lose me, and nothing will separate me from the love of God, that's His promise to His children, who have been sealed by the Holy Spirot

Woe to those who reject God's grace and rely on themselves to get to Heaven.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

SavedByGrace3 said:
Those who are genuine (and have been from the start) remain. Those who leave are not and never were. Pretty simple.

1 John 2:19 KJV
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2 Timothy 2:12 proves that interpretation wrong, unless you think that Paul and Timothy weren’t true believers when Paul wrote that. Oh and James 5:19-20 also proves that interpretation wrong as well. In 1 John 2:19 John is referring to a specific group of people. Nowhere does he refer to any or every person who turns away from Christ. According to your interpretation of 1 John 2:19 Paul’s statement “if we deny Him, He will deny us” is a direct contradiction of that interpretation. Just like James 5:19-20 “if one of the brethren strays from the truth and a brother turns him back he will save his soul from death”. Again this statement contradicts your interpretation of 1 John 2:19.

Clare73 · Mar 23, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
You still haven’t addressed the fact that Jesus is trying to save them.

Does that not apply to all mankind?

And does not Jn 3:18 also apply to all mankind?

Why the carve out for the Jews?

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Just because you give an explanation of something, does not make it right.

Keep relying on yourself for salvation. I'll rely only on Christ and His perfect work on the cross for salvation. It is done. Christ paid and redeemed me. Christ reconciled me to God and He will not lose me, and nothing will separate me from the love of God, that's His promise to His children, who have been sealed by the Holy Spirot

Woe to those who reject God's grace and rely on themselves to get to Heaven.

Then why did Jesus tell them to fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell? Did He tell them that knowing that The Father would never do such a thing because that wouldn’t make any sense to make that statement if The Father would never do such a thing.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Clare73 said:
Does that not apply to all mankind?

Yes I do believe it applies to all mankind, you said it only applied to Jews.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Just because you give an explanation of something, does not make it right.

Keep relying on yourself for salvation. I'll rely only on Christ and His perfect work on the cross for salvation. It is done. Christ paid and redeemed me. Christ reconciled me to God and He will not lose me, and nothing will separate me from the love of God, that's His promise to His children, who have been sealed by the Holy Spirot

Woe to those who reject God's grace and rely on themselves to get to Heaven.

Now you’re making up verses that aren’t in the scriptures in order to support your false accusations?

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Clare73 said:
Does that not apply to all mankind?

And does not Jn 3:18 also apply to all mankind?

Why the carve out for the Jews?

What do you mean by “carve out”?

Clare73 · Mar 23, 2025

BNR32FAN said:
Yes I do believe it applies to all mankind, you said it only applied to Jews.

Read post #74 again.

BNR32FAN · Mar 23, 2025

Clare73 said:
Where did I say Jesus is trying to save only the Jews?

Clare73 said:
The parable is about the Jews, upon whom God waited patiently for repentance of rejecting Christ.

Clare73 · Mar 23, 2025

Clare73 said:
Where did I say Jesus is trying to save only the Jews?

Clare73 said:
The parable is about the Jews, upon whom God waited patiently for repentance of rejecting Christ

That's not a statement that he is trying to save only the Jews. . .

That's a statement that this particular parable is about the Jews.

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

He’s a Way of life

Blood-bought

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Blood-bought

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Well-Known Member

He’s a Way of life

Blood-bought

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Blood-bought

He’s a Way of life

Blood-bought

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency