Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

MikeEnders said:
So umm you can not be saved in regard to sin but justified? So kind of saved and lost at the same time? Sorry but people are making up things left and right in this thread. Imagination is more what this thread is about now than it is the Bible

Lol. Ok, well allow me to explain. You can be justified but still left in sin, if you persist in willful sin and persist in unbelief toward God in relying on his righteousness. This is quite clear from the scriptures and from experience. This is why Paul can say in Romans 6 that we HAVE died to sin and HAVE been raised with Christ (past tense) yet at the same time say that we should not sin and remind us that the wages of sin is death. (This is not eternal death - remember, Jesus defines eternal life in John 17:3 as knowing God and knowing Christ.) There's nothing imaginative about admitting the scriptural and experiential reality that Christians who believe in Jesus can sin and can be caught up in addictive sin. Therefore, Christians can be justified (saved) but not live in their sanctification (fully saved).

The scriptures in 1 John have to do with promises, just in case you're thinking of bringing those in .

MikeEnders said:
That passage [1 Cor 3:15] says no such thing. We are just in full makeup a scripture mode. It says our work and ministry for Christ will be evaluated not a thing about "falling away, living in sin or no longer walking with Christ.

So sanctification has nothing to do with work and ministry? Sin does not affect our work and ministry? What's interesting is that in verse 16 Paul immediately speaks of us being a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 3:15
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

It seems to me that this scripture has to do with rewards for work, and that work has to do with holiness, and that when it says "God will destroy him" that relates to "he himself will be saved, but only as through fire," which means that one can build a strong case that 'destruction' does not always mean eternal death in the scriptures - which sure changes those warning scriptures!

As an aside - given that it's been hundreds of years that this conversation goes on and on and on, it's time for us all to be a little more humble and find a way to resolve the issue for the future - find a way in which both the warnings and the scriptures that clearly speak of security can be put together. This way would surely be the most faithful to scripture.

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

fatherjimparker said:
OSAS, in the light of Paul's urging, is the height of immaturity. If someone had said to Paul, "I'm saved. I don't have to do anything." I would not be surprised if Paul slapped him.

He might have, but not because he doesn't believe that this person is saved, but because they're are abusing their salvation by never doing anything, and doing this could lead them to lose all the other promises God wants to give them.

fatherjimparker said:
Who do you know who has done as much as Paul? Yet multitudes have been taught that they need no nothing and have a guarantee of eternal life because they said a sincere sinner's prayer.

Hogwash.

Have you done as much as Paul?

fatherjimparker said:
Paul offers you that "yardstick." I posted it for you. When you have done as much as Paul and can look back over your life and say "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. " You can call that a yard.

Without that yardstick, using the "OSAS rule", we can safely conclude that Hitler is worshiping before the throne right now because, as a youth, he was a saved, devout Christian.

Are you saying that we all need to plant as many churches as Paul did, write amazing letters full of theology, and the like? Surely Paul's life cannot be a yardstick? And where's all the stuff that Jesus said in this 'yardstick'? Making justification about "fighting the good fight and keeping the faith" sounds like an impossible yardstick to measure. How do you know you fought enough? How do you know you kept the faith enough? How do you know God is happy with your work? Where's the Gospel in all this?

What this sounds like to me is someone who has never had to deal with the pain of addictive sin in their life, or ever had to deal with making a serious mistake. I tip my hat to you that you have such fantastic willpower, but some of us weren't born in perfect homes or have been able to have such perfect willpower. I'm glad that you're such a winner in life. But thankfully God doesn't measure us by our ability and willpower but by the life and death and resurrection of Christ, and thankfully that's how scripture speaks about it. If addiction ever comes into your life (and pray it never does) you'll soon find that such yardsticks are impossible to live up to and that the Gospel (the one that has grace) is the best news you've ever heard. What you're presenting here is just another willpower religion, no better than stoic philosophy or Pelagianism or modern pop-psychology that says, "You can do it! You are able to do all things if you just believe in yourself!" with a perfect, twinkling smile.

I'm sorry if this is too strong, but consider what you're presenting closely - is there any way you can say that such a view isn't Pelagian or isn't just another version of the myriad of works-based religions and philosophies out there? You can't be double-minded. Either the Gospel really is about grace with work happening because of grace, or it's not. It's not grace only if you work enough! That's not grace!

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
Do you still know this kid? He's your son. You knew him once. Do you know this new person he's become?

The prodigal son parable? Don't see the father there saying "I don't know you. Begone from me."

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
The prodigal son parable? Don't see the father there saying "I don't know you. Begone from me."

You don't see Marvin's name there either. The prodigal son parable is about God, not Marvin. And the example I gave was in reference to his statement about once knew someone and now no longer knows him.

Keep in mind in the parable, the son repented and turned. Anyone under OSAS doesn't repent with a false belief they're always saved forever.

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
You don't see Marvin's name there either. The prodigal son parable is about God, not Marvin. And the example I gave was in reference to his statement about once knew someone and now no longer knows him.

Yeah but it's in reference to Jesus saying "I never knew you" in Matthew 7, is it not?

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
Yeah but it's in reference to Jesus saying "I never knew you" in Matthew 7, is it not?

Matthew Twentyfour said:
Keep in mind in the parable, the son repented and turned. Anyone under OSAS doesn't repent with a false belief they're always saved forever.

Luke 15:21-24 NKJV
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
Yeah but it's in reference to Jesus saying "I never knew you" in Matthew 7, is it not?

Luke 13:23-27 NKJV
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

This scripture right here settles the debate of OSAS. Christ said many will try to enter the narrow gate, and will not make it. These are Christians, many will not make it in.

OSAS is completely false!

Luke 8:11-15 NKJV
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

This scripture confirms Luke 13:23-27. Many Christians not sowing good fruit.

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
Luke 15:21-24 NKJV
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

Ah, but you see he was still a son even when he was out there, and he was never considered as anything else as a son. Repenting brought him back into his inheritance, even though he had squandered the inheritance he had, but repenting didn't mean he was now a son again - he was always a son. So much so that the father was looking out for him!

Look at how this section builds up. First it's a lost sheep and the father goes looking for the sheep. The sheep is still his own sheep and there's nothing there that talks of the sheep ever being anyone else's. Then the lost coin - the coin remains her coin. Then of course the prodigal son. Repentance is mentioned in all three cases, yes, but in all three cases the people / things mentioned always still belong to the person who had them, even when they're lost.

The Prodigal son himself thought that he was no longer worthy to be called a son (as you quoted above) but the father would have none of that.

Of course, don't forget the older brother, who thought this was grossly unfair. We often think it's unfair, don't we? Surely people who've walked away ought to be punished somehow? Surely they can't just come back and still be a son? Surely they aren't a son when they're lost? But the father wants none of that. We're sons even when we're lost because a son is a son and will always be a son. Your son will always be your son, even if he walks away from you. When father's tell their sons, "You're no longer my son," they're being hard and stubborn - but nevertheless, nothing can change the fact that your son is your son - he is from you, from your body, and carries your blood in his veins. This is why I think Jesus uses the idea of a 'son' in this parable and not a hired hand or something like that.

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
Luke 13:23-27 NKJV
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

This scripture right here settles the debate of OSAS. Christ said many will try to enter the narrow gate, and will not make it. These are Christians, many will not make it in.

OSAS is completely false!

No, it doesn't. It's about Israel.

"When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’"

This is about Jesus - he rose and then shut the door, and Israel stands outside saying, "But you, Jesus, taught in our streets!" and he will say, "I don't know you." This is a powerful warning to Israel. It is a warning to us, as well, as God can shut the door on the church just as he did to Israel. But thus far he has not done so. Just after this Jesus laments over Jerusalem and says, "Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (verse 35.)

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
Ah, but you see he was still a son even when he was out there, and he was never considered as anything else as a son. Repenting brought him back into his inheritance, even though he had squandered the inheritance he had, but repenting didn't mean he was now a son again - he was always a son. So much so that the father was looking out for him!

Look at how this section builds up. First it's a lost sheep and the father goes looking for the sheep. The sheep is still his own sheep and there's nothing there that talks of the sheep ever being anyone else's. Then the lost coin - the coin remains her coin. Then of course the prodigal son. Repentance is mentioned in all three cases, yes, but in all three cases the people / things mentioned always still belong to the person who had them, even when they're lost.

The Prodigal son himself thought that he was no longer worthy to be called a son (as you quoted above) but the father would have none of that.

Of course, don't forget the older brother, who thought this was grossly unfair. We often think it's unfair, don't we? Surely people who've walked away ought to be punished somehow? Surely they can't just come back and still be a son? Surely they aren't a son when they're lost? But the father wants none of that. We're sons even when we're lost because a son is a son and will always be a son. Your son will always be your son, even if he walks away from you. When father's tell their sons, "You're no longer my son," they're being hard and stubborn - but nevertheless, nothing can change the fact that your son is your son - he is from you, from your body, and carries your blood in his veins. This is why I think Jesus uses the idea of a 'son' in this parable and not a hired hand or something like that.

It doesn't matters. You can type up 10 pages of human reasoning why you should go to heaven as a perpetual sinner and still fall short against the word of God in the bible, where it counts. If anyone continues to sin and does not come to repentance, salvation is null and void.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
No, it doesn't. It's about Israel.

"When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’"

This is about Jesus - he rose and then shut the door, and Israel stands outside saying, "But you, Jesus, taught in our streets!" and he will say, "I don't know you." This is a powerful warning to Israel. It is a warning to us, as well, as God can shut the door on the church just as he did to Israel. But thus far he has not done so. Just after this Jesus laments over Jerusalem and says, "Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (verse 35.)

You still failed.

The Israelites are still under the law and have not accepted Christ yet.

Strike 3, you're out!

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
You still failed.

The Israelites are still under the law and have not accepted Christ yet.

Strike 3, you're out!

Lol, when guys have this kind of attitude then I'm not even going to bother to have any more discussion. I'm not here to win but to find the best way to uphold the scriptures. There are scriptures which are clear about eternal security, and scriptures which are clear about salvation being lost. So how does one uphold both? That's my mission and I think I'm on the road to doing that - you do not lose your justification but you lose plenty of other things in your salvation, and your eternal reward. Those commentators who take this point of view make the most sense of all these warning scriptures. If we want to build a stronger church we need to find a way to resolve this conversation, and there is a way in which both doctrines can be brought together and the scriptures are dealt with more properly.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
Lol, when guys have this kind of attitude then I'm not even going to bother to have any more discussion. I'm not here to win but to find the best way to uphold the scriptures.

You're not upholding any scriptures, you're making fabrications adding into what the bible clearly states. Read what it said. What Israelite do you know are currently trying to enter the narrow gate?

ONLY CHRISTIANS seek to enter the narrow gate. The narrow gate is in the new testament.

Luke 13:23-27
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say,‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

Again, as Christ said above, many Christians will not make it. OSAS is obvious a fallacy based on this scripture.

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

Man, some people. When caught with their pants down, the best they can say is the dog ate it.

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
You're not upholding any scriptures, you're making fabrications adding into what the bible clearly states. Read what it said. What Israelite do you know are currently trying to enter the narrow gate?

Some. And when they do, they become Christian, because the Hebrew way and the Law is no longer the way - rather, Jesus is the way. And thus, Jesus' point. After the verses you quoted above Jesus says, "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

Who is the 'you yourselves'? It is clearly Israel - that's why he says that when they see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the prophets there, and not themselves, they will realise they were wrong because they should be in with their forefathers but aren't! Thus they should ask, "Why?" It is not by blood, but by Jesus, that you are in the Kingdom. Remember how John the Baptist said that Israel being sons of Abraham by blood cannot save them, but that God could raise up sons of Abraham from rocks? The point is this: God is bringing in something new, when all people will be welcome in, and not just Israel, and it will not be based on law but on Christ. This is all prophetic stuff pointing to the church. That's an NT theme again and again. God raised up sons of Abraham not by blood but now by Jesus, and in him is his church, the chosen people of God. This is a persistent theme in the Gospels.

Then, after this, Jesus laments over Jerusalem -- "Behold, your house is forsaken," he says about Jerusalem. (Verse 35.) And they will not see Christ until they acknowledge that he IS the Lord -- 'And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

HatGuy · Jul 24, 2015

Here's Paul's version of what's going on there:
"6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
Some. And when they do, they become Christian, because the Hebrew way and the Law is no longer the way - rather, Jesus is the way. And thus, Jesus' point. After the verses you quoted above Jesus says, "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

Who is the 'you yourselves'? It is clearly Israel - that's why he says that when they see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the prophets there, and not themselves, they will realise they were wrong because they should be in with their forefathers but aren't! Thus they should ask, "Why?" It is not by blood, but by Jesus, that you are in the Kingdom. Remember how John the Baptist said that Israel being sons of Abraham by blood cannot save them, but that God could raise up sons of Abraham from rocks? The point is this: God is bringing in something new, when all people will be welcome in, and not just Israel, and it will not be based on law but on Christ. This is all prophetic stuff pointing to the church. That's an NT theme again and again. God raised up sons of Abraham not by blood but now by Jesus, and in him is his church, the chosen people of God. This is a persistent theme in the Gospels.

Then, after this, Jesus laments over Jerusalem -- "Behold, your house is forsaken," he says about Jerusalem. (Verse 35.) And they will not see Christ until they acknowledge that he IS the Lord -- 'And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Practical Problems With OSAS

August 29, 2013, posted by Matthew Murphy

Note: It should be obvious from the content of the post, but the version of OSAS that I am arguing against in this post is what has been termed by some as the ‘Alpha View’. It is the view that a singular moment of faith is enough to guarantee an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our God, no matter what; no matter how you live after you initially place your faith in Christ, your salvation will never be in jeopardy. Two notable proponents of this view are R. T. Kendall and Charles Stanley.

<Staff Edit>

http://evangelicalarminians.org/practical-problems-with-osas/

Luke 13:23-27
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say,‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

OSAS refuted in Luke 13:23-27

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
Here's Paul's version of what's going on there:
"6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

Luke 13:23-27
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say,‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

OSAS refuted in Luke 13:23-27

FreeGrace2 · Jul 24, 2015

I said this:
"Sorry you missed my YES answer.
How about let's remove those silly quotes around saved. If one is saved, then he is saved. Not "saved". Seems your sensibilities are offended by one of God's children doing such things."

fatherjimparker said:
I use those "silly" quotes around your use of the word "saved" because the meaning you attach to the word is silly.

I think your opinion is silly. The Greek word, which has the operative meaning, is to deliver from, or rescue. And the word has a number of connotations. We are saved from (delivered from, rescued from):
1. in the past tense, from the penalty of sin - justification
2. in the present tense, from the power of sin - sanctification
3. in the future tense, from the presence of sin - glorification

Which of these points is there disagreement?

Are you saved if you go back to your sinful ways? No.[/QJUOTE]
The Bible NEVER says or even suggests that lifestyle removes one's salvation.

God's children are not murderers, thieves, etc.

1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

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So, this is your proof text? There is a parallel passage in Eph 5:5 but speaks of having no inheritance IN the kingdom. They are parallel. So, to not inherit the kingdom is equivalent to having no inheritance IN the kingdom.

Further, let's consider Col 3:23-24: 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

The parallel passages of 1 Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:5 and Gal 5:19-21 are about earning reward. Not loss of salvation.

If any of these 3 passages are about loss of salvation, then the Bible is horribly contradicted.

If they are about loss of salvation, then, as Paul said, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." {I know the context is about resurrection, but the phrase perfectly fits insecurity as well}

We aren't saved by our lifestyle, and NEITHER can we lose our salvation by our lifestyle, contrary to the views of the insecurity crowd.

And God said that even a person whom He had had been declared righteous, if he turns from his righteous ways and lives in sin, he will die.

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EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

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I'm always amused when one posts a verse totally out of context. The context very clearly speaks of physical death, not eternal death. This verse speaks of the same thing that 1 Tim 5:16, which is the sin unto death, or divine discipline for bad behavior. The principle is seen in 1 Cor 5:5, 10:5, 11:30, Acts 5.

Obviously I have a much better idea than you.

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Rather, obviously you have an opinion.

Of course He died for all our sins. And by doing so He destroyed the power of death tho hold anyone forever. Everyone will be raised from the dead immortal and imperishable. (1 Cor 15:51-54) The GRAVE is what you are saved from because of Jesus death and resurrection.

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This proves that one cannot lose their salvation. Christ already paid the price for ALL our sins. So even bad behavior has no effect on our salvation. However, such bad behavior has a HUGE effect on how God deals with us in time (discipline which may be severe and loss of eternal reward).

Where you spend eternity is up to YOU.

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Correct. Whether one accepts the free gift of eternal life or not. Where we spend eternity is NOT based on how we live, as your view suggests.

(Rom 2:6-10) (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good,

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Another verse that teaches eternal reward. We do NOT work for eternal life. When works or deeds or lifestyle is in view in the context, then mention of eternal life has to do with reward in eternity.

Please re-read Col 3:23-24 for inheriting rewards for behavior.

When I was a Protestant, I thought "saved" meant you were going to heaven. That's not what it means. It means you are saved from eternal, physical death and the destruction of your body which is the image of God.

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Which, btw, means "going to heaven". Those saved from eternal death are all going to heaven. Good grief!!

Oh, and btw, we are NOT "saved from physical death". Very few humans will not die. In the OT, Enoch and Elijah didn't die physically. And the rapture generation will not physically die.

By His death and resurrection, Christ defeated the power of death to hold mankind. All will be raised; some to eternal life and some to the second death.

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Those who have obtained the free gift of eternal life will NOT be cast into the lake of fire. They are saved and will go to heaven.

outsidethecamp · Jul 24, 2015

HatGuy said:
The prodigal son parable? Don't see the father there saying "I don't know you. Begone from me."

The prodigal son did not harden his heart to the point where he once and for all terminated his relationship with his father. He came back in repentance. This is not the person that Hebrews 6 is talking about. The prodigal son actually did not reject or terminate his relationship with his father in the first place. He just wanted his inheritance early and spent it on a profligate lifestyle (immaturity). Discipline and chastisement in the form of hardship and difficulty were introduced into his life and he came to his senses, but he never outright rejected and repudiated his relationship with his father.

Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

'Once Saved Always Saved': Fact or Fiction?

Fact.

Fiction.

Some guy in a hat

Some guy in a hat

Some guy in a hat

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Some guy in a hat

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Some guy in a hat

Some guy in a hat

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Some guy in a hat

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Some guy in a hat

Some guy in a hat

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Senior Veteran

Heb 13:10-15

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