Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

FreeGrace2 said:

This isn't about believing but about obedience. We receive salvation by grace through faith. We receive rewards through obedience.

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Unbelief is Disobedience.

Those who do not obey the Gospel, will suffer His vengeance.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

JLB

mmksparbud said:

God's gift's are definitely irrevocable---However---any gift, from anyone, including God, can be rejected.

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Not once received. We're not talking about a birthday present or Christmas present. We're talking about regeneration, new birth, being born again, being a new creature, being justified. These are not revocable.

There is no Scripture that teaches that one can lose or give away his salvation.

I said this:
"Such persistence demonstrates a complete failure to see with one's eyes. Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 so had no need to repeat himself in 11:29. btw, the word is in the plural in 11:29, so we can add justification, which was also defined as a gift of God in 5:15-17."

JLB777 said:

The word eternal life does not appear in Romans 11:29.

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Paul had already defined God's gifts as justification in 3:24 and 5:15-17 and eternal life in 6:23, so why expect him to repeat himself when he already defined what he meant?

The calling to those who were in fact broken off, is still available.

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Yes, that, too, is irrevocable. But why continue to refuse to acknowledge what Paul defined as gifts of God?

Are you trying now to teach that those who were broken off through unbelief, will have have eternal life ?

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No, that would be beyond stupid. Those broken off is about service to God, not getting saved, as it seems is being assumed.

Please show me in the scriptures where "unbelievers" are promised eternal life?

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Those who have never believed are promised only the lake of fire.

Unless you have a scripture that shows me you have eternal life APART from Jesus Christ, then your doctrine is unbiblical.
JLB

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The better challenge is this: unless you have any verse that teaches that if one ceases to believe they cease to be saved. As it is, all that has been provided is a bunch of opinions and feelings. No verse to support such a notion.

JLB777 said:

Unbelief is Disobedience.

Those who do not obey the Gospel, will suffer His vengeance.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

JLB

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To obey the Gospel means to believe it. And once it is believed, the believer is changed by God into a new creation (2 Cor 5:17), is born again, is given ETERNAL life, is justified freely, and WILL NOT come into condemnation. That is a promise.

Further, God gives the Holy Spirit as a seal and promise or pledge for the day of redemption.

There is no way to wriggle out of that promise, unless one wants to argue that God does not keep His promises.

Lucky_Skunk said:

HOwever, from earlier this week;

I like how in John 10:28, Jesus said "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish..".

Notice how Jesus doesn't go on to say "except if....unless....etc."

If we could lose our salvation, don't you think our lord would have put a ginormous disclaimer with that statement?

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With just two or three verses like this I don't see how anyone can continue to argue any of this. They want to point out scriptures where Jesus or Paul are talking about the people who have never been saved going to hell and applying it to Christians. It just doesn't work.

So, once saved always saved. End of story.

Throughout the epistle to the Hebrews, Paul is trying to encourage the Christians in Judea to make the difficult decisions that are called for in their present situation to " give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard" (2:1); to "hold fast their confidence" (3:6), and "profession" (4:14), and "confidence " (3:14), and "have need of patience" (10:36; 12:1) and "believe" (10:39). In this specific section (5:11 6:20) Paul exhorts them to "build on the foundation" (6:1) they have in Christ, to engage in the "things that accompany salvation" (6:9), "to be diligent to realize the full assurance of hope until the end" (6:11), to have "faith and patience to inherit the promises" (6:12), and this by "going on to perfection (maturity)" (6:1), the end-objective of God in their lives.

All these things that Paul is writing to the Jews in Hebrews apply also to Christians throughout all ages. He wants them to go onto maturity (perfection) and warns them about "departing from the living God".

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
This is not psychological enlightenment where someone has received some light by their own rationalistic understanding. This is talking about spiritual enlightenment that occurs at the time of regeneration (born-again). This enlightenment is the receipt of Christ's life. "In Him (Jesus) was life, and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). When the life of Christ is received one turns from darkness to light and from the domain/dominion of Satan to God "in order that they may receive the forgiveness of sins." (Acts 26:18)

and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
this too, refers to the one in faith who has received God's gift into oneself at regeneration. This is not a "taste taste" with a little "sipping", but involves taking into oneself for the full experience of Christ. When Jesus "tasted death for everyone (Heb 2:9), He experienced the full impact of death, not just a partial experience.

What is the heavenly gift? Paul calls it the "gift of grace". (Heb. 3:7; 4:7; Rom. 5:15,17; II Cor. 9:15) and in other places "the gift of redemption and salvation" (Eph. 2:8,9; Rom. 6:23), and also "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38; 10:45), but the "summing up of all things is in Christ" (Eph. 1:10), so the "heavenly gift" can be summed up in the person of Jesus Christ. "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), who is "the gift of God" (John 4:10). "God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:3).

and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
obviously, this can only refer to hose who have become partakers of the Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9) at regeneration. At the time of being born-again, the Christian becomes a "partaker of Christ" (3:14), a "partakers of the Holy Ghost" (6:4) and "a partaker of the divine nature" (II Pet. 1:4). "God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts" (Gal. 4:6). "The Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you; His spirit indwells you" (Rom. 8:11), Paul writes. "He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us" (I John 3:24), John adds.

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Again, taste is to take into oneself completely.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now, Paul is establishing a real possibility of a Christian having experienced all of the previous regenerative and spiritual realities, and that they can "fall away". To fall away does not mean to fall into sin. The context of Hebrews 6 demands that we understand that Paul is saying there is a strong possibility that one can fall away from a relationship with Jesus Christ, falling away from the enlightenment of His life, falling away from the "heavenly gift", from having experience the "powers of the world to come." To fall away is to renounce and reject all that one had received in Christ.

Paul indicates that not only are the Jewish Christians in danger of (2:1); departing from the living God (3:12); falling into unbelief (4:11); trodden under foot the Son of God (10:29); and being defiled by a root of bitterness (12:15), but so can the reader be in danger if they ignore the following: "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Heb 3:12).

"to renew them again unto repentance."
Paul is now connecting the falling away with the impossibility of renewing them again unto repentance. He did not say it was very difficult or impossible in our own strength to restore and renew a Christian who has rejected and denied Christ, no, he is saying it is divinely impossible since it would be inconsistent with the character of God.

Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

It is impossible for God to act contrary to who He is. God cannot give His son again having given His Son once and His Son having given His life "once for all" (Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:10), this cannot be reenacted. There is no other "sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26). If the salvation of Jesus Christ has been once (6:4) experienceed (6:4,5) and rejected (6:6), then God has nothing more to give. The complete and total reality of His grace and revelation of Himself are expressed in Jesus Christ. There can be no more foundation of repentance (6:1), no second go around at eternal life. God will not send His Son again and reenact redemption. If we repudiate and reject Christ we are embracing the impossible.

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:

Heb 6:6 ... seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Obviously, you cannot crucify the Lord again, so Paul is using metaphorical speech depicting Christians who seek to terminate their relationship with Jesus Christ. They want to "put to death" and eliminate their identification with Christ, by hanging Him on the tree of rejection. Their repudiation of Him brings Him to an open and public shame and humiliation by saying that the Life of Jesus Christ has no value and does not work.

This is what the "Falling Away" looks like. (2 Thess 2:3)

mmksparbud said:

God's gift's are definitely irrevocable---However---any gift, from anyone, including God, can be rejected.

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Sure they can. But if they are rejected, you skip the first part of the question of "Once saved". The question here asked if you are "Once save", "are you always saved?" The first part has to be true before the second part can be answered. Not everyone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God is saved.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

That's right. There's no such thing as OSAS. It's clearly stated, you go to hell if you chose to follow sin.



That's right. OSAS advocates think they're going to heaven and nothing can stop them. So they live in a false security without any effort to repent and turn from sinful nature.

Paul tells us, we are to change and transform ourselves through Christ till we become a new man, one that no longer sin.

Romans 12:2 (ESV) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (ESV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

1 John 3:9 (ESV) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

You have to be IN CHRIST to be transform. You have to be IN CHRIST to be a new creation. You have to be IN CHRIST to be born again. You have to be IN CHRIST to stop sinning. You have to be IN CHRIST to be saved.


Bottom line is this, once saved always saved is absolutely false if you're once a sinner always a sinner.

You have to change your old carnal nature, it's that simple. If you can't overcome this transformation, you won't be saved. It's written all over in Revelation 2-3.

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Which means they were never saved to start with. So, you can not say that OSAS is false. In order for it to even be a question, you have to have the "Once saved" part.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, that would be beyond stupid. Those broken off is about service to God, not getting saved, as it seems is being assumed.

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Yes, furthermore what's beyond stupid is claiming the context is about service in one verse, and the next verse is about eternal life.

That is how cults interpret scripture.

JLB777 said:

Yes, furthermore what's beyond stupid is claiming the context is about service in one verse, and the next verse is about eternal life.

That is how cults interpret scripture.

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Please tell the forum what Paul clearly DEFINED as gifts of God in Romans BEFORE he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. Just for fun.

fatherjimparker said:

The question was:

Can a "saved" person continually indulge in any and all those
sins and remain saved?

The only appropriate answers are a "yes" or a "no."

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The Bible doesn't define a measure of faith or will needed for justification. Some people have strong faith and yet weak will, and some have good will and yet weaker faith.

The word 'can' is what is important. In the context of it being 'possible', or 'perhaps'. I think a lot of theology has made what is a personal thing a very general thing, and I think Martin Luther probably felt the same way. He didn't very much like the idea of doctrine being the judge of one's salvation.
In fact, Sola Fide seems to put it very simply- where many churches have expounded on it in their own fashion, Luther mainly wanted to convey that one's salvation is their own business between them and Christ and that bishops and doctrines can just go on somewhere else.

MikeEnders said:

Pretty ridiculous statement. Context always has to do with any study where language is involved. Many of God's blessing are conditional even if we agree salvation is not one that you lose. Those blessings are also gifts and you don't always have them so context has everything to do with every verse. To say otherwise is just poor hermeneutics.

Romans 11 is a poor passage to use in this context. You are right there are others. Thats why we don't have to butcher this one. This passage is saying Jews will be remembered as a people and will come back to God because there is a corporate gift to the jews. Were all jews there saved? Nope so its not talking about gifts to individuals.

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Context is important in all hermeneutics of course.

The context of this passage is the "calling" of the Jews by God. The passage says that that calling is irrevocable.

In the same sentence it says that the "gifts" of God are also irrevocable.

Calling and gifts are obviously two different things in the mind of the Holy Spirit.

Saving faith is a gift from God. Therefore it is irrevocable just as is a calling of God.

I see nothing ridiculous about those hermeneutics. They are in accordance with good systematic theology principles.

And - blessings are not the same as gifts.

All of us who been given the gift of salvation.

We have all been blessed with all spiritual blessings in high places.

We have not all been given all spiritual gifts.

We are told to stir up the gifts that God has given to each of us - not so the blessings.

Those are a done deal. We are all seated with Him in Heavenly places. That is true now in this life not at some future date.

The idea that at the end of our life or even at various times in our life we might be ordered down off the throne where we are seated is absolutely not found in scripture.

There are indeed better passages for a non believer in security to expound than this one in Romans 11.

But there are few better than this passage for a believer in security to expound.

Proper "hermeneutics" demand that, if we see salvation as a gift, we see salvation as irrevocable.

If we see salvation as something we must earn or as something we can give back again, if per chance God should fail in the work He began in us - that's another story.

It's also another gospel IMO. At the very least it's flirting with preaching another gospel.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

And I'm pretty sure your argument will be "they were never saved!" Yeah well that's kind of a oxymoron mentality.

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"I never knew you means I once knew you and I no longer know you."
Now that's "oxymoron mentality.

Marvin Knox said:

"I never knew you means I once knew you and I no longer know you."
Now that's "oxymoron mentality.

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God "knows" all men, but in this case He is saying, "I don't know you anymore". You do not have my Spirit, you are no longer joined to Me as one spirit and I am not your Father. You chose the other, for your father.

outsidethecamp said:

God "knows" all men, but in this case He is saying, "I don't know you anymore". You do not have my Spirit, you are no longer joined to Me as one spirit and I am not your Father. You chose the other, for your father.

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Then He should have said so.

He said I never knew you.

You may or may not be right about loss of salvation.

But you are wrong about what this particular passage is saying.

You can't make it say something it doesn't say.

Marvin Knox said:

Then He should have said so.

He said I never knew you.

You may or may not be right about loss of salvation.

But you are wrong about what this particular passage is saying.

You can't make it say something it doesn't say.

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The “calling of God” (Rom. 11:29; Eph. 1:18) to Himself is in the Person and work of Jesus Christ, who as “the Elect One” (Lk. 23:35) is the basis and dynamic of the calling and the gifting. The gifts of God are all realized in the person of Jesus Christ and are not separate commodities, for Christ is our "all in all", and does not hand out anything apart from Himself.

Therefore, if you reject Christ, you are rejecting all the giftings of Christ because the "gift of God" is personified in His Son.

God will not revoke his calling and giftings, but we can reject Him and all that is of Him.

outsidethecamp said:

God will not revoke his calling and giftings, but we can reject Him and all that is of Him.

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Obviously I disagree with you.

Marvin Knox said:

Obviously I disagree with you.

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That is what Hebrews 6 is all about. It is good to have the freedom in Christ to disagree and yet, maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Blessings to you.

JLB777 said:

1. When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the end of the age, He will be seated on His throne of glory on the Day of Judgement They will be those who will inherit the kingdom of God and those who don't.Those who don't will be cast into the everlasting fires of hell.Those who do inherit the kingdom of God will reign with Christ here on earth for 1000 years and forever be with Him.On the Day of Judgement there are two groups of people, those who will be with the Lord and are blessed. Those who are not with the Lord and are cursed. All the nations, is a reference to all ethnic groups...Those who are cursed and will not be with the Lord, will be banished to the lake of fire with the Devil and his angels.

2. If you don't want to be with the Lord, then why did you become a Christian??? JLB

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1. Hey JLB777 - don't have a problemwith this - All I am saying is that those who trust Christ today by believing I Cor. 15:1-5 are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and are sealed forever! The saved today are in CHrist, seated in heavenly places at the right hand of God - Eph.1-3.

Now if you want to hang around and take a chance at going thru the tribulation hoping to make it to the end so you can stand before God at the final judgment and then tell him what a fine fella you've been then have at it my friend!

I chose to trust Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for my sins a long time ago and I'm going thru the tribulation in Christ seated in the heavenly places! Yahooooooooo!!!!

Your choice - trust Christ now or face him later dressed in your filthy rags.

God bless!

outsidethecamp said:

God "knows" all men, but in this case He is saying, "I don't know you anymore". You do not have my Spirit, you are no longer joined to Me as one spirit and I am not your Father. You chose the other, for your father.

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No, "never" does not mean "anymore". Unless words don't mean anything anymore.