Once saved always saved (Dangerous)?

[mixster]

I have always felt that this doctrine Baptist teach could be dangerous and I will tell you why. When I was a child of 11 I went to a SB church and when the alter call was given an old fellow reached over and whispered in my ear that if I did not go foreward I could end up in hell one day. Well I went forward and joined the church and was baptized and thought I was cool and on my way to heaven. But the truth is when I was baptized I went down a sinner and came up a wet one and not until many years later did I really meet Jesus and was born again and baptized for real. Now if I had not had this opportunity I might have lived my life thinking I was cool and when I died I would have ended up right where that old guy said I would go and that was hell.
Over the years I have known many folks that professed to be good christians and even were sunday school teachers, and deacons but they were no more christian than my car. THey would go to church every week and during the week live like the devil and say the Lords name in vain every other word it seems. I knew this fellow recently that went to a Baptist church and when he came to work he bragged on how he just taught Sunday School, and then pulled a Porn magazine out of his briefcase and split the air with profanity.
Now I know no Christian is perfect and we can sin, but when we do we repent immediately and we sure dont practice it as if nothing were wrong with it.
This once saved always saved business can be dangerous because many folks are taught this in church and in reality they were not really born again. In other words we cant just get someone to say a few words and leave them hanging . We have to make absolutely sure they know what they are doing and what it all means. In other words counsul them before they join a church or be baptized.
Now I do believe once we are saved , if we are really saved and born again, we are saved forever and only one time IF we keep the faith until the end, but there are many Baptist out there that do not have a clue and this is dangerous.........

 

[Hisgirl]

Mixster....I agree. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that in order to be saved you have to repeat this little prayer. It's all about what's in the heart and having faith in Jesus' grace. It's not just having faith in that parachute that it opens...put actually putting it on. I do believe that many, many, many people will stand before the Lord one day and say,"Lord , Lord..." and He will say,"Depart from Me, for I never knew you!" Matt. 7:21-23 (majorly paraphrased!) I worry about the people who think because they attended church that it will somehow get them that magical ticket into heaven......Does going into a garage make one a Buick? If a cat has kittens in the oven, does it make them biscuits? I think not! It's truly asking Jesus to be your savior, believing He was raised from the dead, and walking and talking with Him...getting to know him. I know on Kirk Cameron's Way of the Master DVD he says a denom. church in the USA claimed to get several hundreds of thousands 'decisions' yet they could only account for 10% of the number in a church.....where were the other 90% Did they just say a prayer in front of a person....a box got checked....and then they never gave it another thought? It concerns me.

 

[QuagDabPeg]

I've always wondered about this. What if someone was saved and then later rejected Jesus - how are they still saved? Although maybe one could agrue that they were never saved in the first place, but in that case how do you ever know if you are really saved because there are certainly people who seem (and believe themselves) to be saved and then later something happens that make them turn against Christ. Maybe I'm not understanding the doctrine correctly though.

 

[theseed]

I agree, however, I also think that there is danger in earning salvation.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I know on Kirk Cameron's Way of the Master DVD he says a denom. church in the USA claimed to get several hundreds of thousands 'decisions' yet they could only account for 10% of the number in a church.....where were the other 90% Did they just say a prayer in front of a person....a box got checked....and then they never gave it another thought? It concerns me.

I've seen Kirk do "his thing" and Kirk’s “method” of sharing the Gospel – I find it interesting he label’s what he does as “The Way of the Master”. The basic premise of his presentation was, your bad and your going to hell. Where does Jesus present the gospel as “you don’t want to go to hell do you?” Jesus said He came to save not condemn.

When we place the Gospel in terms of “you don’t want to go here do you” we aren’t framing it in the kind of language Jesus used – Jesus spoke of walking in harmony with God. I believe the reason we have so many people who come “down front” and “pray the prayer” but today it means absolutely nothing to the way they live today – why is that? I believe when we present the Gospel as “you don’t want to go here do you”, essentially as “fire insurance” we are presenting a faith that is irrelevant for today.

This is not a slam on “The Way of the Master” I’m sure many people have come to faith in Christ through it, and praise God for that. I however disagree with their methodology and prefer to share the “Good News” like my Rabbi [Jesus] did.

Far too many church present the Gospel as fire insurance and one day we're going to get out of here - the problem is this is not how Jesus shared the Gospel. He spoke of walking in harmony with God, restoration, and healing. In the Hebrew the term eternal life is olam habba, and means to live in harmony with God (which is where we get out "personal relationship" concept) - notice it's living not having the right things lined up in your brain (mere intellectual belief only). The early church was known as followers of "The Way" because of the way they lived (as a result of their beliefs).

I don't know if someone can walk away from their faith, I know according to the Bible they cannot "sin it away" (however if they continue to sin they will be punished) - for me it's not an issue of OSAS, but an issue of how do I present the Gospel; as a legal transation/fire insurance or as a way of life in which we are set free to live in harmony and wholeness with God.

 

[theseed]

I've always wondered about this. What if someone was saved and then later rejected Jesus - how are they still saved? Although maybe one could agrue that they were never saved in the first place, but in that case how do you ever know if you are really saved because there are certainly people who seem (and believe themselves) to be saved and then later something happens that make them turn against Christ. Maybe I'm not understanding the doctrine correctly though.

We can't know who is saved or who will be saved; we can't know who God has elected for salvation, but we can be confident that they are saved if they have the fruits of the Spirit. We can know if we are saved because of The Holy Spirit, and God's displining hand. The Bible teaches us that true believers will ultimately persevere in the faith.

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

I have always felt that this doctrine Baptist teach could be dangerous and I will tell you why. When I was a child of 11 I went to a SB church and when the alter call was given an old fellow reached over and whispered in my ear that if I did not go foreward I could end up in hell one day. Well I went forward and joined the church and was baptized and thought I was cool and on my way to heaven. But the truth is when I was baptized I went down a sinner and came up a wet one and not until many years later did I really meet Jesus and was born again and baptized for real. Now if I had not had this opportunity I might have lived my life thinking I was cool and when I died I would have ended up right where that old guy said I would go and that was hell.
Over the years I have known many folks that professed to be good christians and even were sunday school teachers, and deacons but they were no more christian than my car. THey would go to church every week and during the week live like the devil and say the Lords name in vain every other word it seems. I knew this fellow recently that went to a Baptist church and when he came to work he bragged on how he just taught Sunday School, and then pulled a Porn magazine out of his briefcase and split the air with profanity.
Now I know no Christian is perfect and we can sin, but when we do we repent immediately and we sure dont practice it as if nothing were wrong with it.
This once saved always saved business can be dangerous because many folks are taught this in church and in reality they were not really born again. In other words we cant just get someone to say a few words and leave them hanging . We have to make absolutely sure they know what they are doing and what it all means. In other words counsul them before they join a church or be baptized.
Now I do believe once we are saved , if we are really saved and born again, we are saved forever and only one time IF we keep the faith until the end, but there are many Baptist out there that do not have a clue and this is dangerous.........

I fully believe that Once Saved Always Saved, but I also agree with what you are saying. I honestly believe "the sinners prayer" will take more people to hell then it will heaven. I just pray that those who are leading people to Christ are actually doing so. I guess the sinners prayers is another topic but it honestly bothers me. To me its no more than when someone goes to court and is asked to swear on the Bible. Now just because they said God and put their hand on the Word doesn't mean anything, it's a heart issue. Only the fruits of their lives will show which side they are on. I know we all fall down repeatedly, but the Bible speaks of those who continually live in sin and have no repentant heart. Knowing the Lord, you will have to be convicted of things, because His Spirit wants that. I think if we are to be true disciples of Christ, we see these people who are new Christians, become their friends and just see how their walk is and we will know where their heart lies. I like this post and do agree with it.

 

[BT]

Let's not get eternal security mixed up with the sinner's prayer too much. I know that in some places (probably even Baptist churches) they have a standard kind of prayer that they use with people who are being saved. The standard prayer is ok and usually contains the wording that fits with the New Testament teaching on salvation... like 1. I'm a sinner, 2. Jesus died for me, 3. I accept His death as payment on my behalf (for my sins), 4. I believe that He was the Son of God, died, was buried and rose again (actually this would go between 1 and 2). etc.

Salvation comes from the belief in these things (in the heart), but does not end at this point. Eternal security is a biblical doctrine that is easy to show from Scripture. The thing that isn't so easy to see is this doctrine in the lives of others. What we need to remember is that we all have different gifts, different levels of faith/understanding, we all have different struggles, stumbling blocks etc. Luckily for us, God is bigger than us, and yes if we are saved it is a done deal. And yes, contrary to one poster above we can know if we are saved and we do know when we are saved and we will meet the Lord at our death, not because of anything we did or didn't do but rather because of what He did for us.

 

[Theophorus]

I have a question that I have asked a few times with no response concerning the elect and OSAS. Maybe someone here could help me out.

Was Adam saved?

I ask this in the context of Christ being the new Adam. By Him we are made righteous, just as by Adam we were made sinners. If (and this is a big "if") Christ came to restore what was lost, how are we any different than Adam, before the fall?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

The basic premise of his presentation was, your bad and your going to hell. Where does Jesus present the gospel as “you don’t want to go to hell do you?” Jesus said He came to save not condemn.

I beg to differ.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus was very clear, if your not going to heaven, then you are going to hell.

This is not a slam on “The Way of the Master” I’m sure many people have come to faith in Christ through it, and praise God for that. I however disagree with their methodology and prefer to share the “Good News” like my Rabbi [Jesus] did.

I think thier soul winning methods are very biblicaly accurate. Although no one in this world will ever speak with the compassion and power Christ we cannot assume that Christ was some wimpy feminist like man who looks like a hippie. Its not like peace and love mannnnnnnnn.
Here look at this.

Matthew 10:34-37 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

This peace that you speak of. Its not peace of the world, but peace that KNOWING your not going to hell!
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Far too many church present the Gospel as fire insurance and one day we're going to get out of here - the problem is this is not how Jesus shared the Gospel. He spoke of walking in harmony with God, restoration, and healing. In the Hebrew the term eternal life is olam habba, and means to live in harmony with God (which is where we get out "personal relationship" concept) - notice it's living not having the right things lined up in your brain (mere intellectual belief only). The early church was known as followers of "The Way" because of the way they lived (as a result of their beliefs).

I disagree. The way is not because of the WAY they lived, they were named that because of the person that they followed who said........I AM THE WAY!
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus Used his words with POWER, with COMPASSION, with WISDOM, and most definatly with CONVICTION.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

If one does not know they are a sinner and that they need a saviour, how would they get to heaven? There must be conviction in the heart before there is conversion of the heart. Its all in the heart. And it is with love that people speak. They need to know the truth, they need to know what will happen if they die without Christ.
GEL
Ps. YES once you are born again, you CANNOT undo the operation God did on you.

Colossians 2:11-15 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

If you say you can undo this operation, you are saying you have more power than HIM that this is absolutley NOT possible.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I have a question that I have asked a few times with no response concerning the elect and OSAS. Maybe someone here could help me out.

Was Adam saved?

I ask this in the context of Christ being the new Adam. By Him we are made righteous, just as by Adam we were made sinners. If (and this is a big "if") Christ came to restore what was lost, how are we any different than Adam, before the fall?

Yes Adam was saved by faith, just as Abraham was saved by faith.
Here......
Hebrews 11:1-4 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Yes Adam was saved I would paste the whole chapter, but I figured you might want to pick up your bible and read the whole chapter yourself. Most of the time, its better if I actually pick up the book and read it rather than read it on software.

GEL

 

[Theophorus]

Yes Adam was saved by faith, just as Abraham was saved by faith.
Here......
Hebrews 11:1-4 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Yes Adam was saved I would paste the whole chapter, but I figured you might want to pick up your bible and read the whole chapter yourself. Most of the time, its better if I actually pick up the book and read it rather than read it on software.

GEL

I'm sorry, after re-reading my post I should have been more specific. Was Adam in a saved condition before he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I'm sorry, after re-reading my post I should have been more specific. Was Adam in a saved condition before he ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge?

YES he was saved, He would have lived forever in the garden. But because of the fruit that was eaten he not only died spirtually but eventually died physically.


You know what........I jumped the gun on this one. Let me ponder on what i just typed, OK!

 

[Theophorus]

YES he was saved, He would have lived forever in the garden. But because of the fruit that was eaten he not only died spirtually but eventually died physically.


You know what........I jumped the gun on this one. Let me ponder on what i just typed, OK!

OK.

I'm not bating anyone here, just trying to get a handle on the OSAS position.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

You know,
Now that I think about it, He really did not need a saviour. So, I guess he was not saved. He was made perfect by God with a free will to choose what he wanted.
Very intresting point though. I have never pondered this.
I cannot see this being evidence of one losing thier salvation since he did not have a sinful nature until after he died spirtually.
GEL

 

[Theophorus]

I guess it would depend somewhat on your definition of salvation. To state it another way, is it possible for a person to fall from grace, and was Adam in that state.

 

[daveleau]

I have always felt that this doctrine Baptist teach could be dangerous and I will tell you why. When I was a child of 11 I went to a SB church and when the alter call was given an old fellow reached over and whispered in my ear that if I did not go foreward I could end up in hell one day. Well I went forward and joined the church and was baptized and thought I was cool and on my way to heaven. But the truth is when I was baptized I went down a sinner and came up a wet one and not until many years later did I really meet Jesus and was born again and baptized for real. Now if I had not had this opportunity I might have lived my life thinking I was cool and when I died I would have ended up right where that old guy said I would go and that was hell.
Over the years I have known many folks that professed to be good christians and even were sunday school teachers, and deacons but they were no more christian than my car. THey would go to church every week and during the week live like the devil and say the Lords name in vain every other word it seems. I knew this fellow recently that went to a Baptist church and when he came to work he bragged on how he just taught Sunday School, and then pulled a Porn magazine out of his briefcase and split the air with profanity.
Now I know no Christian is perfect and we can sin, but when we do we repent immediately and we sure dont practice it as if nothing were wrong with it.
This once saved always saved business can be dangerous because many folks are taught this in church and in reality they were not really born again. In other words we cant just get someone to say a few words and leave them hanging . We have to make absolutely sure they know what they are doing and what it all means. In other words counsul them before they join a church or be baptized.
Now I do believe once we are saved , if we are really saved and born again, we are saved forever and only one time IF we keep the faith until the end, but there are many Baptist out there that do not have a clue and this is dangerous.........

Scripture does not teach that insincere salvation attempts will be rewarded with salvation. Whether you talk of OSAS or OSNAS, insincere calls for salvation are equally as dangerous. I would not lay the blame at the doors of OSAS believers.

Truly deep exegesis of Scripture leads to OSAS. Once the passages are understood that make people believe they can lose their salvation (I'm talking about true desires for salvation, not insincere ones), they note the way the Jewish spoke of the time and can be more at ease with a OSAS approach. The truth is that the Blood of Christ is more powerful than our sins, past present or future. If you believe in OSNAS, then you believe in the weakness of the Blood of Christ, which is an incomprehensible notion for me. Christ died for our sins 2000 years ago. All the sins He died for were future sins. When we sin in the future after Salvation, we will not lose our Salvation because Christ says that NOTHING can separate Him from us. We instead lose part of our rewards in Heaven.

 

[Ave Maria]

In my opinion, there is one form of once saved, always saved that goes against free will. That would be the kind that says that once you are saved you are always saved regardless of whether you willingly walk away from Christianity or not. Personally, I believe that once a person is saved, they are always saved unless they willingly and consciously give up Christianity and their salvation.

 

[psalms 91]

i look at the eth ending on many verses that deal with this subject and eth means continual action, it is dangerous in my mind to believe i am saved and can do what i want as the carnal man would run with that, i agree that once you are saved you want to do what god wants but there is always the old nature with satan tempting you so if i believed this i would have no trouble giving in. i must continuously ask forgiveness because we all sin daily so why should salvation be any different

 

[Hisgirl]

This thread causes a lot of deep thinking....unfortunately, in our limited state of understanding, many answers won't be had until we're standing before the Lord. I know for myself, that I know the Lord, am saved through faith in his grace, and am growing everyday to be more like Him and to become a good harvester.

I do disagree with the above poster about Kirk Cameron's witnessing technique. People won't acknowledge a need to be 'saved' until they understand in their heart that they are 'lost'.....their website is very impressive...I would recommend a peek...the way of the master.

AS for OSAs....there was a very well known pastor a while back who was just out there for Christ. Then something happened....and he decided he no longer believed....in fact, he became extremely outspoken over why he was WRONG in his beliefs before and that there is no God and Jesus wasn't who he said he was....quite the little turnaround, he was. I wonder what happened to him when he died....