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Once saved always saved (Dangerous)?

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mixster

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As for the unpardonable sin. I think some baptist come close when they ascribe tongues and the gifts of the Spirit to the devil which I have heard many times. We may not understand everything or even believe everything but we should let it ride and keep our mouths shut sometimes when we just dont understand a Scripture or doctrine. The same goes for some of these faith teachers out there like Benny Hinn, I really do not like him and I am very leery of folks like him but I stop short of saying they are of the devil or not of God for ultimately only God knows what is from him.
 
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ZiSunka

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I think some "tongues" are of the devil because they take the emphasis off a relationship with Christ and faith in Him, and put it on having an experience that even unsaved people can have. Not to mention the chaos it can create in a church.

Real tongues are easy to spot, it doesn't have anything to do with babble, it's speaking in real languages which the speaker never spoke before, and never studied!
 
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OSAS is not a bad thing. Too many people misunderstands the concept.

When a person sins as a truly-born-again-christian they don't break the relationship they break the fellowship...there's a difference.

When a child disobeys his parents it doesn't mean they are no longer that parent's child but has a fellowship problem between the two. God is our Heavenly Father and it's the same. God has some disobedient children.

We view relationships too many times as unrepairable, unforgivable but go study the what the Bible teaches about sealed covenants that God makes with people. Our salvation is a seal/done deal. God doesn't go back on his promises PTL! :angel:


A12711A-md.jpg
 
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costlygrace

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QuagDabPeg said:
I've always wondered about this. What if someone was saved and then later rejected Jesus - how are they still saved? Although maybe one could agrue that they were never saved in the first place, but in that case how do you ever know if you are really saved because there are certainly people who seem (and believe themselves) to be saved and then later something happens that make them turn against Christ. Maybe I'm not understanding the doctrine correctly though.

Ultimately, I suppose, you could say that those who fall away and reject Christ never were really saved, in the sense that 1) they never will go to heaven and 2) God foreknew that they would at some point fall away and choose to reject Him.

But we can't say to ourselves that just because we have evidence of salvation now, means that there is no possibility we could fall away. The Bible clearly teaches against this.

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." [20] Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; [21] for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. [22] Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22


"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them...
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"
2 Peter 2:21;3:17

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [27] but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27

Hebrews 6 gives us a big reason to "press on to maturity"--which is so that we will not fall away after being saved. This is perhaps the passage that shows us most clearly that we can indeed lose our salvation after having become God's children:



"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [6] and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6


Being made partakers of the Holy Spirit, that He might dwell within us, is evidence that we are indeed God's children. But this verse clearly states that we can stil fall away (even permanently, without remedy!), afterhaving had all the evidences within us of being God's children.

"Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, some of you may seem to have come short of it." Hebrews 4:1 If we cease to believe, even in the future, and do not repent, we will reap the consequences of doing so.

God bless!
costlygrace
 
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mixster

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costlygrace. Those Scriptures you quoted give some credence to the idea we can indeed lose our salvation if we give up the faith. Satan is very subtle and we do not make shipwreck of our faith overnight. It happens very gradually and could take years before we finally come to the point where we have no more faith in Jesus and his salvation.
We can see how satan works slowly by looking at the condition America is in. First we allow some to come in and urge a few abortions for heath sake and years later we have millions of dead babies and as for homosexuals. Just a few years ago it was a crime to be a homosexual and commit the acts they do. They stayed in the closet but now with a little door open here and a little there we have a full blown acceptance of that filth in our country where they can marry and get benefits like married couples. Who would ever think this could happen and this is the way satan works in christians lives, first a little peek of this and a little of that, and next stop going to fellowship, stop reading the Bible, little by little sliding down the taboggan slide of hell and then possible giving up the faith and denying Christ and becoming athist or something like this. As I said before I cant see a born again person giving up Jesus but because of our free will it is possible.
 
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eldermike

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How do you figure?

Ro 5:6
¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Ro 5:7
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Ro 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Ro 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Ro 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ro 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ro 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Ro 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Ro 5:16
And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
Ro 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.
Ro 5:18
So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
Ro 5:19
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.
Ro 5:20
And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly:
Ro 5:21
that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Ro 6:1
¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?
Ro 6:3
Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4
We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
Ro 6:5
For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;
Ro 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Ro 6:7
for he that hath died is justified from sin.
Ro 6:8
But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;
Ro 6:9
knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
Ro 6:10
For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Ro 6:11
Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
Ro 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
Ro 6:13
neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Ro 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.
Ro 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.
Ro 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ro 6:17
But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered;
Ro 6:18
and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.
Ro 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification.
Ro 6:20
For when ye were servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness.
Ro 6:21
What fruit then had ye at that time in the things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Ro 6:22
But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.
Ro 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


We are taught by God to live for Him. There are many verses in scripture that seem to lead one to think that salvation is a deal we make to live in faith. But those verse are more about how to identify the lost. There is nothing unclear about Romans 5-6. Jesus died for you because there was no escape from death any other way. By adding "us" to the salvation equation we are wrongly understanding the true condition of man. We are seeing a goodness in us that is simply not there.
 
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eldermike

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Then how do you figure that if we let go of our faith, Christ has to go back in time and come down off the cross and walk away alive? :scratch:

What I said was a parallel to something impossible. You can't walk away from your faith. Faith is not something you muster, it's a gift not only given by God, it is God. Apart from God, you can do nothing to please God. Hense, your faith is due completely by the action of God in you.
 
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costlygrace

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eldermike said:
What I said was a parallel to something impossible. You can't walk away from your faith.
What about the verses (some quoted above) that say you can fall away and lose your salvation, even after being made partakers of the Holy Spirit? :scratch:
eldermike said:
Faith is not something you muster, it's a gift not only given by God, it is God.
Where in the Bible does it say that?
eldermike said:
Apart from God, you can do nothing to please God. Hense, your faith is due completely by the action of God in you.
No, we are saved by [God's] grace, through [our] faith--it is saying here that God's grace is a gift, not that faith is; that grace is God's to give and not ours to earn by works, not that God is the only source of faith. We are saved by believing, rather than believing by being saved. And the Bible is clear on the point that we are able to permanently fall away after having become God's children (with the evidences that accompany that).
 
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ZiSunka

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eldermike said:
What I said was a parallel to something impossible. You can't walk away from your faith. Faith is not something you muster, it's a gift not only given by God, it is God. Apart from God, you can do nothing to please God. Hense, your faith is due completely by the action of God in you.

Ahh! I hadn't gotten that at all! Thanks for explaining it.:)
 
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FreeinChrist

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costlygrace said:
"For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them...
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"
2 Peter 2:21;3:17

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [27] but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27

Hebrews 6 gives us a big reason to "press on to maturity"--which is so that we will not fall away after being saved. This is perhaps the passage that shows us most clearly that we can indeed lose our salvation after having become God's children:



"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [6] and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6



The book of Hebrew was written to Hellenistic Jews. I believe a study of the Greek used in it would help one understand that this is not talking about being saved, and then losing salvation, but is of those who heard the truth, seemed to respond, having seen the working of the Holy Spirit in the church (partakers of the Holy Spirit in a corporate sense), then rejected Christ afterall. As they reject Christ, they are doomed, because there will be no futhur sacrifice for sin. Thus the statement:
Hbr 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without {reference to} sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If I bought into your thought that Hebrews 6 represents a saved person who lost his salvation...then one must view salvation as a one time chance in this life, and if once lost, can never be regained. So Joe College loses faith in college (loses salvation), having been saved at 10 years old, and even though he repents later and turns to Jesus...there is no hope for him! That is not Biblical! Jesus will go after the lamb that got lost...the Holy Spirit works in our life to guide us to God.

So I stick with what I learned when studying Hebrews and the Greek, that it refers to those who are represented by the seed that falls on rocky ground:
Mat 13:5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.

Mat 13:6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
No root - no indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Note another verse in Hebrews 6:
Hbr 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

The falling away we have to be concerned with is falling away from fellowship with Christ which harms our witness, hurts our lives and causes deep unhappiness in time. But I have never seen a verse that states we become the old creature again, become unforgiven again, or that we are unadopted by God, or lose the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
We lose rewards.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. That verse is not about purgatory as some believe, but about what I just wrote - loss of reward, but stay saved.


"Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, some of you may seem to have come short of it." Hebrews 4:1 If we cease to believe, even in the future, and do not repent, we will reap the consequences of doing so.
Can you guarantee that every member of your church truly beleives in Christ? Are some there because their family expects it? Or because they want to be 'upstanding' in the community? Say they believe but don't show evidence of the work of the Spirit?
We need to make sure that those in our churches are in Christ, helping them grow in Christ.
 
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ZiSunka

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Let's just say that if you can lose your salvation by doubting, sinning, turning your back on God for a while or being out of fellowship with the body of Believers, I'm cooked!

It would also imply that Christ was lying when he said nothing is unforgivable excpet blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
 
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eldermike

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[Let's just say that if you can lose your salvation by doubting, sinning, turning your back on God for a while or being out of fellowship with the body of Believers, I'm cooked!
/QUOTE]

We all are. Amen!

Born again, is not born again and again. There is no scripture on born again, died again. Christ died once, we died once, Christ rose once, we rose once. Keeping the faith to the end is not about salvation, it's a promise. Mt 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 
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SonOfThunder

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It seems a difficult concept to me that a person that has been given eternal life can keep it if they go against what God commands. We all sin and the Nt is always correcting and warning. terms like 'luke warm' the 'vine that bears no fruit is cut off' Obedienace matters to God so it should matter to us as believers.

I cant get my head around God accepting anyone who decides to go against God for the rest of their lives.

It's way to scary for me to think about


James
 
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BT

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SonOfThunder said:
It seems a difficult concept to me that a person that has been given eternal life can keep it if they go against what God commands. We all sin and the Nt is always correcting and warning. terms like 'luke warm' the 'vine that bears no fruit is cut off' Obedienace matters to God so it should matter to us as believers.

I cant get my head around God accepting anyone who decides to go against God for the rest of their lives.

It's way to scary for me to think about
James

Hiya James. OSAS is a scary concept because it proves that God is much bigger than us.

I heard a preacher once say, "Come the rapture there are going to be a lot of people sitting in churches, looking around and saying things like, "Couldn't have been the rapture, look, those filthy sinners that sit in the third pew are gone.."

The long and short of it is that OSAS is God's doctrine, not something that the Baptist church (or any other) made up to coax people into the joint. The only qualification of OSAS is that you are saved. And there are definite ways to tell in general terms if a person is saved or not, although ultimately the only two who know for sure is the sinner and the saviour. Christ knows who belongs to him and true Christians who have repented and been regenerated also know who they serve from the bottom of their hearts.

However one of my famous quotes is "We don't teach doctrine based on experience. We rely on the Word alone!" so:

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1. Believers are granted eternal life. Eternal means eternal. Eternal does not mean, "Until next Tuesday";"Until they screw up";"Until they start doin bad stuff";"Until they change their minds"

2. They will "never" perish. Never in v. 28 is the Greek "ou me" (oo may) and is defined as a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). (Strongs Greek word 3364).

Pluck is an interesting phrase here. Think of tearing up a flower, what do you do? You pluck the petals off. How do you accomplish this forcible act? You accomplish it because you are mightier than the flower bud (the point at which the petals are connected). So if you were able (by your actions or motives) to pluck yourself out of God's hand then you, my friend, must needs be more powerful than God. Because you would have to "pluck" yourself out of His hand. When Jesus says "no man" that includes you.


The Christian life and service has to do with the rewards that we will be given in heaven. We are the laborers and anything that we do is secondary to the work that God does. Paul notes that we "plant and water" but it is God alone who gives the increase. Some plant and water more than others. This does not affect ones salvation, merely the rewards that they will be given at the judgement. Check out 1 Corinthians 3:

1 Corinthians 3:8-9 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

- We will receive a reward according to what we do. This reward (as you will see in a minute, is in addition to the great salvation that we have already been given...

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now this is a fairly complicated portion of scripture. But the point I want you to see is that the foundation for our lives is Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

To build upon this foundation is to do the work of planting and watering. Those who carry on this work receive one of the six reward types above (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble);

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

All that we do will be judged. Yes, Christians are judged. Not in the same judgement as the wicked. We have our own (but that is a topic for another time). So the works that we do will earn us some kind of reward. To be steadfast, longsuffering is a "work", to say 'I quit, I'm doing nothing more for God. I'm serving myself alone.' is also a work and receives its own reward (namely wood, hay, stubble).

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

The trial by fire would consume the wood, hay and stubble. These are the non-permanent rewards and are awarded based upon a life that is "non-permanent" (meaning a life that does benefit to the earthly existence which is temporal, yet does nothing for the eternal. Refer to Christ's teaching on "where your treasure is..."). The trial by fire would not consume the gold, silver, and gems. Fire does not destroy these..

Now here's the cool thing:

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Even if your works are selfish. God is faithful to save you. You will suffer the loss of rewards, but you will be saved just the same.
 
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FreeinChrist

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SonOfThunder said:
It seems a difficult concept to me that a person that has been given eternal life can keep it if they go against what God commands. We all sin and the Nt is always correcting and warning. terms like 'luke warm' the 'vine that bears no fruit is cut off' Obedienace matters to God so it should matter to us as believers.

I cant get my head around God accepting anyone who decides to go against God for the rest of their lives.

It's way to scary for me to think about


James

If they go against God for the rest of their life, their fruit shows they were never saved.

It is God who draws, grants, and gives us to Christ. He knows if we truly beleive or not.
 
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SonOfThunder

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FreeinChrist said:
If they go against God for the rest of their life, their fruit shows they were never saved.

It is God who draws, grants, and gives us to Christ. He knows if we truly beleive or not.

Thats an interesting statement.

I have seen personally people who love God a whole lot turn and follow the world. Were they ever believers, you bet your life! can we say that anyone who choses through warped beliefs to not follow God were saved in the first place?

what about the parent that loses a child or has huge things happen in their lives and they can't cope and wonder where God was in it all and turn, their faith level wasn't high enough to sustain such a battering.

We fail, we have faith problems, does that mean no eternal life?

I sure don't know.

interesting topic isn't it?

James
 
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