• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Once again, CREATIONISTS!

Lucretius

Senior Veteran
Feb 5, 2005
4,382
206
37
✟5,541.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Okay --- as promised --- here's the answer to my Apple Challenge:

You subtract the amount of mass/energy in the universe before I created the apple, from the amount of mass/energy in the universe after I created the apple, and the difference should be the amount of mass/energy of the apple.

This would serve as convincing evidence that the apple was created ex nihilo.

It's that simple --- but remember --- I said it required an amount of omniscience.
This is not feasible even for an omniscient being —measuring the energy of the universe simultaneously would result in an infinitely large uncertainty in regards to the energy via the Energy-Time uncertainty —making the measurement of the new energy impossible to verify.
 
Upvote 0

BrainHertz

Senior Member
Nov 5, 2007
564
28
Oregon
✟15,840.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married

I don't see why this would be an argument in favor of creationism as typically undestood (ie the Earth appeared out of nothing 6000 years ago or so).

It's just a demonstration that an assertion that something occurred by magic cannot be disproved (or proved, for that matter).

It doesn't address the situation at hand, specifically that we have very good evidence that the universe has existed for very much longer than 6000 years.
 
Upvote 0

MoonLancer

The Moon is a reflection of the MorningStar
Aug 10, 2007
5,765
166
✟29,524.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship

LOL. why does a apple have a stem if its created *poof* but Adam has no belly button? This challenge you posted is a joke AV.

If god created an apple with a stem then he is a dishonest and if it has no internal stem system and is a perfect spear with no top or bottom, then it was created.
 
Upvote 0
T

tanzanos

Guest
W A R N I N G !

This thread has been infected with the AV1 611VET Trojan Virus!
Threat factor: ANNOYANCE (this variant similar to the DAD variant; manifests itself in threads regarding God and creationism. It's intent is to manipulate the reader into submission that creationism and God are the only relevant things in life)
Cures:
One cure is to add it to your ignore list.
Another line of action is to try to confuse this virus through the massive use of "RED HERRINGS".
Lastly the best advice is to take everything in jest and NEVER try to reason with this Trojan

There is NO KNOWN REMOVER TOOL. Once afflicted you will have to bear with it.:doh:
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,677
52,517
Guam
✟5,131,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is not feasible even for an omniscient being...

As I point out, in ex nihilo creation, the amount of mass/energy started out at zero, then steadily increased over a period of six days to its current level. At that point God rested, initiating the Conversation of Mass/Energy Principle.

—measuring the energy of the universe simultaneously would result in an infinitely large uncertainty in regards to the energy via the Energy-Time uncertainty —making the measurement of the new energy impossible to verify.

No measuring necessary if you're factoring in omniscience.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,677
52,517
Guam
✟5,131,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't see why this would be an argument in favor of creationism as typically undestood (ie the Earth appeared out of nothing 6000 years ago or so).

It's just a demonstration that an assertion that something occurred by magic cannot be disproved (or proved, for that matter).

It doesn't address the situation at hand, specifically that we have very good evidence that the universe has existed for very much longer than 6000 years.

If you want to dismiss ex nihilo as "magic", then I dismiss your "very good evidence" as "faulty."

( Note: I would anyway, if it contradicts the Scriptures. :) )
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,677
52,517
Guam
✟5,131,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
LOL. why does a apple have a stem if its created *poof* but Adam has no belly button? This challenge you posted is a joke AV.

If god created an apple with a stem then he is a dishonest and if it has no internal stem system and is a perfect spear with no top or bottom, then it was created.

While you're laughing, keep in mind that in the hypothetical, I created the apple ex nihilo, not God.

My apple is simply an apple --- stem and all --- ripe and ready for eating.

As I told those who think this stem and calyx thing is a pwn to my challenge (Loudmouth, I think), I'm not even sure there were apples in the Garden, as God created "kinds" back then, and "kinds" also refer to the flora as well.

But notice the wording of Genesis 1:29 ---

[bible]Genesis 1:29[/bible]

So maybe He did create apple trees with calyx, stem, seeds, etc.

Either way, I'm sure no one was "fooled" by anything.
 
Upvote 0

Deadbolt

Mocker and Scoffer
Jul 19, 2007
1,019
54
40
South beloit, IL
✟23,955.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
( Note: I would anyway, if it contradicts the Scriptures. :) )

So why does this evidence exist in the psychical universe? Is it to test faith in god? If this is so, then I see much to blacken his character.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,677
52,517
Guam
✟5,131,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So why does this evidence exist in the psychical universe? Is it to test faith in god? If this is so, then I see much to blacken his character.

It's not the evidence that's misleading --- it's their interpretation of the evidence that's misleading.

For instance, Frumious Bandersnatch argues that Egypt existed before the Flood. Yet the father of the Egyptians is Mizraim, who is the grandson of Noah.

[bible]Genesis 10:6[/bible]

Am I to take FB's "evidence" over what the Scriptures say?

No thanks --- as far as I'm concerned, that's not an option.

Here's another good example:

Some say that the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh predates the Flood as well.

Yet it was Nimrod, Noah's great grandson, that built Babel in the first place.

Thaumaturgy argues that India torpedoed itself into Asia, and is still shoving itself inland, causing the mountains of Tibet to rise, I think, 5 centimeters per year.

Yet this assumes that at one time India was detached from Asia for some unknown distance; and when I asked how long it took for India to ram into Asia, the answer I got was 250 million years.

I don't buy that at all.

I have no proplem with the mountains rising 5 centimeters per year, or even India shoving itself northward; but I do have a serious problem with the 250 million years requirement.
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
79
Visit site
✟30,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
It's not the evidence that's misleading --- it's their interpretation of the evidence that's misleading.

For instance, Frumious Bandersnatch argues that Egypt existed before the Flood. Yet the father of the Egyptians is Mizraim, who is the grandson of Noah.

[bible]Genesis 10:6[/bible]

Am I to take FB's "evidence" over what the Scriptures say?
It's not my evidence it's the evidence of archeologists and historians that shows that dynastic Egypt existed hundreds of years prior to the date that most Biblical Literalists including you give for the flood as did Ancient Sumeria and ancient cultures in the Indus Valley and China and predynastic Egyptian and other neolithic and early bronze age cultures existed long before them. There is no evidence anywhere that these cultures were interupted by a global flood and certainly no evidence that Egypt was founded by the grandson of a man whose family had survived a flood that had destroyed everyone else on earth but his family and had completely devasted the landscape wiping out all plant and animal life except for those on the big boat with him. The idea is patently absurd. So believe whatever nonsense you want all the evidence from archeology, biology, palenotology, geology and cosmology show that what you believe is indeed nonsense.
No thanks --- as far as I'm concerned, that's not an option.

Here's another good example:

Some say that the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh predates the Flood as well.

Yet it was Nimrod, Noah's great grandson, that built Babel in the first place.
The Epic of Gilgamesh does predate the Biblical accounts and was clearly borrowed by the Preists who wrote the Torah. The idea that there were enough people on earth to build a tower so big it frightened God into "confusing their languages" and that these people founded all the civilizations on earth only 100 years after a global flood had totally devasted the landscape killing off everyone and everything but one family and a boatload of animals is a boatload of ******.

Thaumaturgy argues that India torpedoed itself into Asia, and is still shoving itself inland, causing the mountains of Tibet to rise, I think, 5 centimeters per year.

Yet this assumes that at one time India was detached from Asia for some unknown distance; and when I asked how long it took for India to ram into Asia, the answer I got was 250 million years.

I don't buy that at all.
You don't buy anything that contradicts your interpretation of the Bible no matter how much evidence there is for it and how much there is against your interpretation of the Bible.
I have no proplem with the mountains rising 5 centimeters per year, or even India shoving itself northward; but I do have a serious problem with the 250 million years requirement.
That is only because it contradicts your intepretation of scripture.

Now do you have any evidence outside of your interpretation of scripture that there is any validity to your intepretation of scripture?
 
Upvote 0

LittleNipper

Contributor
Mar 9, 2005
9,011
174
MOUNT HOLLY, NEW JERSEY
✟10,660.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
A belief that the world is only 6,000 years old requires either ignorance or ignore-ance of geology and many other aspects of science so please don't call those who know far more than you about these topics ignorant. Now are you invoking the deceptive God of the Omphalos Hypothesis. OK but that still leaves you with no evidence for creationism.
They only "know" what they "think." They were not present for either the creation, assembly, nor grand opening. An ignorant person is one who lacks experience. If one was not there and one is not willing to listen to GOD's revelation (since GOD was there). One must expect to be humbled from time to time.........
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
79
Visit site
✟30,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
They only "know" what they "think." They were not present for either the creation, assembly, nor grand opening. An ignorant person is one who lacks experience. If one was not there and one is not willing to listen to GOD's revelation (since GOD was there). One must expect to be humbled from time to time.........
But unlike you they know what the evidence is and they know how much evidence there is for a long history in the development of civilization and for a much longer history of the earth.

Now do you have any actual evidence for your YEC interpretation of scripture. (Just making posts with lots references to GOD doesn't count)
 
Upvote 0

Phred

Junior Mint
Aug 12, 2003
5,373
998
✟22,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
No offense, if you don't want to take the challenge, don't; but don't try to unnecessarily convolute this to the point where the point I'm making can't be made.
And here we go... add on little rules and regulations until your point is a given. It's not AV. I can't convince someone of something that I can't find evidence for myself. So your challenge is answered. Here's an apple in my hand, I cannot convince anyone it appeared there ex nihilo and neither can you. If you really wish to convince me, go back to my post and answer my questions. Creation from nothing is impossible and until you find a way to show us all that it is possible there's no way your challenge is valid. Which is my point about creationism and has been all along. You jump to a point somewhere in the middle of the process and expect me to ignore that you haven't bothered to even try to explain the rest.

If creation "science" were really science they'd be trying to figure out what it meant when God "spoke" something into existence. But they know, you know and I know that there is no way to find out how that happened. Scientific inquiry into a fictional story will yield no fruit... not even apples.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oonna
Upvote 0

Phred

Junior Mint
Aug 12, 2003
5,373
998
✟22,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
God made Adam a perfect 30 year old man.
Chapter and verse please? I can't recall where Adam was referred to as a perfect thirty-year-old.

If ignorance is going to insist that 2 billion years is necessary to establish an environmentally stable world, then there is nothing GOD is going to do to dissuade that religious logic outside of a salvation revelation/awakening.
The only ignorance I see here is yours. Who says 2 billion years is necessary to establish an environmentally stable world?
 
Upvote 0

Psudopod

Godspeed, Spacebat
Apr 11, 2006
3,015
164
Bath
✟19,138.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
In Relationship
The apple thing is easily addressed.

You can't tell the apple is ex-nhilo because it is identical to a grown apple. If we have no evidence for spontenous apple generation, people will have no reason to assume it.

Same with the Earth. God could have created a planet identical to one that formed naturally, and we'd never know the difference. He's given it a 4.6 billion year history, same as you identical apple. We cannot tell either from the non supernatural versions because they've been created that way with false histories.

And more to the point, even if the earth was created 6000 years ago, it would be useless to know it, because all the useful knowledge we have about the world has come from studying the evidence that leads us to a 4.6billion year history.

So in conclusion AVET, even if you are right, there's still no reason to listen to you.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,677
52,517
Guam
✟5,131,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I can't convince someone of something that I can't find evidence for myself. So your challenge is answered.

The point of my Apple Challenge is to show that there is no evidence for ex nihilo Creation this side of omniscience.

Thus, only an all-powerful Creator God can do it; and not only that, He would have to document it.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,677
52,517
Guam
✟5,131,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The apple thing is easily addressed.

You can't tell the apple is ex-nhilo because it is identical to a grown apple. If we have no evidence for spontenous apple generation, people will have no reason to assume it.

Did you see my answer how it can be done --- with omniscience?
 
Upvote 0