"On White Privilege"

[SummerMadness]

Wow....So when A2SG relates some personal anecdotes, it's perfectly valid examples of racism. When I post similar experiences...they're immediately dismissed.

Why? Because I'm white?

Or is it because I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that the reason I was pulled over is racism?

Somehow you didn't understand what was written.

 

[A2SG]

Wow....So when A2SG relates some personal anecdotes, it's perfectly valid examples of racism. When I post similar experiences...they're immediately dismissed.

Why? Because I'm white?

Or is it because I don't immediately jump to the conclusion that the reason I was pulled over is racism?

Um, I never claimed that anecdote was an example of racism. I was illustrating white privilege, WHICH IS NOT THE SAME THING.

-- A2SG, kinda the point, there....

 

[Ana the Ist]

Which is why this problem won't be solved by creating laws, but by people seeing that the problem exists, and actively trying to counter these preconceptions.

-- A2SG, once upon a time, people were denied jobs because their names sounded "too irish" or "too italian".....my how far we've come....

Those people often changed the spelling and pronunciation of their names to get jobs. This is besides the point though....

If they're denying jobs to people with black "sounding" names...it's because they're racist and don't want to hire a black person. Making them aware of this won't change anything.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Somehow you didn't understand what was written.

Feel free to explain it then. It appeared as if A2 was trying to say that his black friend gets unfairly treated by police (because he's black) compared to A2 himself (because he's white).

I simply pointed out that I've had similar experiences as his black friend and I'm white.

 

[The Cadet]

If they're denying jobs to people with black "sounding" names...it's because they're racist and don't want to hire a black person. Making them aware of this won't change anything.

You'd be surprised. A lot of racists don't actually recognize their own biases, and if told about them, will try to correct the issue.

 

[A2SG]

Those people often changed the spelling and pronunciation of their names to get jobs.

Especially if they were jewish.

Ask yourself, have you ever had to do something like that?

This is besides the point though....

Not really. Don't you think that if some groups in this country feel the need to change their name to sound the same as names from another group, that indicates a form of preference for one group over the other?

If they're denying jobs to people with black "sounding" names...it's because they're racist and don't want to hire a black person. Making them aware of this won't change anything.

Which is why we keep saying we're not talking about racism here.

-- A2SG, by george, I think she may be getting it.....

 

[SummerMadness]

Feel free to explain it then. It appeared as if A2 was trying to say that his black friend gets unfairly treated by police (because he's black) compared to A2 himself (because he's white).

I simply pointed out that I've had similar experiences as his black friend and I'm white.

I was pointing out that when someone wants to relate their encounters with the police and claim there is no racism it's always they were driving. For many African Americans, the problem goes beyond driving. Getting pulled over is just one of the ways racist police encounters are experienced. Your story about being pulled over is very typical of those claiming similar experiences when they are not.

 

[ScottA]

Individual competitiveness is one thing; systems which favour one group over another are quite another. If you think this is some people complaining about a bit of competitiveness, you have spectacularly missed the point.

I'm happy to compete with the guys. I'm not happy to have to do it while my places of learning or employment or whatever effectively handicap me in that competition because I am a woman.

Therein lies the problem. You know who you are and what you are capable of. Why is it a competition at all?

The next thing you know you are at each other, and picking at each others weaknesses ... and that ... is not racism or prejudice. It's our competitive nature, it's insecurity...and when it gets ugly...we call it something it's not, and blame someone else.

...Sorry, I liked what you said before. But I hope you can see the [real] problem. Racism and prejudice are only symptoms.

 

[A2SG]

Feel free to explain it then. It appeared as if A2 was trying to say that his black friend gets unfairly treated by police (because he's black) compared to A2 himself (because he's white).

I simply pointed out that I've had similar experiences as his black friend and I'm white.

Are they similar experiences? You said that, out of two dozen examples of being pulled over, 3 were legitimate and 8 were due to it being a "late night speed trap."

Compare to my friend, who has been pulled over more than 30 times in three different states throughout his life. And, for the record, he's barely 30 years old.

But don't take my anecdotal evidence alone. Ask any black person, chances are they'll have similar stories.

-- A2SG, as summer madness has illustrated.....

 

[SummerMadness]

Those people often changed the spelling and pronunciation of their names to get jobs. This is besides the point though....

If they're denying jobs to people with black "sounding" names...it's because they're racist and don't want to hire a black person. Making them aware of this won't change anything.

Because being black in America is like coming from another country. Perhaps they should change their names to conform to the country they were born in. Somehow the endemic racism of that attitude is missed.

 

[ScottA]

And this is why we don't see things like black people getting arrested at a far higher rate for crimes that are equally common among black and white people. This is why we don't see a far higher degree of interest from law enforcement based on skin color. This is why black people aren't far more likely to get shot in unarmed encounters with the police.

Except none of that is true. You can shove these issues off as "exceptions" all you want, but when you get statistics like that across the whole system, the word "exception" has lost its meaning.

See #568.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You'd be surprised. A lot of racists don't actually recognize their own biases, and if told about them, will try to correct the issue.

So you're claiming that they're racist and don't realize it....and would stop being racist if they did realize it?

Let me ask you then...why do you think they subconsciously avoid hiring blacks?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Page 9. The post begins "I'll be blunt. There is no white privileged really. We are all equal."

You're referring to the disabled guy? You understand how he might not see all these advantages his skin color grants him because of, you know, his disability....right?

 

[The Cadet]

So you're claiming that they're racist and don't realize it....and would stop being racist if they did realize it?

Let me ask you then...why do you think they subconsciously avoid hiring blacks?

I don't know. I do however know quite a few people who, when called on their racism, took steps to remedy it, and seemed genuinely confused that what they were saying or doing was racist. Our attitudes toward race are heavily ingrained, often in ways we don't notice until we pay attention to them, and a lot of people who have these attitudes but don't notice probably don't consider themselves racists.

 

[dzheremi]

You're referring to the disabled guy? You understand how he might not see all these advantages his skin color grants him because of, you know, his disability....right?

Ooo...this is embarrassing...

I myself am severely physically disabled, as I mentioned in my reply to the post in question, on page 10...

Just because I cannot walk or stand unassisted, that does not mean that I am somehow not a white person. Disability-based hardships (including discrimination, which does exist and which I experience fairly routinely) and skin color-based privilege or disadvantage are not the same type of experience, and quite frankly, as a disabled person, I find it highly offensive that someone would suggest that one somehow negates the other or can be substituted for the other. I am not racially discriminated against or racially disfavored in a systematic way to any degree, and the suggestion that the struggles that disabled people face such as myself face can be used to deny the experiences of another type of minority that also experiences discrimination due to things beyond their control like their skin color is just so many layers of wrong I don't even have words for it.

This entire exchange just feels so gross. I know you probably didn't see my reply (or I least I assume you didn't, or else your reply would seem extra-callous in a way that I just can't imagine being on purpose), but now that you know, can you please come up with some other way of making your point that doesn't exploit people like me in order to further your own argument? I'm not just personally not buying it (for all I know, the poster you're referring to might agree with you; that's their business), I'm saying that you don't need to ever bring up another person's bad circumstances in order to pit two types of people you aren't against each other like that. This is not a "who has it worst" competition, or if it is I do not want to be included in it, even by accident.

 

[pakicetus]

You're referring to the disabled guy? You understand how he might not see all these advantages his skin color grants him because of, you know, his disability....right?

All things considered, disabled white people might not be privileged over healthy black people, but they're certainly privileged over disabled black people. That's always been true, by the way. Do you think white privilege didn't exist in the Jim Crow era South, just because some white people had disabilities?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ooo...this is embarrassing...

I myself am severely physically disabled, as I mentioned in my reply to the post in question, on page 10...

Just because I cannot walk or stand unassisted, that does not mean that I am somehow not a white person. Disability-based hardships (including discrimination, which does exist and which I experience fairly routinely) and skin color-based privilege or disadvantage are not the same type of experience, and quite frankly, as a disabled person, I find it highly offensive that someone would suggest that one somehow negates the other or can be substituted for the other. I am not racially discriminated against or racially disfavored in a systematic way to any degree, and the suggestion that the struggles that disabled people face such as myself face can be used to deny the experiences of another type of minority that also experiences discrimination due to things beyond their control like their skin color is just so many layers of wrong I don't even have words for it.

This entire exchange just feels so gross. I know you probably didn't see my reply (or I least I assume you didn't, or else your reply would seem extra-callous in a way that I just can't imagine being on purpose), but now that you know, can you please come up with some other way of making your point that doesn't exploit people like me in order to further your own argument? I'm not just personally not buying it (for all I know, the poster you're referring to might agree with you; that's their business), I'm saying that you don't need to ever bring up another person's bad circumstances in order to pit two types of people you aren't against each other like that. This is not a "who has it worst" competition, or if it is I do not want to be included in it, even by accident.

Wow...was it you who i already explained this to once when you totally missed my point the first time? Tell me if any of this sounds familiar...

We all have advantages and disadvantages. All of us. Black, whites, disabled, beautiful, dumb, etc.

The problem I have with threads like these is they aren't discussions about advantages or disadvantages...privileges or whatever the opposite of privileges are....they're just a long soapbox polemic about blaming whites. It's never a discussion about how you should pick yourself up, recognize your disadvantages, and work that much harder to overcome them.

Nope, it's a one-way complaint-fest about how your problems are someone else's fault (by which I mean whites) and everyone has to change so you don't ever have to find yourself working harder to overcome these disadvantages.

A discussion would include an exchange of ideas. Ideas like "is what you perceive as racism actually always racism?"....and "can we actually attribute some spurious statistics to show that genuine racism is occurring?"

Go back a few posts and take a look at how my personal experiences with the police got immediately dismissed since they didn't neatly fit into the narrative of "white privilege". I didn't even have time to mention how only one of the times I was pulled over that the cop was black...it would seem that all those other cops forgot about my white privilege.

I get that you're offended...I do. You're right that your obstacles as a disabled person aren't the same obstacles that a black person faces. How dare I suggest that the problem of not being able to enter a building without a ramp might be more significant than the name of a particular color of band-aid? Where's my head? I'm willing to bet that employers practically throw jobs at you since you're not named Jamal...right?

Can you drive a car? If you can, I wouldn't advertise that fact...you wouldn't want it to be compared with the hardships of driving while black.

 

[Ana the Ist]

All things considered, disabled white people might not be privileged over healthy black people, but they're certainly privileged over disabled black people. That's always been true, by the way. Do you think white privilege didn't exist in the Jim Crow era South, just because some white people had disabilities?

Again...you missed the point as well.

I agree his statement that white privilege doesn't exist is wrong...but you're also wrong if you don't think other disadvantages make life far more difficult for others than simply being black.

This isn't the Jim Crow era, so drop the straw-men.

If a white man has an IQ of 72 and multiple learning disabilities...then yes, your opinion about him being "privileged" over you because he's white is dumb. He's under no obligation to acknowledge your hardships of being black. There's no real debate about which of his problems are a result of his disability and which are imagined.

 

[pakicetus]

The problem I have with threads like these is they aren't discussions about advantages or disadvantages...privileges or whatever the opposite of privileges are....they're just a long soapbox polemic about blaming whites.

That isn't true. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but none of the posts I've seen "blame whites" for anything. Many white people aren't racist and don't contribute to white privilege.

Nope, it's a one-way complaint-fest about how your problems are someone else's fault (by which I mean whites) and everyone has to change so you don't ever have to find yourself working harder to overcome these disadvantages.

Minorities should work harder to overcome their disadvantages. They just shouldn't have to, because discrimination against minorities is deeply unjust. You haven't shown any sign that you care about that, since you keep trying to deny it, minimize its importance, or change the subject to something else, like the number of blacks you think fit racial stereotypes.

You've admitted to me in the past that you're aware of the evidence for white privilege and that you believe it exists. Yet now you're acting like you don't understand it at all, and arguing against absurd straw men. Do you really believe white privilege implies disabled people aren't disadvantaged or employers are "practically throwing jobs at" everyone who isn't named Jamal?

 

[The Cadet]

The problem I have with threads like these is they aren't discussions about advantages or disadvantages...privileges or whatever the opposite of privileges are....they're just a long soapbox polemic about blaming whites.

And now you're repeating the same obnoxious strawman as nightflight. Well done.