On what basis Does God Elect?

[Hupomone10]

The Bible assumes that "whoever believes" is available to all.

The group "whosoever believes" is limited to "whosoever believes", ie, the ones who believe.

Only after they believe. Initially, "whosoever" is the part that is available to all.

 

[Hupomone10]

3) Also how does this remove human boasting, which is what the passage is about?...
Here's your soteriology: "You chose God, so God in return chose you, therefore, you cannot boast!"

Hmm, "I am a loser who only accepted the Gospel because I lacked the worldly prowess to survive without it" doesn't have much of a boastful ring to it.

Dies-I,

I may be stating the obvious to you, but many people who have bought into this idea that to choose to trust in Christ as Savior is somehow boasting do so because they have heard this taught many times from pulpit and book. It is taking a good and scriptural idea - that what a man does in the form of works to earn God's favor results in boasting - and taking it too far and applying it to faith. This is something that Scripture never does. Paul always contrasts works and faith, works and grace. Works (physical actions) are presented as something one can wrongly boast about, but faith is never presented as a thing that someone could wrongly boast about in Scripture. Neither is the decision to believe in Christ presented as something that could be boasted in as though that were a bad thing.

This is, I'm convinced, totally a straw man created by sincere men who believe emphatically that faith must be a gift given prior to regeneration to certain elect people and to no others, and that any other understanding of faith is boasting and therefore of the flesh and not of God.

As I say, I may be stating the obvious to you. But that is why it seems to be such a die-hard issue with some people and why some seem willing to fight to the death over it. It is certainly why your version of faith (and mine) is often presented as boasting, although I have never boasted about having no right to Holy God whatsoever apart from the death of Christ in whom I place my trust.

I'm not suggesting it of any on this site or thread, but no doubt many people who have been thus falsely indoctrinated regarding the nature of faith in the Lord, have had nothing more than an enlightenment from God about the truth of Christ, and regard this enlightenment alone - apart from any commitment faith - to be salvation. Having been so indoctrinated, they will actually run from the suggestion that they should personally choose to believe in Christ as Savior, and recoil at such a thought as though it were from the flesh at best or from the devil himself at worst.

Blessings,

H.

 

[DeaconDean]

Jacobus Arminus on Faith in God and Christ:

Faith, generally, is the assent given to truth; and divine faith is that which is given to truth divinely revealed. The foundation on which divine faith rests is two-fold - the one external and out of or beyond the mind - the other internal and in the mind. The external foundation of faith is the very veracity of God who makes the declaration, and who can declare nothing that is false. The internal foundation of faith is two-fold - both the general idea by which we know that God is true - and the knowledge by which we know that it is the word of God. Faith is also two-fold, according to the mode of revelation, being both legal and evangelical, of which the latter comes under our present consideration, and tends to God and Christ.

Evangelical faith is an assent of the mind, produced by the Holy Spirit, through the gospel, in sinners, who, through the law, know and acknowledge their sins, and are penitent on account of them, by which they are not only fully persuaded within themselves that Jesus Christ has been constituted by God the author of salvation to those who obey him, and that he is their own saviour if they have believed in him, and by which they also believe in him as such, and through him on God as the benevolent Father in him, to the salvation of believers and to the glory of Christ and God.

The object of faith is not only the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, but likewise Christ himself who is here constituted by God the author of salvation to those that obey him. The form is the assent that is given to an object of this description; which assent is not acquired by a course of reasoning from principles known by nature; but it is an assent infused above the order of nature, which, yet, is confirmed and increased by the daily exercises of prayers and mortification of the flesh, and by the practice of good works. Knowledge is antecedent to faith; for the Son of God is beheld before a sinner believes on him. But trust or confidence is consequent to it; for, through faith, confidence is placed in Christ, and through him in God.

The author of faith is the Holy Spirit, whom the Son sends from the Father, as his advocate and substitute, who may manage his cause in the world and against it. The instrument is the gospel, or the word of faith, containing the meaning concerning God and Christ which the Spirit proposes to the understanding, and of which he there works a persuasion. The subject in which it resides, is the mind, not only as it acknowledges this object to be true, but likewise to be good, which the word of the gospel declares. Wherefore, it belongs not only to the theoretical understanding, but likewise to that of the affections, which is practical. The subject to which [it is directed], or the object about which [it is occupied], is sinful man, acknowledging his sins, and penitent on account of them. For this faith is necessary for salvation to him who believes; but it is unnecessary to one who is not a sinner; and, therefore, no one except a sinner, can know or acknowledge Christ for his saviour, for he is the saviour of sinners. The end, which we intend for our own benefit, is salvation in its nature. But the chief end is the glory of God through Jesus Christ.

Jacobus Arminus on Faith in God and Christ

What is said here, the Holy Spirit works in the mind to awaken inherant faith by the gospel ("an assent of the mind, produced by the Holy Spirit, through the gospel, in sinners"). This proven true in that "The author of faith is the Holy Spirit, whom the Son sends from the Father, as his advocate and substitute...is the mind, not only as it acknowledges this object to be true, but likewise to be good, which the word of the gospel declares."

While the gospel is the message, the Holy Spirit works to awaken inherant faith in man to the point that: "sinful man, acknowledging his sins, and penitent on account of them."

Arminians do not teach that they conjure up their own faith.

Your right, he taught the Holy Spirit on awkens inherant faith already in man.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hammster]

I don't have any suggestions as to how Paul should have written it; I think he did just fine. The problem is that you are reading your Calvinist presuppositions into the text. Nothing in this passage indicates that Paul is promoting individualistic predestination.

Okay, then show me how, from the text, that you come up with the view that God calls those who believe. And where in chapter 8 does Paul switch from individuals to corporate? Also, why us Romans 8:28-30 corporate, but 1 Cor 1 individualistic? What in the langue Paul uses leads you to this conclusion?

 

[Hupomone10]

Okay, then show me how, from the text, that you come up with the view that God calls those who believe. And where in chapter 8 does Paul switch from individuals to corporate?

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

 

[dies-l]

Okay, then show me how, from the text, that you come up with the view that God calls those who believe. And where in chapter 8 does Paul switch from individuals to corporate? Also, why us Romans 8:28-30 corporate, but 1 Cor 1 individualistic? What in the langue Paul uses leads you to this conclusion?

I had written out a rather length response, and then lost it because my browser took me to the wrong page. I don't have it in me to type it all out again, but basically, I don't see where you are getting individualism out of 1 Cor 1, either. Both passages address the Christian community as a whole, not in an individualistic capacity. 1 Cor 1 describes the types of people who are drawn to the gospel. Likewise, I don't see this individualism you are talking about in Romans 8, either. Both passages address Christian community, how it comes about, and how it is blessed.

ETA: to answer your first question: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him".


In other words, the grammar of the sentence says, "people love God" then "God works for their good". Not the other way around. Who loves God? The church. Whose good does God work for, then? The church. Who is the church? Those who believe and love God.

 

[Skala]

Only after they believe. Initially, "whosoever" is the part that is available to all.

You know there's no such thing as the word "whosoever" in the Greek language right?

Whosoever believes is the literally translation of the phrase "pas ho pisteuwn" which is, literally "all the believing". So "whoever believes" includes only those who meet the qualification: believes. It does not include those who do not believe.

There's two kinds of people: Whosoever believes, and whosoever does not believe.

John 3:16 for example does not apply to the unbelievers. God demonstrated his love for the world by sending his son to save all the believers. Notice the verse does not say "so that everyone could have eternal life", but rather "so that the believers have eternal life"

John 3:16 is one of most particular/limiting verses in the whole Bible.

 

[Skala]

The clear teaching from the Bible is that salvation is the gift of God; and eternal life and the Holy Spirit also I believe are referred to as the gift of God.

Salvation includes believe.

Part of being saved by God is being brought to faith by God. It's all God's work. By grace.

This is Paul's point in Eph 2:8-9. Being saved by grace through faith is the gift of God, IT IS NOT YOUR OWN DOING, so that no man can boast.

You'd think that would end the debate. Only Calvinists can consistently say with Paul "the fact that I believe in Jesus is 100% God's doing, not mine".

 

[Skala]

Dies: I noticed you never provided a single Bible exegesis for your strange idea that election is somehow not personal in nature but rather God simply predestined a faceless, nameless, corporate group of people. Then, it's up to the people themselves whether or not to "get in" to the group called "the church" so that they can be predestined.

All the predestination verses in the Bible are personal and individualistic in nature. You'd have to be reading your own ideas into the text to come away with anything else.

 

[dies-l]

Dies: I noticed you never provided a single Bible exegesis for your strange idea that election is somehow not personal in nature but rather God simply predestined a faceless, nameless, corporate group of people. Then, it's up to the people themselves whether or not to "get in" to the group called "the church" so that they can be predestined.

Well, if that's what you've noticed, then I suppose you are not paying attention to anything that does not support your view. And, if that is the case, then this discussion is all for naught. Your observation is simply not true. I don't know how else to to say it. Oh well.

All the predestination verses in the Bible are personal and individualistic in nature. You'd have to be reading your own ideas into the text to come away with anything else.

Hmm. I would say that you would have to be reading your own ideas into the text to come away with an individualistic interpretation of any of the verses provided. But, since you seem to be disregarding any exegesis that I provide on the topic, I don't suppose that there is much purpose in my continuing this discussion with you. No point in conversing with someone who refuses to acknowledge what they don't agree with.

 

[DeaconDean]

Okay, then show me how, from the text, that you come up with the view that God calls those who believe. And where in chapter 8 does Paul switch from individuals to corporate?

God only knows.

But I do know that "election" and /or predestination to a lesser degree was "individualistic in the Old Testament:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." -Jer. 1:6 (KJV)

Now was this a "corporate" calling, or was it an "individual" one, I can't remember?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hammster]

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

Would you care to explain how that shows that God calls believers?

 

[Hammster]

I had written out a rather length response, and then lost it because my browser took me to the wrong page. I don't have it in me to type it all out again, but basically, I don't see where you are getting individualism out of 1 Cor 1, either. Both passages address the Christian community as a whole, not in an individualistic capacity. 1 Cor 1 describes the types of people who are drawn to the gospel. Likewise, I don't see this individualism you are talking about in Romans 8, either. Both passages address Christian community, how it comes about, and how it is blessed.

ETA: to answer your first question: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him".

In other words, the grammar of the sentence says, "people love God" then "God works for their good". Not the other way around. Who loves God? The church. Whose good does God work for, then? The church. Who is the church? Those who believe and love God.

One step at a time.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (Rom8:9)

Is Paul speaking corporately or us he referring to individuals?

 

[dies-l]

One step at a time.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (Rom8:9)

Is Paul speaking corporately or us he referring to individuals?

The context would indicate that he is talking to the Roman church. And, he indicates that whoever is not part of that collective you does not "have the Spirit of Christ" and "do not belong to him."

 

[Hammster]

The context would indicate that he is talking to the Roman church. And, he indicates that whoever is not part of that collective you does not "have the Spirit of Christ" and "do not belong to him."

So "anyone who" could be interpreted as "any church that". Is that correct?

 

[dies-l]

So "anyone who" could be interpreted as "any church that". Is that correct?

No. That is not at all what I said, and I think you know that. "Whoever" or "anyone who" likely does refer to individuals, families, and others who are outside of the church and are therefore outside of Christ.

 

[Hammster]

No. That is not at all what I said, and I think you know that. "Whoever" or "anyone who" likely does refer to individuals, families, and others who are outside of the church and are therefore outside of Christ.

My bad, bro. I misread my own reference. I see where you are coming from. Let's look at 8:5 because I really am trying to understand where you see this as being corporate without presupposing that it is.

For those [churches] who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those [churches] who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Is this how you understand this to mean?

 

[dies-l]

My bad, bro. I misread my own reference. I see where you are coming from. Let's look at 8:5 because I really am trying to understand where you see this as being corporate without presupposing that it is.

For those [churches] who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those [churches] who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Is this how you understand this to mean?

"Those" obviously refers to people. Not "churches". Not "person". For those [people] (notice the plural here) who live according to the flesh . . . " It could have said "for each person who . . . ." but it doesn't, because Paul was not focused on individuals, but on communities of people.

 

[Hupomone10]

[/FONT]

You know there's no such thing as the word "whosoever" in the Greek language right?

Whosoever believes is the literally translation of the phrase "pas ho pisteuwn" which is, literally "all the believing". So "whoever believes" includes only those who meet the qualification: believes. It does not include those who do not believe.
There's two kinds of people: Whosoever believes, and whosoever does not believe.

ok.

John 3:16 for example does not apply to the unbelievers. God demonstrated his love for the world by sending his son to save all the believers. Notice the verse does not say "so that everyone could have eternal life", but rather "so that the believers have eternal life"

John 3:16 is one of most particular/limiting verses in the whole Bible.

This shall go down as one of my all-time favorite quotes from 5-pointers. I hope you don't mind. This statement does a lot to clarify the difference between 5-pointers and other Calvinists, the restatement of one of the most popular general verses in the Bible to make it support limited atonement. This should show readers to what extent we will go to to defend our doctrine once it becomes an integral part of our faith, IOW once our faith and security in part depends on defending it. Once we start looking through pink-tinted glasses, everything has a tint of pink to it.

Having said that, thanks for the insight into the above mentioned word "whosoever" and since I am on a journey of discovery and support of truth rather than support of Self's preconceived or current doctrinal perspectives, I shall study this further.

Blessings,
H.

 

[savedfromdistruction]

Okay, I know election to be true because the Bible teaches it but where I am still confused is the area of how and why God elects certain individuals and not others.

The way I was tought growing up was that God calls and then its up to us to respond to his call, so if this is the case then does God elect upon the basis of knowing who would respond to his offer of salvation and who would not?

To me thats the only way I can see it and because we are told in the scriptures of warnings against hardening our hearts etc so apparently when God calls we have the choice to respond to his call or to turn away and harden our hearts.

Robert,
what we know from scripture is that God elects. We also know we must repent and believe. Both are true but scripture does not explain how it works. The best thing is to believe both and not try and figure it out. It is like Jesus being a man who was able to die and also being God who cannot die. Accept both without understanding how. What you can be sure of is that election is not based on knowing ahead of time who will accept as that would make God subject to man and at some point having to look ahead to know.