On what basis Does God Elect?

[Hammster]

Those who believe. Notice that the passage uses plural pronouns through out
"those who love him", "those God foreknew", "those he predestined". Nothing here to indicate that he predestined any one individual to salvation or condemnation. Rather, this shows a grouping of people who were predestined, that group being those who would believe in Christ.

I can see how you would see this verse as supporting individualistic predestination, but it only does so if you approach Scripture with a relatively modern individualistic worldview. Individualism is simply not a biblical concept.

Since Paul is writing to a group of people, and the whole epistle is about a group of people, how else would he phrase it? Are you saying that "those" should be understood as "those groups"? And if so, couldn't those groups be the predestined elect?

One other thing to consider is that those who love God are those who are called according to His purpose. They aren't called because they love Him. If they already loved Him, they wouldn't need to be called.

 

[Hammster]

I believe there are so many facets involved in God's election that it cannot easily be put down in a couple of sentences, and that this is why Scripture merely says that God elects without greatly explaining the basis other than to say it is not based on man's attainment, achievement or progress, inherent goodness (or inherent badness).

Of one thing I'm pretty sure: an election scenario similar to the one where a bunch of criminals are lined up in a row, and God picks one to elect and the others not to elect, with the implication that all other factors are equal, is way to simplistic. And because of that, it is also in error. God doesn't just look at people all lined up, and pick one but not pick another.

H.

For the most part, I agree with this. While scripture reveals WHAT God does, it rarely reveals WHY He does it in specifics. Mostly we are told that He does what He does for His glory.

 

[Skala]

I agree, and that is EXACTLY why I do not agree with individualist predestination and election.

Dies, I'm confused by your response.

The passage quoted (1 Cor) explicitly teaches predestination not based on what humans have done, and from this, you conclude that you deny predestination? lol...

 

[Skala]

Arminians do not say that they conjure up their own faith.

Yes, they do, as they deny that faith is a gift from God, despite the Bible's clear teaching that it is.

 

[Skala]

The Bible assumes that "whoever believes" is available to all.

The group "whosoever believes" is limited to "whosoever believes", ie, the ones who believe.

 

[dies-l]

Since Paul is writing to a group of people, and the whole epistle is about a group of people, how else would he phrase it? Are you saying that "those" should be understood as "those groups"? And if so, couldn't those groups be the predestined elect?

One other thing to consider is that those who love God are those who are called according to His purpose. They aren't called because they love Him. If they already loved Him, they wouldn't need to be called.

I don't have any suggestions as to how Paul should have written it; I think he did just fine. The problem is that you are reading your Calvinist presuppositions into the text. Nothing in this passage indicates that Paul is promoting individualistic predestination.

 

[dies-l]

Dies, I'm confused by your response.

The passage quoted (1 Cor) explicitly teaches predestination not based on what humans have done, and from this, you conclude that you deny predestination? lol...

Where have I denied predestination? I fully accept that God predestined those who would believe. I don't accept individualistic predestination.And, biblical predestination is not based on what people have done. It is based on what God has done, yet humans still have the opportunity to respond to not.

 

[Skala]

Where have I denied predestination? I fully accept that God predestined those who would believe. I don't accept individualistic predestination.And, biblical predestination is not based on what people have done. It is based on what God has done, yet humans still have the opportunity to respond to not.

Fair enough, but let me ask you three questions:

1) Where does the Bible teach that god predestines based on who will believe, esp. in light of certain verses I've already given you in John, as well as something like acts 13:48 which states "the ones ordained to eternal life believed". They believed on account of being ordained, not vice versa. (other translations: appointed)

2) Since 1 COr teaches that God chose the foolish, weak, despised, etc, how does that fit into your soteriology? Did God just get lucky that those were the kinds of people that coincidentally responded to the gospel?

3) Also how does this remove human boasting, which is what the passage is about?

Here's what the passage is about: "God chose the weak, foolish, despised, to shame the strong, the wise, he did it on purpose to remove room to boast from the chosen ones.

Here's your soteriology: "You chose God, so God in return chose you, therefore, you cannot boast!"

Um, how does that remove human boasting? It makes the passage utter nonsense. How does it follow that Your choice of God sparked God's choice of you, therefore, you have no room to boast? It doesn't. In fact, you still have room to boast, because your choice of God is what caused his choice of you. (and as #2 said, how did God in fact choose the weak, foolish, base? Did he just get lucky that those were the types of people that responded to the gospel?)

Basically what i'm driving at is that your soteriology has no place for this passage. It doesn't fit anywhere. Like two puzzle pieces that don't fit together.

 

[DeaconDean]

Where have I denied predestination? I fully accept that God predestined those who would believe. I don't accept individualistic predestination.And, biblical predestination is not based on what people have done. It is based on what God has done, yet humans still have the opportunity to respond to not.

I have to admit, you confuse me also.

You say:

I fully accept that God predestined those who would believe.

And yet, you also say in the same post:

biblical predestination is not based on what people have done. It is based on what God has done, yet humans still have the opportunity to respond to not

So, are you of the camp that believes that one is predestinated only after they believe?

And if it is "the opportunity to respond to not", then it is still based on a work (you accepting and believing which puts predestination after the point of salvation) and not upon grace by faith nor is it according to his own good pleasure.

You want to give some credit to the total doctrine of predestination, but you still hang on to man adding to God's works, i.e.: accepting and believing.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Skala]

Good call. Dies says he believes predestination is not based on what men do, but then turns around and asserts that they are predestined based on their faith!

Such a contradiction.

 

[RobertZ]

Yes, they do, as they deny that faith is a gift from God, despite the Bible's clear teaching that it is.

No, they do not. Arminians do in fact teach that faith is a gift from God and that apart from the Holy Ghost no one will seek God.

 

[dies-l]

Good call. Dies says he believes predestination is not based on what men do, but then turns around and asserts that they are predestined based on their faith!

Such a contradiction.

Not a contradiction for a anyone who does not embrace the individualistic worldview that you are presupposing. Predestination is NOT about individuals and their salvation. It IS about the salvation of the church, being those who believe. Of course this would be confusing for one who believes that everything is all about the individual (a rather modern worldview). The Bible, however, speaks much more about and to communities than to and about individuals. And, Paul, when he speaks of predestination is referring to a community of people who are predestined to salvation; that community is called the church; it is made up of people who believe in Jesus. God does not predetermine who will become a member of the church, only that his church is redeemed by his grace.

 

[dies-l]

Fair enough, but let me ask you three questions:

1) Where does the Bible teach that god predestines based on who will believe, esp. in light of certain verses I've already given you in John, as well as something like acts 13:48 which states "the ones ordained to eternal life believed". They believed on account of being ordained, not vice versa. (other translations: appointed)

Predestination is not based on "who will believe". Predestination is for the church and it is unconditional. If one becomes a part of the church, he or she may reap the benefit of the church's election, but this is not the same as saying that "predestination is based on who will believe".

2) Since 1 COr teaches that God chose the foolish, weak, despised, etc, how does that fit into your soteriology? Did God just get lucky that those were the kinds of people that coincidentally responded to the gospel?

The Gospel is foolishness (Paul's words, not mine). People who will not abandon worldly wisdom, strength, status, etc, will never accept it. The only people who will accept something so foolish are those who are foolish, weak, despised, desperate, etc. It is not a coincidence at all. It is the same reason that people with MBAs and law degrees generally are not found flipping burgers at McDonald's. The type of person you are and what you think of yourself will inevitably affect your willingness to accept such a "foolish" gospel.

3) Also how does this remove human boasting, which is what the passage is about?

Hmm, "I am a loser who only accepted the Gospel because I lacked the worldly prowess to survive without it" doesn't have much of a boastful ring to it.

Here's what the passage is about: "God chose the weak, foolish, despised, to shame the strong, the wise, he did it on purpose to remove room to boast from the chosen ones.

Here's your soteriology: "You chose God, so God in return chose you, therefore, you cannot boast!"

Hey, if you don't understand something that I am saying, then ask. Putting words in my mouth makes me think that you are not really interested in what I have to say, but just in proving me wrong. Especially when the words you put in my mouth are nothing like anything I would actually say.

Basically what i'm driving at is that your soteriology has no place for this passage. It doesn't fit anywhere. Like two puzzle pieces that don't fit together.

But, I have shown you how it does. (which is generally why it is a good idea to wait to see if your questions are answered before you conclude that they cannot be and that you have therefore proven your point )

I think you would see where I am coming from a bit better if you were to abandon your radically individualistic worldview.

 

[DeaconDean]

Not a contradiction for a anyone who does not embrace the individualistic worldview that you are presupposing. Predestination is NOT about individuals and their salvation. It IS about the salvation of the church, being those who believe. Of course this would be confusing for one who believes that everything is all about the individual (a rather modern worldview). The Bible, however, speaks much more about and to communities than to and about individuals. And, Paul, when he speaks of predestination is referring to a community of people who are predestined to salvation; that community is called the church; it is made up of people who believe in Jesus. God does not predetermine who will become a member of the church, only that his church is redeemed by his grace.

Even if what you suppose is true, you still have that flavor of something man will do to be added, i.e.: accepting and beliving.

“This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense “to foreordain” “to predestinate.” Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizein is a stronger form of opizein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: “h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai, Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, “hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn,” 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: “proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou ,” Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, “proopizw”, p. 456, K. L. Schmidt.

WE are not predestinated because we accept and believe or will accept and believe, we are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Did the "predestination" (and I use this word very, very loosely) of the disciples hinge on a community or individual level?

Me thinks it was the latter.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

RobertZ stated:

Arminians do not say that they conjure up their own faith.

and this was your reply:

Yes, they [Arminians] do, as they deny that faith is a gift from God, despite the Bible's clear teaching that it is.

This kind of comment shows that you do not know the Arminian view of soteriology and saving faith. Part of #5 of the “Statement of Faith” of the evangelical Arminians states this about the gift of faith and the ability to believe:

In and of themselves and apart from the grace of God human beings can neither think, will, nor do anything good, including believe. But the prevenient grace of God prepares and enables sinners to receive the free gift of salvation offered in Christ and his gospel. Only through the grace of God can sinners believe and so be regenerated by the Holy Spirit unto salvation and spiritual life.

This is a good summary of grace and faith from an Arminian perspective:

Freed by Grace {to Believe} (Article 4)

• Because of Total Depravity and Atonement for All (as described above), God calls all people everywhere to repent and believe the gospel, and graciously enables those who hear the gospel to respond to it positively in faith.
• God regenerates those who believe in Christ (faith logically precedes regeneration).
• God’s saving grace is resistible, which is to say that he dispenses his calling, drawing, and convicting grace (which would bring us to salvation if responded to with faith) in such a way that we may reject it. Those who hear the gospel may either accept it by grace or reject it to their own eternal destruction.
• Apart from the realm of pleasing the Lord and doing spiritual good, people often have free will, which means that, with respect to an action, they can at least either do the action or refrain from doing it. People often have genuine choices and are therefore correspondingly able to make choices.
• God has ultimate and absolute free will. His choice to supernaturally free the will of sinners by his grace to believe in Christ is a matter of the exercise of his own free will and sovereignty.

Your view of an Arminian understanding of faith is sadly lacking.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No, they do not. Arminians do in fact teach that faith is a gift from God and that apart from the Holy Ghost no one will seek God.

Thanks for affirming this as a correct view of faith as a gift from God, as Arminians understand faith. I find the classical Arminian (Jacob Arminius) view of salvation to have less questionable areas than the Calvinistic view.

Oz

 

[RobertZ]

Thanks for affirming this as a correct view of faith as a gift from God, as Arminians understand faith. I find the classical Arminian (Jacob Arminius) view of salvation to have less questionable areas than the Calvinistic view.

Oz

No problem, im still not sure what position I stand for but I have certainly studied both sides enough to know that Arminians do not teach that they conjure up their own faith.

 

[RobertZ]

Isn't this the answer that you are seeking? Since God commands all to repent, those who choose to respond positively to God's command when the Gospel is presented, are saved. Those who reject, are damned.

Sincerely, Oz

Right on, I believe all that I need to be concerned with is doing what God commands. Trying to figure out how everything works is something I dont think God called any of us to do.

 

[RobertZ]

faceofbear and everyone else thanks for your thoughts and input to my thread.

 

[Hupomone10]

Yes, they do, as they deny that faith is a gift from God, despite the Bible's clear teaching that it is.

The clear teaching from the Bible is that salvation is the gift of God; and eternal life and the Holy Spirit also I believe are referred to as the gift of God.

This is probably why we are never told to "get the Holy Spirit" or "get eternal life" but we are told to "believe." There are some interesting thoughts on faith I read today, which I'll post in the other thread (the difference between faith and belief) since they fit there better.

Confidence, courage, fear, arrogance, pride, these things are attitudes. And as such, they cannot strictly speaking be given to someone as if they were a quantity of something like water that can be given. They are attitudes that are given through events and circumstances working in the life work together to develop those attitudes and perspectives. Faith works the same way. It is the attitude of believing - confidence in another - and as such cannot be given since it is not a quantity. God grants faith by causing all things (events/circumstances) to work together for good.

Blessings,
H.