*On Virginity* What the Holy Scriptures Teach

[sunlover1]

Concerning virgins:
So then he that giveth [her] in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth [her] not in marriage doeth better.


I will take his authority over my own.

Right, I mean over God's desire.

I have 5 children. I am aware of the other side.

LOL.
Yeah, that's not what I meant.

I mean, the thread is interesting, but
God did create man and woman before
the fall, told them, before the fall,
to go forth and multiply, and He said
that the two would become one flesh.

Theres nothing inferior or bad in that.
God liked what He did.

God said when a man finds a wife
he finds a good thing.

According to the Bible, Mary was
married, had sex with her husband
and had other children.

That is what the Bible says, and it's
not at all ambiguous.

If we don't choose truth in small things,
will the Spirit of truth bother to show
us truth anymore?

 

[Asinner]

Hi Asinner, have a slight issue with what you said in your original post - [sorry haven't quite figured out how to only quote part of a post yet] - but what you said was:

" She is our first Christian and she was perfect, both physically and spiritually. Through her Godly example, she leads us to Christ."

canyou give any biblical evidence that Mary was perfect?

Jarvo

Hi Jarvo

It's nice to see some new faces.

There are many, many Scripture references to the Theotokos. There are OT prophecies of her and there are those in the NT, that give us a glimpse into her character. She was Humble . . . Behold the handmaid of the Lord . . . She was Obedient . . . be it unto me according to thy word. She is venerated by both men and angels . . . And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women and it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb. She is confessed as the mother of God . . . And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? She suffered . . . Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. She Loved . . . Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother. She was Pure . . . How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

From the Old Testament:
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]OT Prophecy and Mary in the Church Fathers[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]A) The Church Fathers understood Ezekiel 44:2 to be a typology of the perpetual virginity of Mary: “And the LORD said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut." The gate of the womb of Mary (the God bearer) was left sacred. For another to enter it would not be proper.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) Psalm 67: "the mountain of God is a fertile mountain, a bedewed mountain, a fertile mountain; why gaze you with envy, O ye bedewed mountains? for this is the mountain in which God hath deigned to dwell." Mary, according to the exposition of the Church, is the"mountain fertile, and bedewed by the Spirit” a prophecy of the virgin birth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]2) Christ’s Mother would come from the clan of David: "a staff shall spring forth from the root of Jesse, and a flower shall come up from his root; and the Spirit of God will rest upon him." (Isaiah. 11, 1, 2; 53, 2). The Church understands the Virgin Mary to be that "staff." "A staff did Isaiah call Thee: from it did a beauteous blossom -- Christ [our] God come forth unto us." The expression: "the root of Jesse," coming from the Hebrew for: a stump, a log, gives rise to the thought of the humbled state of David's descendants at the time when that staff -- the Virgin Mary-- was springing forth from it. St. Paul relates this prophecy to Jesus Christ (Rom. 15:12)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]3) (Song of Solomon) "The garden is enclosed -- O My sister, My bride, -- the fountainhead is sealed, -- the fountainhead of the garden and the well-spring of living water." "Thy garden is enclosed, O Virgin Mother, and Thy fountainhead is sealed by the Spirit of God, thus did the most-wise one sing in his songs." The word "sealed," according to St. John of Damascus, is a type of the ever-virginity of the Mother of God. And the Church teaches: "The choir of prophets did truly call Thee the sealed fountainhead and the locked door, describing for us the manifest signs of Thy virginity, O All-Hymned One, which Thou didst preserve even after having given birth.http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/Program Notes/mary2_121904.htm[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]B) Other Examples of Typology from The Fathers[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]1) The "Temple of God" She is the Holy of Holies in which God dwelt, and where God met Israel for their salvation. (Ephraim the Syrian, Ambrose, Gregory Nazianzen)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]2) The "Rod of Jesse" from whom blossomed Christ (Irenaeus of Lyons, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Jerome, Ephraim the Syrian) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]3) The "East Gate" (Jerome)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]4) The "King's Palace" (the place which God dwelt) (Ephraim the Syrian, Ambrose)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]5) "More Spacious than the Heavens", which is also the name of the icon of Mary over the altar in an Orthodox Church. This means her womb contained the uncontainable God. (Athanasius of Alexandria, Ephraim the Syrian, Epiphanius of Salamis, Proclus of Constantinople) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]6) The "Imperishable Wood" from which the Ark of the Covenant was fashioned (Hippolytus) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]7) The "Source of the Bread of Life" (Ephraim the Syrian, Peter Chrysologus)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]8) The "Burning Bush that is Not Consumed" a reference to the burning bush of Moses and Hebrews 10, our God is a consuming fire. Mary contained God and was not consumed by the fire of His holiness. (Gregory of Nyssa)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]9) The Untilled Paradise, the Tree of Life: like the Tree of Life in Paradise which grew with no man tilling the soil or planting the seed, Mary bore Christ with no man, and the seed planted by God. She was the tree which bore the Fruit which we eat to gain eternal life, an antitype of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden which bore the fruit of eternal life. (Luke 1:42 “Blessed is the fruit of your womb!”)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Love,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Christina
[/FONT]

 

[Asinner]

[/b]
Right, I mean over God's desire.



LOL.
Yeah, that's not what I meant.

I mean, the thread is interesting, but
God did create man and woman before
the fall, told them, before the fall,
to go forth and multiply, and He said
that the two would become one flesh.

Theres nothing inferior or bad in that.
God liked what He did.

God said when a man finds a wife
he finds a good thing.

According to the Bible, Mary was
married, had sex with her husband
and had other children.

That is what the Bible says, and it's
not at all ambiguous.

If we don't choose truth in small things,
will the Spirit of truth bother to show
us truth anymore?

Perhaps the issue we are having here is that you believe that because virginity is the higher calling; therefore married life is inferior. This is simply untrue. Both roles have their place in God's Kingdom.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

. . . One is good; the other, better.

 

[IamAdopted]

. . . One is good; the other, better.

Better for who?

 

[sunlover1]

Perhaps the issue we are having here is that you believe that because virginity is the higher calling; therefore married life is inferior.

Yes, that would be the logical conclusion
that if virginity is higher than lack of
is lower.

This is simply untrue. Both roles have their place in God's Kingdom.

I agree with that.

My exhortation on truth wasn't a
slam, it was a reminder to all.
A very very important reminder.

If we disregard truth that we're given,
will the Spirit of truth continue to
bother with us (rhetorical question,
needs no answer)

blessings,
sunlover

 

[Asinner]

Yes, that would be the logical deduction
that if virginity is higher than lack of
is lower.


I agree with that.

My exhortation on truth wasn't a
slam, it was a reminder to all.
A very very important reminder.

If we disregard truth that we're given,
will the Spirit of truth continue to
bother with us (rhetorical question,
needs no answer)

blessings,
sunlover

As I stated above . . . One is good, the other, better. Just because something is better, or higher, doesn't make the alternative bad.

 

[IamAdopted]

As I stated above . . . One is good, the other, better. Just because something is better, or higher, doesn't make the alternative bad.

Better for who? This is a question that I would like answered please. Who is this better for?

 

[Uphill Battle]

His Church will remain a virgin. The Theotokos too.

Again, I forward that the virginal church is a figurative, symbolic language. There is obviously no possiblity of sexual congress with the church.

You are taking figurative language, and trying to make a literal point with it.

And Mary's virginity after Jesus is not established, only asserted.

As I stated above . . . One is good, the other, better. Just because something is better, or higher, doesn't make the alternative bad.

no... but you do marginalize others with that belief.

Marriage is not bad, but Virginity is better is a statement that places one above the other, so yes, you are saying that Marriage is lesser.

 

[Mobiosity]

Hi Jarvo

It's nice to see some new faces.

There are many, many Scripture references to the Theotokos. There are OT prophecies of her and there are those in the NT, that give us a glimpse into her character. She was Humble . . . Behold the handmaid of the Lord . . . She was Obedient . . . be it unto me according to thy word. She is venerated by both men and angels . . . And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women and it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb. She is confessed as the mother of God . . . And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? She suffered . . . Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. She Loved . . . Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother. She was Pure . . . How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

From the Old Testament:
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]OT Prophecy and Mary in the Church Fathers[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]A)The Church Fathers understood Ezekiel 44:2 to be a typology of the perpetual virginity of Mary: “And the LORD said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut." The gate of the womb of Mary (the God bearer) was left sacred. For another to enter it would not be proper.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]1)Psalm 67: "the mountain of God is a fertile mountain, a bedewed mountain, a fertile mountain; why gaze you with envy, O ye bedewed mountains? for this is the mountain in which God hath deigned to dwell." Mary, according to the exposition of the Church, is the"mountain fertile, and bedewed by the Spirit” a prophecy of the virgin birth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]2)Christ’s Mother would come from the clan of David: "a staff shall spring forth from the root of Jesse, and a flower shall come up from his root; and the Spirit of God will rest upon him." (Isaiah. 11, 1, 2; 53, 2). The Church understands the Virgin Mary to be that "staff." "A staff did Isaiah call Thee: from it did a beauteous blossom -- Christ [our] God come forth unto us." The expression: "the root of Jesse," coming from the Hebrew for: a stump, a log, gives rise to the thought of the humbled state of David's descendants at the time when that staff -- the Virgin Mary-- was springing forth from it. St. Paul relates this prophecy to Jesus Christ (Rom. 15:12)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]3)(Song of Solomon) "The garden is enclosed -- O My sister, My bride, -- the fountainhead is sealed, -- the fountainhead of the garden and the well-spring of living water." "Thy garden is enclosed, O Virgin Mother, and Thy fountainhead is sealed by the Spirit of God, thus did the most-wise one sing in his songs." The word "sealed," according to St. John of Damascus, is a type of the ever-virginity of the Mother of God. And the Church teaches: "The choir of prophets did truly call Thee the sealed fountainhead and the locked door, describing for us the manifest signs of Thy virginity, O All-Hymned One, which Thou didst preserve even after having given birth.http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/Program Notes/mary2_121904.htm[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]B)Other Examples of Typology from The Fathers[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]1)The "Temple of God" She is the Holy of Holies in which God dwelt, and where God met Israel for their salvation. (Ephraim the Syrian, Ambrose, Gregory Nazianzen)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]2)The "Rod of Jesse" from whom blossomed Christ (Irenaeus of Lyons, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Jerome, Ephraim the Syrian) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]3)The "East Gate" (Jerome)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]4)The "King's Palace" (the place which God dwelt) (Ephraim the Syrian, Ambrose)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]5)"More Spacious than the Heavens", which is also the name of the icon of Mary over the altar in an Orthodox Church. This means her womb contained the uncontainable God. (Athanasius of Alexandria, Ephraim the Syrian, Epiphanius of Salamis, Proclus of Constantinople) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]6)The "Imperishable Wood" from which the Ark of the Covenant was fashioned (Hippolytus) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]7)The "Source of the Bread of Life" (Ephraim the Syrian, Peter Chrysologus)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]8)The "Burning Bush that is Not Consumed" a reference to the burning bush of Moses and Hebrews 10, our God is a consuming fire. Mary contained God and was not consumed by the fire of His holiness. (Gregory of Nyssa)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]9)The Untilled Paradise, the Tree of Life: like the Tree of Life in Paradise which grew with no man tilling the soil or planting the seed, Mary bore Christ with no man, and the seed planted by God. She was the tree which bore the Fruit which we eat to gain eternal life, an antitype of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden which bore the fruit of eternal life. (Luke 1:42 “Blessed is the fruit of your womb!”)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Love,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Christina
[/FONT]

In other words, there are no scriptural references to Mary being perfect or even permanently virgin.

 

[Mobiosity]

Perhaps the issue we are having here is that you believe that because virginity is the higher calling; therefore married life is inferior. This is simply untrue. Both roles have their place in God's Kingdom.

Love,
Christina

Nice try, but you're the one who keeps saying virginity is a higher calling, not sunlover1.

 

[Asinner]

Again, I forward that the virginal church is a figurative, symbolic language. There is obviously no possiblity of sexual congress with the church.

You are taking figurative language, and trying to make a literal point with it.

Please take issue with Paul. He calls the Church a virgin. It speaks of the Church's Purity, Holiness, Chasteness, and Perfection.
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Remember, this is my point! Virginity = Purity

Marriage is not bad, but Virginity is better is a statement that places one above the other, so yes, you are saying that Marriage is lesser.

That's correct. One is the higher way. Good grief! Paul says it and the Church has said it. One is good . . . The other better!

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

Nice try, but you're the one who keeps saying virginity is a higher calling, not sunlover1.

My point being that she was taking issue with the statement "virginity is the higher calling" because the alternative (at least in her eyes) seemed to be that married life was bad. I then said that married life was not bad, it was good . . . virginity is better.

 

[Asinner]

In other words, there are no scriptural references to Mary being perfect or even permanently virgin.

The Scriptures are not explicit on many things! Where in the Scriptures does it state that all three persons of the Holy Trinity are co-eternal and co-equal? This was defined at the Council of Nicea:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]We confess together the evangelical and ancient Faith of the Catholic Church in "the uncreated, consubstantial and coeternal Trinity", promulgated by the Councils of Nicaea (AD 325) and Constantinople (AD 381). "This is the Faith of our baptism that teaches us to believe in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. According to this Faith there is one Godhead, Power and Being of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, equal in Honour, Majesty and eternal Sovereignty in three most perfect Subsistences (en trisi teleiotatais hypostasesin), that is, in three perfect Persons"(trisi teleiois prosopois) (Ep. Syn. Constantinopolitanae, AD 382).

[/SIZE][/FONT] What of baptism? Where does it explicitly state that one must be baptised in water with the Trinitarian formula? It doesn't. It implicity states it. That is why we see many differing doctrines on baptism! There are many other examples, but the fruit of sola scriptura is evident with all of the differing teachings within protestantism. So, no, it does not explicitly state that Mary was perfect. But it most certainly implicity says it.

Love,
Christina[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[IamAdopted]

My point being that she was taking issue with the statement "virginity is the higher calling" because the alternative (at least in her eyes) seemed to be that married life was bad. I then said that married life was not bad, it was good . . . virginity is better.

For who?

 

[Uphill Battle]

The Scriptures are not explicit on many things! Where in the Scriptures does it state that all three persons of the Holy Trinity are co-eternal and co-equal? This was defined at the Council of Nicea:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]We confess together the evangelical and ancient Faith of the Catholic Church in "the uncreated, consubstantial and coeternal Trinity", promulgated by the Councils of Nicaea (AD 325) and Constantinople (AD 381). "This is the Faith of our baptism that teaches us to believe in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. According to this Faith there is one Godhead, Power and Being of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, equal in Honour, Majesty and eternal Sovereignty in three most perfect Subsistences (en trisi teleiotatais hypostasesin), that is, in three perfect Persons"(trisi teleiois prosopois) (Ep. Syn. Constantinopolitanae, AD 382).

[/SIZE][/FONT] What of baptism? Where does it explicitly state that one must be baptised in water with the Trinitarian formula? It doesn't. It implicity states it. That is why we see many differing doctrines on baptism! There are many other examples, but the fruit of sola scriptura is evident with all of the differing teachings within protestantism. So, no, it does not explicitly state that Mary was perfect. But it most certainly implicity says it.

Love,
Christina[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

the trinity is in the bible. Does it say the word trinity? no. but, Scripture shows God as God, Jesus as God, and HS as God. 1+1+1=3. simple, really, just takes some reading and thought.

as for baptism, it's in black and white. Go forth and make diciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

who'd of thunk it.

 

[IamAdopted]

Who is virginity better for?

 

[Asinner]

the trinity is in the bible. Does it say the word trinity? no. but, Scripture shows God as God, Jesus as God, and HS as God. 1+1+1=3. simple, really, just takes some reading and thought.

as for baptism, it's in black and white. Go forth and make diciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

who'd of thunk it.

If it really was as straightforward as you suggest, perhaps there wouldn't be so many different teachings.

 

[Asinner]

I'm off for now. I have a life to live. God Bless!

 

[Uphill Battle]

If it really was as straightforward as you suggest, perhaps there wouldn't be so many different teachings.

perhaps. But then, you can usually smell the rat when the rat walks in.