on tongues?

[AndOne]

I will just stick to the case at hand BB instead of getting bogged down in accusations and stuff , perfection is unatainable for every single person in this life time , yes ? So why does scripture state it is able to make us "perfect" ......................

So you are saying you have already achieved perfection? Really?

 

[AndOne]

The way you interpreted the scripture, as though your interpretation was certainly the case, even though others had already disagreed with you in this thread. You keep saying: "that is not the case", so it's like since you keep saying that, we have to agree with you.

No I'm not saying you have to agree with me. But I'd certainly like to be able to make my case without being misrepresented or misquoted. That's the only thing that rialed me.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

The way I see it, and I'm a cessationist here....the modern tongues movement is man made in it's entirety!
BUT, and this is my catch here....there is nothing wrong with it.
Man has always wanted to get closer to GOD.
In this sense, if people feel closer to GOD by "speaking in tongues" like they did in Acts and other scriptures...there's nothing wrong with it.
The bad part IMHO is when churches promote this as a salvific concept. That's just plain wrong.
It's also the INTERPRETERS that are the charlatans in essence, whether they realize it or not. It's just bad form.

 

[reformed ttL]

hello, new here, i came from a pentecostal background and i learned tongues from other people i would find myself picking up words from other people and incorporating them into my speech i used to feel that because i spoke in tongues i must be saved but my life was as wicked as it always was ,no change, i stopped about 3 years ago listeng to john macaurther. i never saw it interpeted in any sevice i was at.. thanks for this site

 

[cygnusx1]

So you are saying you have already achieved perfection? Really?

I repeat , "perfection is unatainable for every single person in this life time , yes ? So why does scripture state it is able to make us "perfect" ......................"

 

[AndOne]

I repeat , "perfection is unatainable for every single person in this life time , yes ? So why does scripture state it is able to make us "perfect" ......................"

What is the point you are trying to make? You are getting off an a tangent from 2 Timothy that isn't related to the topic at hand and I have no idea where you want to go with this.

 

[nobdysfool]

I repeat , "perfection is unatainable for every single person in this life time , yes ? So why does scripture state it is able to make us "perfect" ......................"

If you're referring to 2Tim 3:17, Check your translations, because most do not say "perfect". The sense of that verse is "adequately prepared", "equipped", "prepared", none of which require perfection, as we tend to understand the concept of perfection, "being perfect", which implies "incapable of improvement". So please define what exactly it is your trying to get across. As it is, there is no conflict, and it appears you have set up a straw man.

 

[cygnusx1]

What is the point you are trying to make? You are getting off an a tangent from 2 Timothy that isn't related to the topic at hand and I have no idea where you want to go with this.

it's not difficult , "perfect" GK. ἄρτιος , artios , used in scripture is used in a completely different way to the way we use that word today , demand that "perfect" , likewise used in 1 Cor 13 means without fault or sin is NOT how scripture uses that word , it's meaning is complete ; fully formed ; mature , as distinguishable from in part , lacking and immature .

Thus all references to when the "perfect" comes should stay within scriptures defintion not how we use that word today ........

1 Cor 13 ; 10 "perfect" GK , telios

Word Origin
from telos
Definition
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
NASB Word Usage
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).


Strong's Greek Dictionary: 5046. teleios

 

[nobdysfool]

it's not difficult , "perfect" GK. ἄρτιος , artios , used in scripture is used in a completely different way to the way we use that word today , demand that "perfect" , likewise used in 1 Cor 13 means without fault or sin is NOT how scripture uses that word , it's meaning is complete ; fully formed ; mature , as distinguishable from in part , lacking and immature .

Thus all references to when the "perfect" comes should stay within scriptures defintion not how we use that word today ........

1 Cor 13 ; 10 "perfect" GK , telios

Word Origin
from telos
Definition
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
NASB Word Usage
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).


Strong's Greek Dictionary: 5046. teleios

But, that still doesn't nail down that 1 Cor 13:10 means the canon of scripture. In fact, the context argues against such an interpretation. The Perfect being spoken of, the completion, is Christ at His Return. That fits with the context.

 

[cygnusx1]

But, that still doesn't nail down that 1 Cor 13:10 means the canon of scripture. In fact, the context argues against such an interpretation. The Perfect being spoken of, the completion, is Christ at His Return. That fits with the context.

you seem to be missing the context , it's that which is in part (Divine supernatural revelation via prophecy tongues/with interprattion of tongues etc ) which is being contrasted with THAT which is to come ......... not Christ who is not an 'it' but a person.

the early believers had knowledge of God only in part until that knowledge was made more fully certain and complete ..... it is Divine knowledege the Apostle is dealing with and the difference between knowing in part and knowing "in full" ... ie, a complete revelation , which we now have .

the parousia of Christ is not even mentioned in 1 Cor 12 13 14 , thus that argument is without foundation .

 

[AndOne]

I'm sorry Cyg - but none of what you are saying makes any sense to me. In verse 12 of 1 Cor 13 Paul makes it clear that he is talking about an event that hasn't happened yet - "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully."

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm sorry Cyg - but none of what you are saying makes any sense to me. In verse 12 of 1 Cor 13 Paul makes it clear that he is talking about an event that hasn't happened yet - "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully."

sure , it hadn't happened at the time the Apostle wrote 1 Cor ..... still , he didn't indicate the childlike state would remain , maturity was on the horizon see the parrallel passage in Eph 2 through 4 .... the Church is not in it's infancy period , hasn't been for hundreds of years , the foundation of Apostles and prophets and their purpose has been laid . The perfect (complete revelation ) has come , when does "knowledge " pass away ? can't be heaven

 

[nobdysfool]

sure , it hadn't happened at the time the Apostle wrote 1 Cor ..... still , he didn't indicate the childlike state would remain , maturity was on the horizon see the parrallel passage in Eph 2 through 4 .... the Church is not in it's infancy period , hasn't been for hundreds of years , the foundation of Apostles and prophets and their purpose has been laid . The perfect (complete revelation ) has come , when does "knowledge " pass away ? can't be heaven

OK so when DOES knowledge pass away? Daniel states that knowledge shall increase, and we're still seeing that happen even now. Knowledge isn't yet complete, and it would be foolish to state that it is. And let's keep on point here, there is a difference between knowledge being complete, and knowledge passing away.

"I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all" - Paul the Apostle

 

[cygnusx1]

OK so when DOES knowledge pass away? Daniel states that knowledge shall increase, and we're still seeing that happen even now. Knowledge isn't yet complete, and it would be foolish to state that it is. And let's keep on point here, there is a difference between knowledge being complete, and knowledge passing away.

"I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all" - Paul the Apostle

the knowledge spoken of in 1 Cor 13 is not knowledge per se , it is that supernatural knowledge akin to revelation which revealed God's word in part , it was a spiritual gift , this type of knowledge passes away when that which it's completion comes , ie , it is replaced by a full "perfect" revelation .... no new doctrines , no new truths , no new revelations , no new scriptures , no new Apostles or Prophets bringing more revelation , instead a full revelation even that which typified the contrast between Moses and the other prophets , Moses is unlike the other prophets because He met with God face to face , ie , his revelation was exceedingly fuller.

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face . Deut 34:10


Exodus 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

cross reference , 1 Cor 13 :12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.

the real question seeing as the revelatory gifts are concurrant with an immature Church , when I was a child ..... but when I became a man , etc .... when is the Church expected to reach maturity ? in heaven ? is that really God's program for His bride to place her (and us) in a infantile existence till we reach heaven ? God forbid !!

Or to gift the Church for a season with the express purpose and necessary temporary gifts to make a mature and stable Church founded eventually upon a full and final sufficient revelation knowledge , scripture.

without seeing a timetable much confusion must follow . such as shall we expect a revelation for my needs , shall we expect a local Apostle to arise , or a local prophet , or something new from an outburst of tongues/interpretation . Scripture needs no such suppliments , it is sufficient. That means it is fully sufficient to it's goal ;

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

notice , no gift of God except scripture is even mentioned in the above text , because scripture needs no suppliment , wish to be "perfect" complete , fully formed ? tongues ; interpretation ; prophecies ; knowledge etc etc cannot do it , neither do they furnish us unto all good works , only scripture has that place , the rest had a temporary purpose leading to this.

 

[cygnusx1]

"I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all" - Paul the Apostle

the problem of trichotomy and modern day "tongues" , are tongues mindless ?

"Trichotomists, Charismatics, and 1 Corinthians 14" by David Brown

 

[AndOne]

sure , it hadn't happened at the time the Apostle wrote 1 Cor ..... still , he didn't indicate the childlike state would remain , maturity was on the horizon see the parrallel passage in Eph 2 through 4 .... the Church is not in it's infancy period , hasn't been for hundreds of years , the foundation of Apostles and prophets and their purpose has been laid . The perfect (complete revelation ) has come , when does "knowledge " pass away ? can't be heaven

It just seems to me that you are making an assumption here - namely that the perfect is the same thing as "complete revelation." It is simply an assumption that I am not willing to make at this point in time. Doesn't mean I won't change my mind - but I can't based upon this sort of reasoning.

For the record - I have yet to practice this gift myself. I'm not even sure I have seen it done legitimately. My whole argument is based on my understanding of the texts - not personal experience.

 

[cygnusx1]

It just seems to me that you are making an assumption here - namely that the perfect is the same thing as "complete revelation." It is simply an assumption that I am not willing to make at this point in time. Doesn't mean I won't change my mind - but I can't based upon this sort of reasoning.

yes , except I see it as sticking directly to the context of what Paul is speaking about , the "in part" is directly related to that which is to come , you can see it as assumption , I see it as the text states.

For the record - I have yet to practice this gift myself. I'm not even sure I have seen it done legitimately. My whole argument is based on my understanding of the texts - not personal experience.

yes , that reminds me of the serious dilema James Packer spoke of ;

J.I. Packer, professor of theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, explains this point well in his evaluation of Puritan theologian John Owen’s view of the sign gifts:

Since the presumption against any such renewal is strong, and liability to ‘enthusiasm’ is part of the infirmity of every regenerate man, any extra-rational manifestation like glossolalia needs to be watched and tested most narrowly, over a considerable period of time, before one can, even provisionally, venture to ascribe it to God.
​

Since one can never conclusively prove that any charismatic manifestation is identical with what is claimed as its New Testament counterpart, one can never in any particular case have more than a tentative and provisional opinion, open to constant reconsideration as time and life go on.[FONT=&quot][34][/FONT]

that doesn't instill any would be confidence , yet scripture does.

two paths here diverge ..........

my position is that of the Apostle Peter , even a word from God directly from the mount of transfiguration is less certain than scripture !

I'll stick with Sola Scriptura .Far safer and I cannot think of even one thing I lack due to leaving alleged tongues and prophecies behind , just as long as I have scripture in my head and heart with the Holy Spirit as my help , 'tis enough.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am going to comment on a previous post where someone said that they do believe there is a genuine gift of tongues but he has yet to see it.

Actually, if the gift of tongues is being used correctly, according to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, he will never see it, because Paul strongly advocates the speaking of tongues in the private prayer room, speaking only to God, the one Person in the universe who can actually understand what is being spoken.

I agree that most of what people see when others are going around willy nilly speaking in tongues out loud with no interpretation, is a show of the flesh and not of the Spirit, so I cannot see how they could be using the gift in a genuine way seeing that they are not using it according to God's will.

God's will is reflected in the teaching of Scripture, so when a person, in faith, speaks in tongues privately to God, he is using it within God's will according to the guidelines of Scripture. There is no one except God who can tell that person that he is using it falsely.

But yes, I believe that many Pentecostals and Charismatics have shot themselves in the foot in their efforts to convince others that the gift of tongues is genuine and for today by using it according to their own will instead of God's will.

The Holy Spirit will always honour God's will, and will abandon those who insist on doing their own will independently of God, even though they say they are moving in the Spirit. A person moving in the Holy Spirit will always be in God's will as clearly taught by Scripture.

By the way, I am a Presbyterian elder, and a passionate Calvinist.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

sure , it hadn't happened at the time the Apostle wrote 1 Cor ..... still , he didn't indicate the childlike state would remain , maturity was on the horizon see the parrallel passage in Eph 2 through 4 .... the Church is not in it's infancy period , hasn't been for hundreds of years , the foundation of Apostles and prophets and their purpose has been laid . The perfect (complete revelation ) has come , when does "knowledge " pass away ? can't be heaven

Oh.. I thought that Paul was teaching that the perfect that is to come is the revelation of the Bride of Christ, the Invisible Church, who are going to accompany Him after meeting Him in the air on the last day, and then will be revealed to the world. I don't see anything clearly stated in Scripture that the "perfect" is any type of perfect revelation. Sounds like a speculation to me, while the teaching about the revelation of the Bride of Christ is clearly taught in Scripture, bringing in a time when we will be fellowshipping with Christ face to face and therefore not needing tongues, prophecy, or natural knowledge any more.

 

[AndOne]

Actually, if the gift of tongues is being used correctly, according to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, he will never see it, because Paul strongly advocates the speaking of tongues in the private prayer room, speaking only to God, the one Person in the universe who can actually understand what is being spoken.

With all due respect - there is nothing in 1 Corinthians 14 about a private prayer room. Verse 13 indicates that it can in deed be public because it calls for interpretation. The gift of interpreting tongues itself is listed in 1 Cor chapter 12 which indicates it is also a public gift at times...