On the value of Vaccines.

[A_Thinker]

That's interesting.

I wonder how universally the MMR vaccine is administered to children world-wide ...

Looks like vaccination against Measles and Rubella is pretty universal ...

From ... Measles & Rubella Infographic - Measles & Rubella Initiative

More than 50% of the 20.8 million children who did not receive one dose of measles vaccine in 2016 came from only 6 countries

Nigeria 3.3 million
India 2.9 million
Pakistan 2.0 million
Indonesia 1.1 million
Ethiopia 0.9 million
DR Congo 0.7 million

 

[Ophiolite]

My observation is that some people see things in black and white. There are no shades of grey, no uncertainty, no doubt. Either something is good, or it is bad. There are no other options.

For these people, if there are instances where a vaccine has caused harm then their conclusion is clear: vaccines are bad. That easily morphs into the view that if a vaccine might have caused harm, then it is crazy to use it, since it might be bad. Why expose yourself to an unnecessary risk?

Presenting the case that not taking the vaccine could be even worse won't get through, because the decision - "Vaccine bad!" - has already been made.

My solution leans towards being upfront, in detail, about the risks, but also in detail about the benefits. Unfortunately, that approach relies upon open minds and rational thinking. Those don't seem to be a strong suit with the anti-vaxers. As with the nay-sayers in the current crisis the problem could be left to sort itself out if the only people impacted were those who opposed vaccination, but their children and the community at large are also potential victims.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It is an unwritten law of the forum that no thread should remain on topic beyond post #8. Since some threads exceed this limit the average is restored by ones like this that are placed in the wrong sub-forum.

In order to contribute to this institutional disorganisation it is important, certainly by Page 2 of a thread, to pay absolutely no heed to the Opening Post, or Thread Title. Regular members should also begin making posts that push their own agendas and hobby-horses from Page 3 onwards. (Immediately in the case of @OldWiseGuy and @xianghua.)

This disinformation and fake news has been brought to you by the Committee for Public Nonsense. Don't try this at home!

I actually try to relate my tangents to the thread topic. That some don't get it isn't my fault.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Simply put: Vaccination saves lives

But don't vaccines contribute to overpopulation and poor general health, which will eventually lead to greater problems? We have thwarted the natural attrition that keeps populations in check.

 

[pitabread]

But don't vaccines contribute to overpopulation and poor general health, which will eventually lead to greater problems?

I thought you were in favor of people boosting their immune systems?

 

[Emsmom1]

But don't vaccines contribute to overpopulation and poor general health, which will eventually lead to greater problems? We have thwarted the natural attrition that keeps populations in check.

How do vaccines contribute to "poor general health?" I guess I can see the overpopulation argument, although I don't think it's a good one-it doesn't really seem nice to let children die to control the population numbers.

 

[Ophiolite]

But don't vaccines contribute to overpopulation

No. One of the principle reasons those in poor environments have so many children is to ensure enough of them survive to look after the parents in their old age. Ensure a higher survival rate and population growth slows and eventually, in concert with increasing wealth, halts.

But don't vaccines contribute to . . . . . poor general health

No. What makes you think they do?

But don't vaccines . . . . eventually lead to greater problems?

The "no" answers to the conditional statements mean there is nothing to lead to greater problems.

We have thwarted the natural attrition that keeps populations in check.

Dr. Malthus, a compassionate(?) Christian cleric, made this point as the 18th century morphed into the 19th. It provided half of the puzzle that Darwin resolved with the publication of On the Origin of Species some fifty years later.

That same compassionate(?) argument from the good doctor served as an excuse for government ministers and the elite of the UK to allow the Irish potato famine to run its course with the deaths of some one million persons.

You seem to be in favour of the approach. Why? (And, before someone asks, Darwin and evolutionary theory also speak extensively of cooperation. Survival of the fittest is a 19th century soundbite, with all the limitations that soundbites have today.)

 

[Billy UK]

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[Ophiolite]

US National Library of Medicine
National Institutes of Health
Search database

Link to Official Scientific Study Below
( All Information From Their Own Scientific Study)

The Introduction of Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis and Oral Polio Vaccine Among Young Infants in an Urban African Community: A Natural Experiment

5. Conclusions

DTP was associated with 5-fold higher mortality than being unvaccinated. No prospective study has shown beneficial survival effects of DTP. Unfortunately, DTP is the most widely used vaccine, and the proportion who receives DTP3 is used globally as an indicator of the performance of national vaccination programs.

It should be of concern that the effect of routine vaccinations on all-cause mortality was not tested in randomized trials. All currently available evidence suggests that DTP vaccine may kill more children from other causes than it saves from diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis. Though a vaccine protects children against the target disease it may simultaneously increase susceptibility to unrelated infections.

The recently published SAGE review called for randomized trials of DTP (Higgins et al., 2014). However, at the same time the IVIR-AC committee to which SAGE delegated the follow-up studies of the NSEs of vaccines has indicated that it will not be possible to examine the effect of DTP in an unbiased way. If that decision by IVIR-AC remains unchallenged, the present study may remain the closest we will ever come to a RCT of the NSEs of DTP.



Other Relevant Information From Other Official Statistics

How much has the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program paid out ?

As of October 2019, $4.2 Billion in compensation (not including attorneys fees and

costs) has been awarded over the thirty-three year history of the program.

Do you want to cite the conclusions of the research that re-examined these findings and their proposed solutions, or do wish to keep playing the cherry-picking card?

Do you want to honestly compare the number of individuals benefitting from the the compensation program, for any reason, with the number of lives saved, or do you want to continue focusing on the slim evidence that supports your agenda?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I thought you were in favor of people boosting their immune systems?

I am, but we need fewer people.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

How do vaccines contribute to "poor general health?" I guess I can see the overpopulation argument, although I don't think it's a good one-it doesn't really seem nice to let children die to control the population numbers.

People need fewer pills and shots, and better lifestyle choices. The more we know about health the less we seem to practice it. Pills and shots shouldn't replace good health habits.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That same compassionate(?) argument from the good doctor served as an excuse for government ministers and the elite of the UK to allow the Irish potato famine to run its course with the deaths of some one million persons.

You seem to be in favour of the approach. Why? (And, before someone asks, Darwin and evolutionary theory also speak extensively of cooperation. Survival of the fittest is a 19th century soundbite, with all the limitations that soundbites have today.)

All of that predates the work of such as Sir Albert Howard, who made a strong case for soil health contributing to human health through healthy food plants, which has been largely ignored by most. Our health is so poor that we can only survive by creating potions that incapacitate pathogens. We have poor natural immunity, as is evidenced by the current Covid-19 pandemic.

 

[Shemjaza]

I am, but we need fewer people.

Nah.

Population is an almost useless measure of waste and consumption. The relatively small population of the developed world doesn't have much in the way of population growth, but consumes vastly more resources then the developing world.

Also, the concept of deliberately allowing preventable diseases loose to cull the human population, for whatever reason, seems tantamount to allowing murder.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Do you want to cite the conclusions of the research that re-examined these findings and their proposed solutions, or do wish to keep playing the cherry-picking card?

Do you want to honestly compare the number of individuals benefitting from the the compensation program, for any reason, with the number of lives saved, or do you want to continue focusing on the slim evidence that supports your agenda?

Could you please cite the research? I quickly verified that the vaccine is safe and widely used, but didn't find the research you mentioned.

 

[Ophiolite]

Could you please cite the research? I quickly verified that the vaccine is safe and widely used, but didn't find the research you mentioned.

Certainly. This link, for nine papers that cite the research referenced by @Billy UK, is within the link provided by him. The implicit thrust of my post was that Billy was forming an absolute conclusion from a single piece of research without any of the nuances that such important issues demand. You can see that questions are raised, but Billy's aboslute message "vaccines bad" is, at best, ill informed and at worst, deliberately deceptive.

 

[Billy UK]

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[Billy UK]

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[Ophiolite]

My message is what I have posted and that message is that vaccines have been known to be harmful and dangerous to the point of death.

Who do you think is disagreeing with that obvious statement? I'm not. I doubt anyone informed on the subject would think that. Should we prohibit all appendectomies because some people die during the operation? Introduce your own equivalent example for any of the thousands of medical interventions.

My premise is because currently the vaccine that is being created and rushed through without the proper animal testing and human testing phases that can take up to 20 years are by fact not scientifically proven to be effective and safe as to prove that you follow the procedure below and with clinical evidence prove it doesn't harm in the long run which requires time

What is your evidence that "proper animal testing and human testing phases" are being ignored? Do you understand that perhaps the principal reason development programs normally take as long as they do is the budget assigned to them. Money can be a powerful accelerant.

Also with the talk of enforcing vaccinations why should someone have the right to force an unscientifically provenly effective and safe vaccine into someone's body.

At present, certainly within the UK, there is no plan to enforce such vaccinations. If you think there are such plans please provide the evidence and make sure it is sufficient to counter the specific remarks of the government to the contrary.

Did it work out well for those who got that DTP vaccine that went through proper trials and went on to kill more children at 5 fold rate by making them more susceptible to other diseases through a weakened immune system.

And you still haven't bothered to look at the follow up data. Why should I take your warnings seriously? You damage a potentially valuable note of caution with what approaches hysteria.

But by fast-tracking the development of therapeutic strategies, are key steps being skipped? What risk are we taking by bypassing animal testing?

Those are good questions. I think you should focus on them, rather than pretend that you already have the answers.

 

[Ophiolite]

It is said that only something like one percent go on to make a claim for compensation. Most people never link their condition to be a side effect of a vaccination. They just get medicated not understanding the cause of their new problem even though such side effects are listed on vaccination leaflet inserts which they rarely bother to read.

"It is said." My, how convincing. "It is said."
With that fatuous post you have earned the right to be disregarded.

 

[Billy UK]

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