On the strength of the testimonial evidence for modern miracles

[topher694]

Thank you. I am curious though. If you cannot measure Hinn according to the stick Jesus gave us how would you expect anyone else to be able to?

I didn't say I couldn't, I said I wasn't. Not here.

 

[Joan Lamb]

I didn't say I couldn't, I said I wasn't. Not here.

I don't understand why expressing your opinion would be unhelpful. It might be very useful.

 

[perpendicular_bisector]

 

[topher694]

I don't understand why expressing your opinion would be unhelpful. It might be very useful.

I have my reasons

 

[Joan Lamb]

I have my reasons

Can you share your reasons if not your reasoning?

 

[topher694]

Can you share your reasons if not your reasoning?

Can you respect my boundaries and my wishes? Because it doesn't seem like it.

 

[lismore]

I have attended Benny Hinn's meetings in London.

Was that in the Excel Centre Docklands by any chance? I visited a morning meeting there about 2006 with BH. God Bless

 

[lismore]

Can you share your reasons if not your reasoning?

Discerning of spirits is a spiritual gift 1 Cor. 12:10, perhaps not everyone is comfortable talking about it.

 

[ARBITER01]

I've seen you mention about this guy twice now. I watched his sermon based around his upbringing and the story associated with it, and I wonder if we are suppose to air out our grievances before the public as Christians?

Has anyone asked themselves that?

Just looking at the fruit of this guy's ministry and his recent rise to stardom based on badmouthing and putting down another Christian (and a family member at that),... it makes me wonder just how truthful all of this really is, and the motives really associated with it.

Personally, I think Mr. Hinn has a really good calling to bible teaching, and he tried to operate outside of that calling, and it produced a lot of problems for himself. I've recently purchased quite a few of Benny's early 2000's teachings on CD and DVD and they are really good. Of course The Holy Spirit does point out areas where he veered off course, but there wasn't as many areas where he was wrong than I thought he would be.

Anyways, I wanted to comment on this because I don't think GOD really desires for any of us to making a living off of putting someone else down.

 

[topher694]

Anyways, I wanted to comment on this because I don't think GOD really desires for any of us to making a living off of putting someone else down.

This

 

[sunlover1]

Short version: is the testimonial evidence for modern miracles compelling?

Longer version:

In post #86 of another thread I said the following:

Talking about Swordsman1, I just revived an old thread where I had an intense back-and-forth exchange of arguments with him on continuationism vs cessationism. You can read my latest post here.

Instead of debating exegesis of passages, you will notice that I intentionally narrowed the discussion to epistemology. My impression is that Cessationists tend to have a very inconsistent way of processing and interpreting testimonial evidence. When you present modern accounts of miracles to them, their response is pretty much indistinguishable from that of an atheist. Yet when you point to the miracle accounts in the Bible, they immediately take off their atheist hat and put on their believer hat. That's inconsistency at its finest. At least atheists are consistent and remain skeptical in front of all miracles without making exceptions or special pleadings.
​

To which @lismore responded with some good points in post #95. Quote:

There's a principle in the bible:

"by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established” (Deuteronomy 19:15)
“that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established” (Matthew 18:16)
2 Corinthians 13:1 "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

In my experience much of what is presented as 'testimonial evidence' of many things in Charismatic/ Pentecostal circles does not meet this standard. Sometimes it is vague, ambiguous or contradictory, unverifiable, lacking detail, presented by un-accountable, self promoting persons. Salesmen presenting rumours as fact.

The corporate reaction too is often suspect, material of ambiguous authenticity is not weighed or tested, it's promoted, even sold. Those revealed, even jailed, as con-men can continue, no questions asked.

[...]

Comparing this to the biblical standard:

1 Corinthians 15 The Resurrection of Christ
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

There were many appearances of the risen Lord, one to over 500 witnesses and all involving persons who could be contacted and asked.
​

In other words, lismore seems to suggest that the testimonial evidence for modern miracles is weak, whereas the testimonial evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is strong. Do you agree?

Is it rational to believe in Biblical miracles on the basis of 1st century testimonies?
Is it rational to believe in modern miracles on the basis of modern testimonies?

Is the supernatural "rational"?
It's all by faith friend.
You wouldn't believe what happened to me last month.
But it did and I was there.
God is very much cool enough to use who He will.
He loves to confound the wise.
Nothing new under the sun there!

 

[Blade]

My natural, first action when it comes to miracles wants to question yet something I can't shake from my heart "“love believes all things,". Is that your first thought to just believe them or do you first have to question it? One is of faith one is not. One is spiritual one is worldly. I know some in this world disagree but Satan cannot do miracles. Its called "lying wonders" because its not real not true. He can not create. So a miracle happen that is not from Satan then.. hello its from God and Him alone. HAHA well just thinking.. to us a miracle is something we never see that much of if ever. HAHA yet a breath.. the sun still hanging there..the wind. A fallen world that GOD keeps standing every moment of ever second of ever day...haha and sorry just what power does Satan have.

Now this is for me other then "love believes all things". I have to take at what is written. The best moments with my Father came by me not questioning but just doing, just believing walking by faith.

"modern miracles is weak" no I think its only in places where there is great doubt. Other countries happens ever day. Try just being around that.. hearing it seeing it every day. Never hearing reading doubt unbelief. Watch what happens changes in your life. We go to places and on the net full of FAITH or more doubt and worldly things?

Miracles.. "Faith" is there some end to it? Only so far we can go with faith? "Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." He was talking about " tithe into the storehouse" yet haha to just believe.. wanna see GOD really move? Well how much can you believe? Take Stephen..oh man makes me cry.. "But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God"

A Jesus is seated not standing.. yet after everything Stephen said.. Christ stood!